Like many of you I've been toying with specs since 2.0. I used to run the standard hybrid tank spec pre 2.0 and loved it. been smarting over the loss of insta-WW and out of stealth spike being placed deep in darkness ever since. Played with all sorts of hybrids and ultimately settled on a pure tank spec for PvP.

Today I tried some minmaxing in Excel and came up with an odd and to my knowledge not as yet advertised spec I'm naming Venom Tank. Here is the link: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200rcrsddczMZsZcMfor.3

It's 27/4/15 running dark charge and shield. You can trade off some damage for survivability, but its pretty slight either way. I went full damage.

There is a bit of a change for playstyle from other specs. You have shock, force lightning, death field, assassinate, thrash, crushing darkness as key skills using harness darkness to max force lightning via shock. You have a lot more healing potential with force lightning, crushing darkness and death field. Idea is to hit shock w/e it's up and then thrash/assassinate/lacerate to get insta-shock to proc and hit shock again. Get 3 stacks of harness darkness and you hit force lightning. Of course get DF down w/e it's up. If you need more healing hit a few people with crushing darkness or for a minor pain suppression hit discharge.

For itemization it's expertise > crit > power = force power > willpower > surge. Alacrity isn't good enough to matter. Ignoring accuracy as it does not affect enough skills in this lineup but didn't go into it in detail and could be proven wrong.

Thoughts?

It may look good on paper, but it doesn't work well at all.

I used a spec like this once, you have quite a lot of aggro problems and your survival decreases as well.

It may look good on paper, but it doesn't work well at all.

 

I used a spec like this once, you have quite a lot of aggro problems and your survival decreases as well.

This is PVP-only, obviously, so aggro problems aren't on the table.

That said, it's a pretty lame spec, especially for anything other than PUG play with a bunch of headless chickens.

Electric Execution is pretty awful for Dark Charge, because it just doesn't hit that hard. That's 3 points essentially wasted.

Hard-casting Crushing Darkness costs GCDs that could be spent gaining HD stacks, plus it's interrupt bait, plus the damage is mediocre. Not worth it for a little extra healing. For a tank spec, too, it is silly to give up flat DR (via Sith Defiance) to pick up some meager DOT healing.

Darkness already has potent Force recovery, so the 1 point in Dark Embrace is essentially wasted.

Taking Dark Ward but not Dark Bulwark is kinda ***'y as well. If you're going to bother with a pure tank skill but not take the add-on talent that makes it significantly better, I really don't know what to tell you.

Frankly, I don't see anything whatsoever in that spec that is an upgrade over a normal hybrid tank build, and the only thing I'd even run a hybrid tank build for, honestly, is node guarding (to get the 30m reach of Death Field). Wither is a pretty awesome skill, and if you're going to be gearing up tank-style and actually playing like a tank, it's pretty much on-par with Death Field. DF is a better utility skill, but there's a big difference between a pure tank and a utility spec, and they are not interchangeable.

^ This is why I'm posting the spec for comment. Here are some minor adjustments to address your points. It essentially trades off the slight damage bump for more survivability. As you point out it might be worth while.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200rsroddcdMZczZfMcor.3

Been playing in this spec and thusfar I'm hitting similar numbers to full tank, with the exception of having total damage about 50% higher. It is a bit squishier (maybe 5-10% and guessing from the lack of wither's pain suppression) so the added survivability may be advised anyway.

standard Darkness/Madness hybrid build.

Link? For some reason I've never heard of a standard darkness/madness hybrid build in 2.0.

Link? For some reason I've never heard of a standard darkness/madness hybrid build in 2.0.

This more or less. There is room to shuffle some points around to suit your tastes. Main thing is to get reduced-cost Death Field and Harnessed Darkness. Lots of Thrash filler to proc Energize.

Frankly though, it's not as useful as full tank except as a node guard, and you're just as well off with Waka in that scenario, because it's not as sturdy but it's much deadlier.

I did a build similar when 2.0 came out. I loose quite a bit of force, and since I could no longer use the pve bonus (with pvp mods) from the force mystic gear, only have 100 force really hurt. Especially not having duplicity too.

