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Time for a PvP Fix


fungihoujo

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The only problems I see with sorc damage is getting off casts and really ARMOR.

 

Our damage would be a lot more reliable if so much of our damage wasn't mitigated by armor. In pve our damage goes way up on a target with the marauder or sniper armor debuff. This is a slight problem as a large chunk of our damage comes from force lightning, lightning strike, crushing darkness and chain lightning all of which are mitigated by armor.

 

If we had better ways to get off casts and a semi reliable way to help us against heavy armor targets I think our damage would be in a great place right now.

 

Other than that we would need

 

General: A defensive cooldown

Madness: Better force regen mechanic, some decent way of accomplishing burst outside of death field

Lightning: maybe a lower cooldown on polarity shift? its a long cooldown for the only tool we have to get casts off under pressure and its not like it makes us immune to cc or anything

 

 

That and I still want something like the drain life, fear or battle meditation abilities that were in KOTOR I and KOTOR II :cool:

Edited by AdmiralParmesan
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How is it decent burst every 2 mins? You can burst someone every 15ish seconds. Do you want me to link dozens of ss from the past week of me breaking 5k cl's every match? This past match I hit a sentinel for 5300 tb and 5433 cl back to back. What class can burst higher than that in the span of 2 seconds? None. My burst rotation is similar to depreva except I do tb and cl back to back followed by fl and shock. Even if you hit someone with cds up, that's still a good 8-10k with all of those spells....assuming you're geared properly.

 

As depreva also mentioned, unless people know you really well on your server, chances are you're gonna drop a bomb on them before they know what hit them. As he also said, it's very smart to tab affliction on multiple targets so you can switch at any time and burst when they have no cds up.

 

I think that sent was undergeared too, and that burst you keep quoting just isn't reliable, you need a proc for it to happen, hence you can't guarantee it's up when you need it. Sweep then dispatch could easily do the same, probably more. A sniper can easily match that burst, never mind a powertech, and the powertech's is guaranteed and not interruptable.

And with regards to another post, I have been hit for 6.9k by a jug smash with 1200ish expertise and mostly full EWH - it happens.

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I think that sent was undergeared too, and that burst you keep quoting just isn't reliable, you need a proc for it to happen, hence you can't guarantee it's up when you need it. Sweep then dispatch could easily do the same, probably more. A sniper can easily match that burst, never mind a powertech, and the powertech's is guaranteed and not interruptable.

And with regards to another post, I have been hit for 6.9k by a jug smash with 1200ish expertise and mostly full EWH - it happens.

 

i agree that other classes can do it more easily and more consistently. i also agree burst happens on us. it's just not as bad as the doomsayers on the forums claim. they act like they are interrupted, cleansed, stunned, smashed every 10 seconds. at my gear level though, i would say my burst is very consistent. i'm almost always number one damage in every wz and always hitting 4k-5ks every time i get on someone.

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i agree that other classes can do it more easily and more consistently. i also agree burst happens on us. it's just not as bad as the doomsayers on the forums claim. they act like they are interrupted, cleansed, stunned, smashed every 10 seconds. at my gear level though, i would say my burst is very consistent. i'm almost always number one damage in every wz and always hitting 4k-5ks every time i get on someone.

 

Ofc when I face full pugs I don't have major problems either.BUT that has to do with my experience playing 1 year full pvp,my half EWH gear and the balanced stats after a lot of study.I can easily hit 400-500k dmg on such occasions and even hit low geared ppl with 4,5k DF or force lightning(ticks added ofc).

The major problem comes when you have to face organized,well geared,experienced pvpers.

Last night was matched 5 times in a row with a half premade group.Full of shadows,vanguards,a couple of sage healers and a couple of sentinels.

All I could see was immune,immune,3 digit numbers,1.5k dmg on crits,couldn't kill healers and when it came to sentinels they hit for 6 and 7k on me.To avoid missunderstandings...I have 1211 expert,951 bonus dmg,34,89% crit buffed and 76,80% multi,which means that I am not low geared.

So...the big problems come when we have to face such groups because we don't have the burst dmg to press healers,most of our attacks are being reduced,we don't have a cd that protects us a bit more when the oponent is immune to stuns or dmg (plz don't refer to polarity shift...cause it's a joke compaired to snipers' immunities to inters) and when we are dragged close to smashers or pyros...you know the outcome.

