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PTS Phase 2 Loot Acquisition Feedback (Newest Patch)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Public Test Server
PTS Phase 2 Loot Acquisition Feedback (Newest Patch)
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Batwer's Avatar

09.06.2019 , 02:10 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Daasdfg View Post
[*]Does acquiring gear feel too fast? Too slow?
[*]Do you understand what to do to get gear?
Yes. Equip gear that has the highest level regardless of appropriateness to my class so that I can get gear of a higher rating that doesn't appy to my class.
[*]How do you feel about the primary sources of getting gear? (playing content and Missions)
Hammer Station dropped a ton of gear and I like a resistive hilt as much as any merc, oh wait, I'm a merc. How many barrage, immunity enhancements, resistive hilts and tank relics do I need? Oh, nice to see trash mobs dropping level 4 gear.
[*]How do you feel about the contribution of the supplementary systems? (vendors, crafting, Renown)
Tonight I started get some gold moldable gear. 3 pieces of 279 that were class specific to someone else's class so I couldn't even equip them to raise my gear level to get higher level gear. Still getting lots of 272 gear when all of my gear is 282 or better. Got a few pieces of higher level tank gear out of the crates as well.

Do ya really want to know how I feel about this?
You are a little mad?

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Mubrak's Avatar

09.06.2019 , 02:32 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Darev View Post
Tune the numbers all you want, the only way to make happy players is to give us SOMETHING that has zero reliance on RNG.

When you do, THAT's what we'll use.
RNG is fine as a supplementary system. When there is a chance of 306 dropping while you're in 270 gear, that's exciting RNG. When you have to RNG your way up to 304 in order to have a chance for 306 dropping, thats repulsive.

Give us base gear (i.e. 268 mods) right at the start. In a live stream you said you want to move away from event currencies and use reputation and credits instead. Do the same with gear and renown. Add vendors that sell us green mods of all tiers for credits but require renown to be traded with. Use loot drops as a supplementary system with a chance to drop gear far better than we could buy based on renown.

For the Wall of Crazy: Let us improve the mods we have. Add blue/purple/golden currencies that drop from missions depending on difficulty. Add a vendor that acts as armorer/workbench that "improves" our mods by, for example, selling a blue barrel for a green barrel and 10 blue tokens.
6.0: Do not add that gaudy flashing icon above every vendor's head without an option to turn it off.
Let us sort our companion list and hide or kick out the unwanted ones!

CherryFlight's Avatar

09.06.2019 , 02:34 AM | #23
So my internet decided to die in the middle of doing Onderon dailies to test that since I neglected to do it before, but running Hammer Station again yielded 7:3 relevant-to-non-relevant drops, so it looks like that bit of RNG balancing is fixed as promised! Thank you! Of those relevant drops about half were repeats, however. I understand thatís intended as deconstruction fodder, though. Iím not sure how well you can fine-tune what the game looks at without risking some deep-rooted bugs cropping up, but if itís possible to avoid rolling the same part of the same set, that would be great! (Not that Iím going to complain AS much if I can use the mods attached to those set pieces though...something I should have realized in the three second grace period while deconstructing the duplicate piece. Oops.)

Renown still feels too slow, even with boosts, and Kai still seems too expensive. So does the other vendor, actually, especially for another random roll. If she could just sell ďlesserĒ gear pieces as-is it would make those prices worth it. You did say you had solutions in the works to getting specific pieces of gear, though, maybe Iím harping on something you already know?

Kaiís random item for half the price of available fixed purchases is a model maybe his fellow vendor over there could learn from though! I donít mind RNG if thereís also a direct method (see: command crates with the safety net of tokens and unassembled pieces)

Hope this was helpful, somehow!

(PS: I love the descriptions for the tacticals. Itís clear you guys had a lot of fun with them! Wasnít sure where to put this but I wanted to say it.)

Folcwar's Avatar

09.06.2019 , 03:08 AM | #24
So,.... Honestly.... this has to be the single worst gearing system, any game has ever had. EVER.

Before 258 gear was released, you had a working system, we could get components from pvp, and NiM raids.
SM and HM dropped tokens, (or you could buy the tokens) and upgrade to what YOU want. Targeting your gear, While the command boxes were a additional way to get 248, 236 etc. tokens.