While the darkness/madness spec does have some burst, I find that going full darkness gives more dps over time. With the hybrid spec, if you're guarding a node by yourself, it'll be quite difficult to kill more than 1 player, because of the force management.

I did a build similar when 2.0 came out. I loose quite a bit of force, and since I could no longer use the pve bonus (with pvp mods) from the force mystic gear, only have 100 force really hurt. Especially not having duplicity too.

 

While the darkness/madness spec does have some burst, I find that going full darkness gives more dps over time. With the hybrid spec, if you're guarding a node by yourself, it'll be quite difficult to kill more than 1 player, because of the force management.

You don't solo node-guard as tank hybrid to *kill* anyone. You make yourself so obnoxiously slow to kill that your team can reinforce no questions asked. Full-tree is even better than hybrid at the not-dying part (faster HD stacks), but it doesn't have Death Field, which is just a filthy utility skill.

This more or less. There is room to shuffle some points around to suit your tastes. Main thing is to get reduced-cost Death Field and Harnessed Darkness. Lots of Thrash filler to proc Energize.

 

Frankly though, it's not as useful as full tank except as a node guard, and you're just as well off with Waka in that scenario, because it's not as sturdy but it's much deadlier.

Yeah that's essentially the same spec. I'd shunt the two in Avoidance into Claws of Decay, otherwise same. Works4me.

Wakajin really is pretty squishy. Nothing like any spec running dark ward/shield. I'll keep playing with it but for now I'm going with the darkness/madness hybrid. Again easily 40-50% more dps than full tank and minimal, if any, observed changes for shielding people. More self healing via DF is nice too. Arguably less squishy than full tank with the changes aforementioned.

I did a build similar when 2.0 came out. I loose quite a bit of force, and since I could no longer use the pve bonus (with pvp mods) from the force mystic gear, only have 100 force really hurt. Especially not having duplicity too.

 

While the darkness/madness spec does have some burst, I find that going full darkness gives more dps over time. With the hybrid spec, if you're guarding a node by yourself, it'll be quite difficult to kill more than 1 player, because of the force management.

Force regen has not been a problem. Maybe a sabre strike 1/20th of the time for fights lasting more than a minute. About it.

Yeah that's essentially the same spec. I'd shunt the two in Avoidance into Claws of Decay, otherwise same. Works4me.

As a node guard, the shorter-CD interrupt and CC breaker are clutch. Again, the point is not maximizing DPS. It's maximizing TTK.

You don't solo node-guard as tank hybrid to *kill* anyone. You make yourself so obnoxiously slow to kill that your team can reinforce no questions asked. Full-tree is even better than hybrid at the not-dying part (faster HD stacks), but it doesn't have Death Field, which is just a filthy utility skill.

Idk, I've been stacking a lot of power, and doing a good number, on 1 vs 1s. Albeit I'll still call and do a bit of denial. I find that using the frontal maul is a great alternative to death field, with a cost of a lot less force.

I find that using the frontal maul is a great alternative to death field, with a cost of a lot less force.

DF >> frontal maul.

a) get in position and use maul the old fashioned way

b) DF hits more people and can hit people around corners

I am using this for PVP, with a shield gen with dps stats in, dark charge and dps gear. Energize works very nicely with the crit bonus from deception, still get all the maul damage and pretty decent survivability.

I use the tank set bonus for more damage and lower CD on spike

This is the build i am using

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200rMrozzZfRcRkGbRr0zZM.3

Like many of you I've been toying with specs since 2.0. I used to run the standard hybrid tank spec pre 2.0 and loved it. been smarting over the loss of insta-WW and out of stealth spike being placed deep in darkness ever since. Played with all sorts of hybrids and ultimately settled on a pure tank spec for PvP.

 

Today I tried some minmaxing in Excel and came up with an odd and to my knowledge not as yet advertised spec I'm naming Venom Tank. Here is the link: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200rcrsddczMZsZcMfor.3

 

It's 27/4/15 running dark charge and shield. You can trade off some damage for survivability, but its pretty slight either way. I went full damage.