If you are so lucky to enter all the time full pugged groups or abandon WZs that have premades then it's another story.In that case...yes my sorc is 90% top dps(hitting even 710k in a full duration death star),with 12+ medals(reaching up to 19) and a lot of objective points.

Edited by Darkallex
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Ofc when I face full pugs I don't have major problems either.BUT that has to do with my experience playing 1 year full pvp,my half EWH gear and the balanced stats after a lot of study.I can easily hit 400-500k dmg on such occasions and even hit low geared ppl with 4,5k DF or force lightning(ticks added ofc).

The major problem comes when you have to face organized,well geared,experienced pvpers.

Last night was matched 5 times in a row with a half premade group.Full of shadows,vanguards,a couple of sage healers and a couple of sentinels.

All I could see was immune,immune,3 digit numbers,1.5k dmg on crits,couldn't kill healers and when it came to sentinels they hit for 6 and 7k on me.To avoid missunderstandings...I have 1211 expert,951 bonus dmg,34,89% crit buffed and 76,80% multi,which means that I am not low geared.

So...the big problems come when we have to face such groups because we don't have the burst dmg to press healers,most of our attacks are being reduced,we don't have a cd that protects us a bit more when the oponent is immune to stuns or dmg (plz don't refer to polarity shift...cause it's a joke compaired to snipers' immunities to inters) and when we are dragged close to smashers or pyros...you know the outcome.

If you are so lucky to enter all the time full pugged groups or abandon WZs that have premades then it's another story.In that case...yes my sorc is 90% top dps(hitting even 710k in a full duration death star),with 12+ medals(reaching up to 19) and a lot of objective points.

 

i get what you mean. I had a few matches myself tonight where I was the only heavy dps and everyone else was 100k or lower. We played another equally good premade who had better than average pugs. At certain times, bursting down the entire team was out of the question. As I said in a previous post, I base most of my opinions off of rated or premade play where everyone is relatively equal in gear and skill. I think sorcs have a few issues...namely they should get dispel protection, some kind of move while casting cooldown, and some form of defensive cooldown, whether it's an ice-block type ability or increased armor.

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DF and TB can crit above 5k specifically because they are internal- they avoid mitigation. Which is where the problem is with pretty much everything else- we have no armour penetration as a class with the worst armour ourselves.

 

In other games- magic isn't mitigated period. This game though, we're pretty much dead last when it comes to penetration- at most we end up with one hard hitting ability (DF or TB) that penetrates.

 

On top of that- any burst combo you can get off as a sorc is going to be easier to get off as anything else- because PT, sins, mara, juggs are all using instants, have great gap closers, and sometimes even things like CC immunity. When they do get it off- you have no mitigation. When you get it off- they have better armour, plus they might have defensives, or things like aoe damage reduction. Snipers have casts- but leap/pull/interrupt immunity, and a good CC immunity CD all make their casting much easier to get off when rightly positioned.

 

Of course you can get off good dps and even good burst combos- but that's not my point. My point is- pvp is all about relative, and I guarantee if you can do well as a sorc, you can do much better as a sniper, PT, mara, jugg or sin doing DPS, and without the stun bubble as an operative doing healing.

 

As a result- given a choice between equal skill/gear, nobody takes a sorc for DPS in RWZ because it's gimping your team.

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DF and TB can crit above 5k specifically because they are internal- they avoid mitigation. Which is where the problem is with pretty much everything else- we have no armour penetration as a class with the worst armour ourselves.

 

In other games- magic isn't mitigated period. This game though, we're pretty much dead last when it comes to penetration- at most we end up with one hard hitting ability (DF or TB) that penetrates.

 

On top of that- any burst combo you can get off as a sorc is going to be easier to get off as anything else- because PT, sins, mara, juggs are all using instants, have great gap closers, and sometimes even things like CC immunity. When they do get it off- you have no mitigation. When you get it off- they have better armour, plus they might have defensives, or things like aoe damage reduction. Snipers have casts- but leap/pull/interrupt immunity, and a good CC immunity CD all make their casting much easier to get off when rightly positioned.

 

Of course you can get off good dps and even good burst combos- but that's not my point. My point is- pvp is all about relative, and I guarantee if you can do well as a sorc, you can do much better as a sniper, PT, mara, jugg or sin doing DPS, and without the stun bubble as an operative doing healing.