Right now, I have to sit through 66 tiers of green and blue gear, before I get anything usefull, not to mention it isn't spec based, tank relics dropping for heals, absorb mainhands, sniper rifles, cannons, light sabres - on merc. the RnG isn't exciting, it's beyond disgusting. Raid's don't drop good enough gear, sm dropped 270 for me (I had 281 ilvl), HM, we killed boss, but due to a bug ported out, only the stealthers could get their loot of 3rd boss, but for them it was 290-298 gear (while they had 306 equiped)

A little rng,.. is always fun, - like let's say the command boxes as a second way to gear, but right now, the RnG is waaay to bad, I have always loved swtor, but if this releases i'm out. Honestly,... You guys said you had learned,... and instead of continueing or improving a working system, you trow it all out of the window and make it RnG, ontop of RnG ontop of RnG.

DarthBryn's Avatar

09.06.2019 , 04:18 AM | #25
The system just isnt working still. I have tested both a 258 & 306 geared Char via Vet and MM FP.

The 258 geared char on first runs through HS all looked good got some up grades to 270, my rating got to 267 and then RNG kicks in and rather than get the pieces i need to lift my rating further I get more me too or downgrades on the pieces i already have. i did 10 more HS Vets Solo then stopped this gearing method as it was frustrating and moved to the vendor to try my luck with my 900 odd Tech Fragemtns. I got 1 270 belt a 270 tank relic (Im an Operative) & a 270 Implant. So 2 out of 3 upgrades and my rating finished on 270. So bar the tank relic I was lucky and got upgrades on my pieces, the tank relic was however very frustrating waste of tech components.
The other side of this is that some of the 258 gear i started with are still upgrades on the the 270 i am currentyly wearing but i cant use them as this would reduce my Item rating. So the gear I worked for in 5.0 is better than the gear I am currently wearing but cant use as it reduces my Item rating. (More on this with my other char). Im also using a Tank relic but im sure no one will call me out for it.
Frustration level 8/10

The 306 iRating gear char has all 306 rated gear, non of which are modable. I have been lucky enough to get 3 set piece items i would like to use. I can't the Mods in them are below 306 so if i equip them my Item rating drops and thus any futher Item drops i get are less likely to be Upgrades. All the drops i have been getting from Vet and MM flashpionts have been sub 306 modable or un modable 306 gear.
Just make anything thats 300+ rating have mods as a first step, at least i could use my set pieces at a point where I am still not just looking for upgraded gear. It would also allow me to choose the stats im playing with and let me play the way I want to.
Frustration level 9/10

Additionally, dont give me down grades at all, its just annoying and dissappointing. Rather than a downgrade give me some tech parts, it would be a more positive outcome.

Darev's Avatar

09.06.2019 , 04:34 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Mubrak View Post
RNG is fine as a supplementary system. When there is a chance of 306 dropping while you're in 270 gear, that's exciting RNG. When you have to RNG your way up to 304 in order to have a chance for 306 dropping, thats repulsive.

Give us base gear (i.e. 268 mods) right at the start. In a live stream you said you want to move away from event currencies and use reputation and credits instead. Do the same with gear and renown. Add vendors that sell us green mods of all tiers for credits but require renown to be traded with. Use loot drops as a supplementary system with a chance to drop gear far better than we could buy based on renown.

For the Wall of Crazy: Let us improve the mods we have. Add blue/purple/golden currencies that drop from missions depending on difficulty. Add a vendor that acts as armorer/workbench that "improves" our mods by, for example, selling a blue barrel for a green barrel and 10 blue tokens.
They're not pushing RNG as a supplementary system with 6.0
They're giving it to us as the ONLY system.
If you choose to fight in the sewer you can no longer claim to have the moral high ground.

Prog's Avatar

09.06.2019 , 05:51 AM | #27
So I've talked to people in my raid group, to some other people, totals about 60 players. And most of them know this game since 1.x patches. Pretty much all of the people independently came to telling me that there isn't a better system than it was in vanilla. It was balanced, rewarding, fun and it actually restricted people from getting a new toon geared very quickly without much effort (which current system doesn't do - all gear is Legacy and transferring 306 gear to a new toon so he gets high ilvl loot for his spec - this is the most obvious abuse of a badly designed loot system)

Let me remind you the vanilla loot system: there were tokens that drop from raids and that reward BiS gear with set-bonus. And there were commendations that supply high rating gear which is not fully optimized and does not have a set bonus. PvP gear was also separate from PvE and that actually maintained some quality in PvP (which is hard to find nowadays). I even remember times when you got full Recruit PvP gear from doing an introduction warzones quest so you get base expertise, but low stats and no set bonus.

