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DPS Mercs offer nothing to the team...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Commando / Mercenary
DPS Mercs offer nothing to the team...

Floplag's Avatar


Floplag
03.10.2016 , 09:58 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by DerSchneider View Post
You do realise that most dps specs need a ramp up? Snipers ambush needs a ramp up. Virulence needs to waste 3 globals before start actually doing damage. Engineering the same. Marauder only in fury has instant burst. They provide additional team utility, because they are pure dps classes.
What team utility does assassin provide besides sap? Pt dps besides taunt? Ops if he doesn't want to sacrifice his damage?
And who said jugg tanks ALWAYS hit for 15k? Crushing blow doesn't autocrit. Tanks are OP, but not only jugg.
Yesterday I died because of 8k cascading debris hit. It's more than 30K SINGLE TARGET DAMAGE IN 1 ABILITY (with force potency).
What about PT tank doing 2,5k dps in arenas with passive mitigation that he doesn't even have to worry about cooldowns timing.
Never said otherwise, you are right on all points, I'm just saying dont quote top end numbers as though they are baseline.
Floplag - Merc/Mando
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Floplag
03.10.2016 , 09:59 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by MuskyBoy View Post
Mercs are trash because no class in the game is as reliant on their teammates to survive more then 10 seconds in an arena. The suggestion that mercs are fine but just require a higher skill cap is rubbish, they require a higher skill cap of teamwork. In essence they are class which needs to be babysat in an arena to perform and/or have an opponent team which is made up of a favourable composition. Put simply your success in an arena as a merc is beyond your control.
This is actually a very well put statement.
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Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
03.10.2016 , 12:12 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by MuskyBoy View Post
Mercs are trash because no class in the game is as reliant on their teammates to survive more then 10 seconds in an arena. The suggestion that mercs are fine but just require a higher skill cap is rubbish, they require a higher skill cap of teamwork. In essence they are class which needs to be babysat in an arena to perform and/or have an opponent team which is made up of a favourable composition. Put simply your success in an arena as a merc is beyond your control.
Yeah, I have to agree with this too.

No where is it more evident than when you are on your merc dps, and you get placed on a 4v4 against a premade, and your team is not.

This fight comes down to your own ability merged with your teams, and when your team is weak and/or uncoordinated you really get to experience the frailty of the merc.

On other classes you can actually still manage some survival and you might even put up fair numbers.

On the merc, you WILL get focused first, and you WILL die in mere seconds putting out no damage because you go into full survival mode.

Full survival mode for the merc dps is kite away, use defensives, use weak self heals, then face the inevitable which is to die really, really fast.

It's the most frustrating class to play in this kind of match for me, bar none. I imagine snipers probably also face this, alas I don't play the class to compare though.

Merc puts out nice damage, but they cannot defend themselves effectively and continue to put out damage which is why they are easy to shutdown when they have weak support.
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TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
03.10.2016 , 03:09 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by MuskyBoy View Post
Mercs are trash because no class in the game is as reliant on their teammates to survive more then 10 seconds in an arena. The suggestion that mercs are fine but just require a higher skill cap is rubbish, they require a higher skill cap of teamwork. In essence they are class which needs to be babysat in an arena to perform and/or have an opponent team which is made up of a favourable composition. Put simply your success in an arena as a merc is beyond your control.
Extremely well phrased. This is it in a nutshell.
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KashyyykForest's Avatar


KashyyykForest
03.11.2016 , 05:29 PM | #25
One thing kinda struck me as I was actually thinking about this topic myself a few days ago. Gunnery Commandos have niice burst, yet don't have any laser like snipers do on their big burst move, which gives your target ample notice to los or activate a dcd. Or the flashy grenades on the target like Powertechs have. In that sense their burst seems kinda 'stealthy'.

I was in a Novare Coast with 4 guildies a few days ago. Three of us in Gunnery spec, and a sage healer. As usual sorcs were out in force on the other team. At the start of the match most of the team went to cap south as usual, and 2 of us mandos went behind the node. Our target caller on ts calls out, "(player name) is a sorc healer, marked", as the 2 of us open our rotations on him. Then a few seconds later, literally, he says "Errrrr...was a sorc healer." It was so funny at the time, wish I could have recorded it.

The rest of the match went pretty downhill for the other team, they weren't too good though. So I thought, maybe that's how they are meant to be used? Get 2-3 in a group using focus target, doing quick target swaps to whoever is squishy using easy mode 30m range, quickly burst them down, maybe throw in an electronet, profit? Although I'm sure a really good tank would be bad, those are kinda rare, even on premades. This is also just regs, but I am curious how it would work against better teams.

khaos-theory's Avatar


khaos-theory
03.13.2016 , 01:12 PM | #26
Yes, DPS mercs tend to suffer when focused consistently without support, mainly in solo ranked style situations. However, they by no means bring nothing to the team in regs and 4s.