 

As a result- given a choice between equal skill/gear, nobody takes a sorc for DPS in RWZ because it's gimping your team.

 

agreed. i could make a sniper or pt and perform much better. however, as i also mentioned previously...there are only a handful of top level dps per class per server. Even if I wanted to recruit 3 pyro pts who do 700-800k per rated match, they aren't available, at least on pot5. The few who can, are already in guilds and dedicated teams. Same thing for snipers. Out of all the amazing dps available, I *might* be able to find 1 pt and 1 sniper. I like my sorc a lot and I do well enough where I don't feel the need to reroll. Plus with all the whining, I'm sure Bioware will cave and buff us somehow.

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DF and TB can crit above 5k specifically because they are internal- they avoid mitigation. Which is where the problem is with pretty much everything else- we have no armour penetration as a class with the worst armour ourselves.

 

In other games- magic isn't mitigated period. This game though, we're pretty much dead last when it comes to penetration- at most we end up with one hard hitting ability (DF or TB) that penetrates.

 

On top of that- any burst combo you can get off as a sorc is going to be easier to get off as anything else- because PT, sins, mara, juggs are all using instants, have great gap closers, and sometimes even things like CC immunity. When they do get it off- you have no mitigation. When you get it off- they have better armour, plus they might have defensives, or things like aoe damage reduction. Snipers have casts- but leap/pull/interrupt immunity, and a good CC immunity CD all make their casting much easier to get off when rightly positioned.

 

Of course you can get off good dps and even good burst combos- but that's not my point. My point is- pvp is all about relative, and I guarantee if you can do well as a sorc, you can do much better as a sniper, PT, mara, jugg or sin doing DPS, and without the stun bubble as an operative doing healing.

 

As a result- given a choice between equal skill/gear, nobody takes a sorc for DPS in RWZ because it's gimping your team.

 

 

All good points the class is gimped compared to other main dps classes. If you play dps sorcerer you do it out of love not for competitive play. Yes if you are good you can help your team and get high scores on the charts but most know that the main dps classes are just so much better that you really are a second class citizen. You never see an A rated guild recruiting for sorcerer dps maybe they will take a healer.

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All good points the class is gimped compared to other main dps classes. If you play dps sorcerer you do it out of love not for competitive play. Yes if you are good you can help your team and get high scores on the charts but most know that the main dps classes are just so much better that you really are a second class citizen. You never see an A rated guild recruiting for sorcerer dps maybe they will take a healer.

 

Yeah- and for the most part I'm not asking for too much in terms of damage buffs, mostly for mobility, survivability and baseline buffs that should have been part of the class to begin with. Frankly- making CD internal, making wrath refresh it so we don't rely on the sad damage of LS when wrath procs while CD's on cooldown- adding some armour penetration (we do well in parses because other classes are debuffing boss armour- we don't have that reliably in pvp).

 

Furthermore- they've said they intend to nerf the stun bubble, which right now is our thing getting us into rateds and making us survive in normals- they'll have to give us something in return to both make us have something desirable for rated, and to make up for everything else we lack.

 

I know we can put out decent burst sometimes- it's still not as good as other classes- but that in itself doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that we're at least a little bit behind on everything else- or far behind in the case of survivability.

 

CC and an escape is not our survivability when it's considered that we are pretty much on par if not behind on CC without the stun bubble, and our one escape is so easy to counter.

 

Kiting is not our specialty when we have no baseline root and no perma snare in a game where almost everyone else has both of those.

 

 

I'm not talking about whether you can or can't do decently at the class- I'm talking about piece by piece comparisons, in which we come up short. At the moment I have someone of every class in low level pvp too- and I have topped dps/healing charts as low as level 11 on every single class- and at the highest by level 18 I'm doing so, so yes, I know you can do well as every class- even dps ops, dps mercs and dps sorcs.

 

But- pvp is relative, and relatively those weak 3 are not as good as the top 5- regardless of ability to put out burst- because of other things getting in the way.

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Honestly its annoying enough in regular warzones getting tunnel focused by every marauder, assassin, powertech and Juggernaut entire games. It gets old after one game, after 4 or 5 in a row of being tunnel focused by players it makes you want to quit.