So with the old system the players who were not really skilled in PvP couldn't enter the warzone in full PvE gear and nuke everything - they had no expertise. They had to grind for PvP gear and while they grind...they learn something
In the old system who were not really skilled in PvE couldn't enter a raid and oneshot everything with their PvP gear. Same with the grind part - getting gear was parallel to getting skill. Learning something new passively while you play - isn't that awesome?
It was an amazing split.

What the old system lacked was being friendly to more casual players who do not enjoy doing hardcore raids to get top gear (I still struggle to understand why would they need to have top gear - tolerance can sometimes be pointless like in this case, but okay). The biggest issue that more casual players had was: I do not have the set bonus and my class isn't as fun without it. To get the set bonus i need to do raid which I do not want to do. And top tier armorings that provide set bonus were tied to top tier PvE. So even if a person got lets say Tionese set bonus (which was low ilvl) and put high ilvl non-bis mod and enhancement from commendations, the person would still have low ilvl on the set bonus armoring - commendations as a supplementary system didnt provide that. And getting a Rakata token was impossible for a casual player on tier.

But that is fixed now. The set bonuses are tied to the shell, not to the armorings. That is by far the best change to the gearing system that I can see in this patch. Also tacticals. They are neat, I like them. Except the part that as a stealth class I can exit the combat and equip a different tactical and it can give a huge advantage that other classes do not possess. I suggest that changing a tactical in the field required more than just swapping a gear slot.

A suggestion regarding gear system:
  • Leave Kai Zakken as he is. He is a fun chap. Maybe form boxes out of set bonuses and reduce number of items he has available weekly. Each box has its own chance to be on his weekly list. The boxes are like in cartel market. Upper Body Right Price set bonus provides chest gloves, what else is upper? You know better. Maybe call it differently so that Tech Fragments correspond to the contents of the box. Right now his sell list is huge and its inconvenient to scroll. Reducing number of items he sells weekly will hurt people who want to buy from him. Grouping his inventory in boxes - thats gonna work, trust me, I am a data science engineer
  • Remove Takkanna (or rework, read next)
  • Add vendors that sell role-specific no-rng no-set bonus items for commendations (tech fragments). So lets say when I spend Tech Fragments I know for sure its an upgrade and it will have the stats I want. If I a buy greaves and I am a dps, I want to choose between Alacrity, Critical and Accuracy. I dont want to spend commendations (tech fragments) and get the thing I don't need. It is lame. Lets say you fix the rng and it gives upgrades more often. But you cannot fix the Alacrity/Critical/Accuracy choice with the RNG system on. The RNG should be limited, not overwhelming like now.
  • Add token drops to the raid bosses (or even final flashpoint bosses) that allow buying set bonus gear and tactical items.
  • Add vendors that allow exchanging tokens to gear.
  • Make bosses/flashpoints/crates drop gear only according to your current discipline. It is big lame when I get tank gear on a Scoundrel or Commando. Even if I am Assassin, what if I prefer DPSing? Give me dps loot, thats why my current discipline is Hatred or Deception, why does the game think I care about tanking if my class has this option? Respect my choices, aren't they supposed to matter? Choices matter, innit?
So back to the good part where I don't rage. Buying gear for commendations should be rewarding. its like paying in supermarket, you see whats in your basket, you dont have anything random there. Getting drops from crates or pve/pvp content - why not rng, why not.
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schinkar's Avatar

09.06.2019 , 06:12 AM | #28
Well, the state of gearing for the PTS (with unlimited resources of the Fragments) is already frustrating. But on live we won't have that. I don't see how this RNG is going to work after the release. Please, we don't want RNG, we don't need 19 tiers of gear! Gosh, after seeing this system on PTS I've started to love the Ossus and Command Crates system! I think what everyone would like is the old 3.0-4.0 system but with the addition of some crates with gear that we have right now (by the old system I also mean the Priority Operations when certain hm would give you nim gear). The biggest plus of it is that RNG, though being a part of the system, is nowhere near the main source of gear. For PvP, it could either be an old system with the gear with the Expertise stat or the system with the currency that everyone would get but PvP would give you more and then you can exchange it for tokens (hello from UC that are on live atm). But again, this minimizes the RNG factor to a not vital, so everyone is happy
God save the Covered Escape!