 

There is a bit of a change for playstyle from other specs. You have shock, force lightning, death field, assassinate, thrash, crushing darkness as key skills using harness darkness to max force lightning via shock. You have a lot more healing potential with force lightning, crushing darkness and death field. Idea is to hit shock w/e it's up and then thrash/assassinate/lacerate to get insta-shock to proc and hit shock again. Get 3 stacks of harness darkness and you hit force lightning. Of course get DF down w/e it's up. If you need more healing hit a few people with crushing darkness or for a minor pain suppression hit discharge.

 

For itemization it's expertise > crit > power = force power > willpower > surge. Alacrity isn't good enough to matter. Ignoring accuracy as it does not affect enough skills in this lineup but didn't go into it in detail and could be proven wrong.

 

Thoughts?

gratz on taking a pre 2.0 build and making a 2.0 version of it and calling it your own...

the 5/31/5 build must be called the ZOMGMYBUILD because I took the pre 2.0 deception, added 5 points so its very different...or not, its just deception and your version of the 2nd version of 23/1/17 aka 27/1/13 is only a 2.0 version of a build that was already popular in patch 1.3

I got a Darkness Hybrid I have been pvp'n with and having a blast. Against people in similar gear as me I am destroying them. 12-31-3 Dark Maul http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200rMrozZfrcRzGbRr0zZc.3. This is a version of a spec I used pre 2.0 23-15-0 Also coined Dark Maul by me, so pls don't flame me cause I copied myself, lol.

Anyways the only healing your going to get is from Dark Charge and Overcharge Saber, but you have 10 times the burst and should be ripping through people. Electric Ambush works with Dark Charge so you want to go in and out of stealth as much as possible to get the reset on Recklessness. The main flaw of this spec is the energy management so again in and out of stealth and timely uses of Blackout to take advantage of Dark Embrace is a must.

There is awesome synergy with Energize and Crackling Blast. With the Recklessness buff you have 100% increase to Shock crit. With only a few pieces of Partisan gear and not a single 69 mod in my gear I am still Shocking for 7-8k, and about 5k-7k on my Mauls (on PTR I was hitting 9k Shocks and 8k Mauls). Open with Spike, Maul, Thrash 1-2X, Shock, by then Duplicity procs and stun to get behind them and Maul again and hopefully Shock is up again for another 5k damage. With in a few globals they are in execute range and its good night. All this front loaded burst and your doing it in Dark Charge with added defense from Blackout and Entropic field. Its very sexy.

When I get descent gear I'll make a show case video with big crits and people in worse gear than me getting their faces melted lol.

I got a Darkness Hybrid I have been pvp'n with and having a blast. Against people in similar gear as me I am destroying them. 12-31-3 Dark Maul http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200rMrozZfrcRzGbRr0zZc.3. This is a version of a spec I used pre 2.0 23-15-0 Also coined Dark Maul by me, so pls don't flame me cause I copied myself, lol.

 

Anyways the only healing your going to get is from Dark Charge and Overcharge Saber, but you have 10 times the burst and should be ripping through people. Electric Ambush works with Dark Charge so you want to go in and out of stealth as much as possible to get the reset on Recklessness. The main flaw of this spec is the energy management so again in and out of stealth and timely uses of Blackout to take advantage of Dark Embrace is a must.

 

There is awesome synergy with Energize and Crackling Blast. With the Recklessness buff you have 100% increase to Shock crit. With only a few pieces of Partisan gear and not a single 69 mod in my gear I am still Shocking for 7-8k, and about 5k-7k on my Mauls (on PTR I was hitting 9k Shocks and 8k Mauls). Open with Spike, Maul, Thrash 1-2X, Shock, by then Duplicity procs and stun to get behind them and Maul again and hopefully Shock is up again for another 5k damage. With in a few globals they are in execute range and its good night. All this front loaded burst and your doing it in Dark Charge with added defense from Blackout and Entropic field. Its very sexy.

 

When I get descent gear I'll make a show case video with big crits and people in worse gear than me getting their faces melted lol.

Something funny there. You have stuff specific to dark charge and surge/lightning charge. You can't have both. Some points are being wasted.