 

Honestly I find it harder and harder to even bother playing my sorc in solo ques

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A 10-15% damage increase across the board wouldn't hurt either. Can play 4 sorc specs blind...have maybe a week's experience (pve) DPSing on a Vanguard (respecced from tank) and I'm matching my sorc single target dps in worse gear. I assume, once I'm in better gear, there will be a huge gap.
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A 10-15% damage increase across the board wouldn't hurt either. Can play 4 sorc specs blind...have maybe a week's experience (pve) DPSing on a Vanguard (respecced from tank) and I'm matching my sorc single target dps in worse gear. I assume, once I'm in better gear, there will be a huge gap.

 

The sims and parses are pretty clear that Sorc DPS specs are between 5 and 10 percent behind some others (Vanguard included) in PvE. I'd be happy with a 5 percent buff. I think that is realistic. I also think it would help in PvP, although I would also like to see something for added survivability in PvP. Another escape or something along those lines would help.

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Buffing our damage is a minor concern at the moment, at least for lightning. I broke 6k last night twice on cl with a 6046 and 6181. I hit the majority of people with tb and cl between 4-5k. Adding 10% to those numbers is nice for sure, but it won't make that huge of an impact.

 

These are changes we need for each spec:

 

Corruption

- some type of binding heal that heals the caster and a target for a moderate amount

- a pain suppression (damage reduction) ability on a 2-3 min cd which can be used on any target and while the caster is stunned

- another instant cast type heal (I really loved prayer of mending on my priest, not a huge heal but a nice little something)

 

Lightning

- thundering blast needs a knockdown or knockback associated with it

-some kind of blink or teleport ability on a moderate cooldown (30 secs or so)

 

Madness

- dispel protection, either in the form of a new talent or an unstable affliction type of ability

- dot ticks that restore force

- force lightning refreshing affliction ticks

 

Utility for all specs

- auras/armors such as the ones priests have in wow...additional armor/spellpower and increased movement speed/ lower instant cast costs

- an iceblock type ability to allow us to be node guards

- a purge type ability that removes all defensive cds on a target, on a 2-3 min cooldown

- give sorcs some baseline ability that increases the effectiveness of alacrity and possibly speeds up the tick of dots

 

I don't think any of these changes would make sorcs op, but they would make most teams want to include at least 1 in their makeup.

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The sims and parses are pretty clear that Sorc DPS specs are between 5 and 10 percent behind some others (Vanguard included) in PvE. I'd be happy with a 5 percent buff. I think that is realistic. I also think it would help in PvP, although I would also like to see something for added survivability in PvP. Another escape or something along those lines would help.

 

Also- those parses are on bosses that'll be fully debuffed for armour penetration- we actually do even less damage than that in pvp because we won't reliably have an armour debuff on our target... while other classes have armour pen on many attacks to begin with.

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A 10-15% damage increase across the board wouldn't hurt either. Can play 4 sorc specs blind...have maybe a week's experience (pve) DPSing on a Vanguard (respecced from tank) and I'm matching my sorc single target dps in worse gear. I assume, once I'm in better gear, there will be a huge gap.

 

Yep, my powertech is way better with less gear, the difference is a bad joke.

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Also- those parses are on bosses that'll be fully debuffed for armour penetration- we actually do even less damage than that in pvp because we won't reliably have an armour debuff on our target... while other classes have armour pen on many attacks to begin with.

 

Yeah a heavy armored target is a huge problem for us. It seems lightning would be elemental damage but its not lol

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But by the same token it wouldn't make sense for TK throw to be elemental. But either way, it is a problem yes.

 

I could care less, ultimately the role playing factor of what damage type our moves equate to is irrelevant. I hear people say all the time my force lightning shouldn't penetrate past armor, its sad that people still don't' realize force lightning is mitigated by armor. What matters is the fact that it takes a lifetime to kill heavy armored targets and is even worse if they are a tank.

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But by the same token it wouldn't make sense for TK throw to be elemental. But either way, it is a problem yes.

 

Doesn't make sense for Railshot to ignore 90% armor either.

 

And the thing won't be mitigated either by the base resistance to internal/elemental anyone with the Inq/sage buff has. It effecitively will hit like a truckload.

 

If you look at the various dps spec who are currently frowned at, you have concealment operative and sorc. What is the common point between the two? Kinetic/energy heavy, with no armor bypass.

 

Snipers/jug have access to an armor debuff, annihilation marauder's bleed are all internal, carnage have gore, PT are nearly all elemental, with as said a permanent 90% AP on its big hitter, merc's kinetic tree has a 35% armor pen on its cylinder.