Maricstefan's Avatar

09.06.2019 , 06:32 AM | #29
Oh well then. this gonna be a long one.

So ive just played for like 4 ish hours, and think i got a decent picture of what works and what doesn't work. obviously some of this is going to be subjective so bear with me on that one.

First Impressions:

he new loot system doesn't work. its fundamentally not working.
So, what did we learn from Borderlands, Diablo, and co ? well 3 things which are needed for a " more loot, more rewarding loot, even more, loot " system as you guys are trying to put into place here

1. you need a lot of gear, because due to the fact that you want to keep the loot relevant, and rewarding you gotta trick the player into thinking that it is actually more and rewarding.

2. because we have a lot more loot dropping, the fact that the loot isn't better, or not relevant for the class right now, will be pushed aside due to the sheer variety of loot dropping.
//eg, you run the same raid boss 20 times, and you may won't find any better loot, but you won't get doubs and thus the player will be tricked into thinking that it was worth it running it because new and different loot keeps dropping.//

3. the loot has to reflect the activity the player just has completed. dropping green for basic activities is nice, but dropping green all the time, especially considering its always doubs and no new or different gear, fundamentally breaks the point of the new loot system.

The issues

i ran around 10 Vm hammer stations and like 6 or so MM hammer stations and two KPs.

A. " better " loot stopped dropping after the second VM. after that i only kept getting doubs and no new or different gear.
A.1 the indicator for which loot is better is broken.
//it seems to be only highlighting one stat /overall rating of an item without considering which class/spec youre playing. for me as a lighting sorc, it kept saying " crit is better " even though i already was at 1.5k crit with alac being only at 1.3k and accu being at 503 with stim. if you only equip the " better " gear youll have like no accu at the end anymore. just saying.

B. both the MM and KP didnt give relevant gear.
green gear/doubs kept dropping, making me lose interest in running the activities because the useless gear is useless

C. the stats of the 268 gear is hilariously bad. my fully augmented 247gear Sorc has the same if not better specs, so that needs to be reworked asap

Ideas to fix the loot system

As said before,
you just gotta throw way more items at the loot table, one way i could think of doing that is simply taking all the vanilla gear, reworking it, adding the onslaught stats, and throw those in again. you right away get 1000+ more items that way keeping the loot fresh for most of the first runs and keep the player running trying to find all the best loot instead of giving them the same loot over and over again. ( and essentially you can just keep reintroducing old gear into the mix but just redoing the textures and adding some stuff to them or removing backpacks and jetpacks and such. )

- At gearbox, for example, its like this " you may drop 20 blues 10 times, but because its always different blues the player will be coming back for a while to find the best out of the blues. and then you throw a couple of purples into the mix and you have a good boss to farm "
Especially for you guys this is relevant because right now you dont get relevant loot after the second run anymore, you at least wanna keep new and different loot dropping for a while, so even though i dont get better stuff, i get interesting loot i can min/max with a bit.

Fixing the Rewards

-The raid bosses NEED to drop better and relevant gear. which means AT LEAST Blue and up. NO GREEN!
same with MM Flashpoints. NO DAMN GREEN!

// for the VM flashpoints at least make the bosses each drop a blue with a chance of 40% and a purple with the chance of 20%. so that repeated playing makes sense. think thats easy to patch in for phase 3 //

- You wanna reflect the difficulty and the time spend in the activity and reward the player with loot that isn't totally useless. The reward/Happy/lets go again loop isnt created by just throwing loot at the player, but by AGAIN tricking the player into thinking that the loot is fresh and interesting.


the renown system.

leveled up 4 times and was impressed with how useless it was.
With the command crates, i at least got between 4 and 6 items now its only just 0 to 2 lol. and again none of which is useful.