Since the MM/Eng surge nerf, Arsenal arguably became the best ranged burst spec. It is thus one of the best sorc healer killers that is not as directly vulnerable to bubble stun, kbs, hardstuns, etc from the healers or healer support when attacking like the bursty melee-ish classes often are (AP, carnage, etc).

I fairly often will get 8-10k Primings + 20-25k HSMs + 13-15k RS all in a window of around 4.5s. That in addition to a properly timed Enet, interrupts, and stuns will often utterly f up an unguarded healer regardless of skill level... or just about anyone for that matter. Does it require buildup? Yes, but most of the highest burst moves and move combinations do.

Innovative Ordinance is often lacking. You can often chain 2 ~15k Magshots, get some awkwardly awesome dot spreads going, and get a well timed Enet off... but it does not seemingly bring as much to the table as Arse.

Is DPS merc lacking in various survivability aspects? Yes, of course.
Does it offer nothing to the team? I would definitely say no.
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nalkel's Avatar


nalkel
03.14.2016 , 06:44 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by khaos-theory View Post
Yes, DPS mercs tend to suffer when focused consistently without support, mainly in solo ranked style situations. However, they by no means bring nothing to the team in regs and 4s.

Since the MM/Eng surge nerf, Arsenal arguably became the best ranged burst spec. It is thus one of the best sorc healer killers that is not as directly vulnerable to bubble stun, kbs, hardstuns, etc from the healers or healer support when attacking like the bursty melee-ish classes often are (AP, carnage, etc).

I fairly often will get 8-10k Primings + 20-25k HSMs + 13-15k RS all in a window of around 4.5s. That in addition to a properly timed Enet, interrupts, and stuns will often utterly f up an unguarded healer regardless of skill level... or just about anyone for that matter. Does it require buildup? Yes, but most of the highest burst moves and move combinations do.

Innovative Ordinance is often lacking. You can often chain 2 ~15k Magshots, get some awkwardly awesome dot spreads going, and get a well timed Enet off... but it does not seemingly bring as much to the table as Arse.

Is DPS merc lacking in various survivability aspects? Yes, of course.
Does it offer nothing to the team? I would definitely say no.
I do agree with that.
But if the question was "do merc/mando DPS bring enough utilities compare to other classes to be used by competition-oriented PvP players", the answer would be "NO".

One of the thing that bothers me most in the commando kit is the ****** stealth detection : it is not large enough to protect from being mezzed by a random stealth player when the detection is ON. Just because the mezz distance is larger than the detection zone radius... How usefull !

Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
03.14.2016 , 08:00 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by nalkel View Post
One of the thing that bothers me most in the commando kit is the ****** stealth detection : it is not large enough to protect from being mezzed by a random stealth player when the detection is ON. Just because the mezz distance is larger than the detection zone radius... How usefull !
Stealth Scan should never be used like that. It has essentially two uses - to pop someone out of stealth who you know is there but can't see (eg, they JUST stealthed, or you caught a quick glimpse of them and saw the direction in which they were headed). Or, to temporarily deny someone stealthed passage through an area (eg. bridge or passage in voidstar, mid entrance in hypergate). Ok, maybe three uses if you include dropping SS on someone you think is about to vanish.

For 'hail mary' guesswork, you're best off using sweeping blasters.
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nalkel's Avatar


nalkel
03.14.2016 , 06:47 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
Stealth Scan should never be used like that. It has essentially two uses - to pop someone out of stealth who you know is there but can't see (eg, they JUST stealthed, or you caught a quick glimpse of them and saw the direction in which they were headed). Or, to temporarily deny someone stealthed passage through an area (eg. bridge or passage in voidstar, mid entrance in hypergate). Ok, maybe three uses if you include dropping SS on someone you think is about to vanish.

For 'hail mary' guesswork, you're best off using sweeping blasters.
yeah, sure.
That's why I say it is almost useless !

Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
03.14.2016 , 07:28 PM | #30
I'd prefer a shorter cooldown, but it's not terrible. Used correctly it can turn around a 1v1 situation against a stealther and add utility to a team. Certainly not almost useless.

If I could make any change to the ability, I'd probably add a pulsing 1 damage hit that interrupted caps so it could also be used for node denial. But for its intended anti-stealth purpose it does the job well enough.
Zacharďah - Commando / Chasso, Aargh - Merc
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2.4 is the PvP Patch! ... J/K, Removing RWZs trolololol