 

Mostly tough, its fitting that a class that is designed as a glass cannon could bypass armor, since even tank dps can be threatening right now, and not even talking about those tank in dps gear or hybrids.

 

So making most of sorc's attack elemental imo makes sense. Now as far as mirror class goes, yah its somewhat confusing that PEBBLES would not be mitigated by armor, but heck, lets say they go in cracks in the armor and punch holes in the skins there, causing INTERNAL bleeding eh :p

 

But if other class have burst, sorc could easily take a position as the "unavoidable" damage dealer, burning Heavy armor class as if they were naked.

 

That said, I'm not exactly sure PvP TTK even allows that, but it WOULD make sense to have a RDPS that shines against some bosses in PvE by their ability to bypass armor.

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You, sir, are brilliant. I love all of these suggested changes; you have addressed all of the problems I have noticed in my painful days trying to scrape together some sort of dignity on the PVP field as a DPS Sorcerer.

 

One thing I would like to see is a better life-stealing mechanic for Madness. If Bioware could buff up the life-stealing on abilities like Death Field and things like Parasitism, that would give Madness Sorcerers a self-heal that could sustain us longer against the lol-smashers.

 

 

Disappointed at what I saw in the Bioware post on here. It's like they refuse to see that this class is broken and wish to nerf it even further into the ground. Yes, we understand class-balancing is a complicated task, but if you just acknowledge for us that something is terribly wrong with Sorcerers, we would rest easier and not be climbing your cage constantly.

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Its not exactly like we are amazing pve dps anyway

 

Gear and skill being equal, I don't think we are the top DPS class by any means for PvE, but we can put out plenty of damage, certainly enough to clear anything in the game. I've cleared everything except Nightmare EC, which I haven't tried yet, with both a Sorc and a Sage DPS.

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Well I just find it kind of sad that my elite warhero dps sorc is already being caught up to by my sniper in recruit with 4 pieces of WH/augments. I've only played a few games but I've already had 4.7k crits, the burst is easier to set up/get off and honestly......I think I'm actually less squishy than my sorcerer already.

 

I love my sorc and all, but every other class I play feels OP compared to it

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Doesn't make sense for Railshot to ignore 90% armor either.

 

And the thing won't be mitigated either by the base resistance to internal/elemental anyone with the Inq/sage buff has. It effecitively will hit like a truckload.

 

If you look at the various dps spec who are currently frowned at, you have concealment operative and sorc. What is the common point between the two? Kinetic/energy heavy, with no armor bypass.

 

Snipers/jug have access to an armor debuff, annihilation marauder's bleed are all internal, carnage have gore, PT are nearly all elemental, with as said a permanent 90% AP on its big hitter, merc's kinetic tree has a 35% armor pen on its cylinder.

 

Mostly tough, its fitting that a class that is designed as a glass cannon could bypass armor, since even tank dps can be threatening right now, and not even talking about those tank in dps gear or hybrids.

 

So making most of sorc's attack elemental imo makes sense. Now as far as mirror class goes, yah its somewhat confusing that PEBBLES would not be mitigated by armor, but heck, lets say they go in cracks in the armor and punch holes in the skins there, causing INTERNAL bleeding eh :p

 

But if other class have burst, sorc could easily take a position as the "unavoidable" damage dealer, burning Heavy armor class as if they were naked.

 

That said, I'm not exactly sure PvP TTK even allows that, but it WOULD make sense to have a RDPS that shines against some bosses in PvE by their ability to bypass armor.

 

Oh I quite agree, concealment ops get a 30% armour penetration with acid blade (scrapper's flechette round) iirc.

 

I'd also make sorc's crushing darkness internal, leaving sins as kinetic (like they get the passive 25% boost to shock and sorcs don't).

 

And yeah I'd love to see madness dots heal the user (removing the stupid parasitism talents) via a life leeching, and have them and shock do more damage when the target is under 30%.

 

Death field needs to hit 5, with a damage bump and force lightning for a madness sorc should be uninteruptable.

 

But at this point with 1.7 and the expansion I have no recourse but to take the overly pessimistic view of sorcs getting the buff they need, so to avoid disappointment I'm just melting face with a Pyro Powertech, not as much fun apart from watching people go boom in a burst of flames, but definitely more effective.

Edited by Chemic_al
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