This more or less. There is room to shuffle some points around to suit your tastes. Main thing is to get reduced-cost Death Field and Harnessed Darkness. Lots of Thrash filler to proc Energize.

 

Frankly though, it's not as useful as full tank except as a node guard, and you're just as well off with Waka in that scenario, because it's not as sturdy but it's much deadlier.

If any experienced with rwz could comment I would appreciate it. I am leveling an alt and clearly the old kinetic hybrid is not working. So I am struggling to understand if full kinetic or a waka varaint would be better in this node guarding role. If kinetic please then help with gearing.

Thank you in advance.

Something funny there. You have stuff specific to dark charge and surge/lightning charge. You can't have both. Some points are being wasted.

Yes they are which is the thing I struggle with, with this spec. I have thought of using it but it just seems to get what you want from Deception you have to waste points when you run DC. Personally I have yet to settle on a spec running Dark Charge that I like as much as the pre2.0 hybrid with DF. Maybe I haven't had enough experience with each spec yet to come to conclusion on which fits my play style the best.

Something funny there. You have stuff specific to dark charge and surge/lightning charge. You can't have both. Some points are being wasted.

Yes you waste points to put into Surging Charge so you can get Induction, but Induction is worth three points so its not really a waste. You again waste points into Saber Conduit to get to Electric Ambush, but because Shock hits so hard with the Recklessness buff, it is totally worth 4 points for this talent. On top of that you are going to waste points anyways to get to the 6th and 7th tier. If Saber Conduit wasn't needed you would be putting points into Deceptive Power and Static Cling, and neither of those talents are going make or break you in battle, they are not missed.

So technically the points are wasted, but the talents we are chasing are so crucial for this spec that it does not matter.

Yes they are which is the thing I struggle with, with this spec. I have thought of using it but it just seems to get what you want from Deception you have to waste points when you run DC. Personally I have yet to settle on a spec running Dark Charge that I like as much as the pre2.0 hybrid with DF. Maybe I haven't had enough experience with each spec yet to come to conclusion on which fits my play style the best.

You should try it before you knock it. You basically playing the same style as Deception Assassin, except your not counting Induction stacks or Static Charges. You don't Discharge except for some aoe splash, but Energize will proc enough times to make up for not having discharge, and your shocks will hit harder than the Discharge or Shock from a Deception sin. You are also much harder to kill than Deception sins due to your armor and heals.

My opener is usually open with Low Slash from stealth (low resolve cost) I then Maul, and then Thrash, Energize has usually procd by the first two abilities, now I blackout and Duplicity usually procs by now, so I stun and Maul for a second time. One more Thrash and Energize will proc again for another hard hitting Shock. Towards the end of my second Dark Embrace Buff I know 10 seconds has gone by so I'll Force Cloak and the Spike for another free Duplicity buff (this also restarts my Dark Embrace buff). Activate my 3rd Maul and Thrash or Assassinate by this point. Energize usually procs for the third time by this point and if I need can hit Black Out again. If my Mauls are critting, I will come no where near to finishing this rotation series, but for skilled healers or tanks, I find this rotation puts out serious pressure.

With all that burst, its being done in Dark Charge and Dark Embrace buff for over 50% damage mitigation as well as heals form Dark Charge. Deception can burst just has hard, they have the same Maul potential and can set up back to back Discharges that can put a serious hurt on someone if they both crit. Deception has way better force management for much higher sustained dps. But Dark Maul requires no set up, just watching for procs, and is much harder to kill. Dark Maul can also gaurd healers, as well as break snares with a 15sec sprint.

Anyways, if you are not sold by now to at least try this spec then I do not know what else to say about it. It does have its ups and downs, but it is definitely worth trying for a few WZ's.

Was refering more specifically to stuff you take that you don't need to take toget something else. Aka Energize with dark charge and Saber Conduit / Electric Ambush with surging charge. You don't need to take those to get other stuff and you can't get the benefit from both at the same time. I am 100% sure there are some small changes that need to be made that are 'pareto optimal' to the spec.

Assuming surging charge I'd do this: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200rsMoZfrcRkGbRr0zZc.3

Assuming dark charge I'd do this: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200rsMozZfrcRkGMorzdZz.3