( useful = i can min/max some stats around or its better.
useless = not my class, lower stats/rating, not for my spec )

personally, i liked how the command system worked because you had a loot table tied to each rank, now with that gone it will be less streamlined i feel, and it will cause more useless loot to drop than before.


short: the ne loot system doesnt work on a base level. throwing a ton of the same gear and even more mats at you so it feels more " rewarding " is not how that loop works. Getting a ton of doubs and no better gear, right now LITERALLY turns this game into vanilla destiny 2. and quite frankly, thats ****. in destiny 2 you played 40 hours and you had like 20 exotics, of which half were doubs. There was no reason to keep playing because there was no point for grinding for better gear and no point in min-maxing because of no variety in the gear.


Update on Vendors :

I didn't check the rate at which i was gaining tech parts, but after the stuff i ran, i had around 4k i think.

i think the base rate is alright it seems ( from just doing normal FPs and disassembling stuff ), though i would definitely adjust it for Raids and and higher difficulty in general.
I cant give any obective numbers but based on what the vendors prices for gear are i would could give some rates

//each VM flashpoint boss should drop around 100ish ( 300 per hammer station Run. 1200 after 4 runs a 12 min. )
each MM Flashpoint boss should drop around 150ish
each SM Raid Boss should give around 150ish
each HM raid boss should give around 200ish
solo Raid bosses just give a hard 500 //
- that way you still gotta grind for it but you get rewarded for playing the higher difficulties. keeps endgame relevant instead of what you going for right now

for the prices at the spoils of war vendor. id adjust the price range to 350 for the cheapest one ( belt earpiece ) to 700 for the most expensive one ( chest plate relic sth like that )
-Why ? this way you gotta at least play hammer station once, and encourage the dismantling of gear to get the cheapest one but a couple more times to grab the most expensive one.

// 1 hammer station = cheapest piece of random sov gear
3 hammer station = most expensive piece of sov gear
1 raid = most expensive piece of sov gear plus extra //

ALSO IMPORTANT: i would definitely do it like this, because you dont have enough gear right now in the loot pool anyway. So you simply cant throw even more useless gear at people too fast this way you gotta work for the maybe not useless gear lol


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Syroe's Avatar

09.06.2019 , 08:15 AM | #30
I tested the new updated system last night for a bit. Here are the numbers, conclusions at the end:
TL;DR: While improved(both quantity and quality-wise) drops are ok. They are nowhere near enough to create an enjoyable experience. Cut down on the RNG. Give a clear path to getting gear which allows players a degree of agency.

Taakaana vendor, got batches of 3k tech fragments, bought 12 items, kept the upgrades deconstructed everything else:
1. iRating 289: 6 sidegrades, 4 upgrades, 2 downgrades. 1 item was for a different role. Deconstructing 12 288(ish) items gave me 57 tech fragments.
2. iRating 290: 4 sidegrades, 0 upgrades, 8 downgrades. all items were role-appropriate. Deconstructing 12 288(ish items gave me 54 tech fragments.
3. iRating 290: 0 sidegrades, 1 upgrade, 11 downgrades. all items were role appropriate. Deconstructing 12 288(ish) items gave me 54 tech fragments.
4. iRating 290: 0 sidegrades, 3 upgrades*, 9 downgrades. *of the 3 upgrades 2 were for a different role. Deconstructing 12 290(ish) items gave me 54 tech fragmens.
5. iRating 290: 0 sidegrades, 3 upgrades*, 9 downgrades. 1 of the upgrades was for a different role. Deocnstructing 12 290(ish) items gave me 60 tech fragments.
6. iRating 291: 3 sidegrades, 0 upgrades, 9 downgrades. 2 of the items were for a different role. Deconstructing 12 290-ish items gave me 65 tech fragments.

At this point I got a pop for Hammer Station MM. Flashpoint took roughly 30 minutes to complete(going back to a 1.5 gcd, no autocrits etc. is definitely not an experience I look forward to on live), summary of the drops is:
32 items in total: 20 upgrades, 4 sidegrades, 0 downgrades, 3 role-appropriate enhancements and 1 mod. Unfortunately, in terms of what I could equip the number of upgrades goes down to 6(since a lot of them were duplicates).
Final boss dropped a general set-bonus piece.
Deconstructing everything(after equipping the upgrades, obviously) gave me 151 tech fragments.
Completing the weekly added another 100 tech fragments.
And the bosses(probably another source I didn't notice too) also gave me 90 tech fragments.

Second Hammer Station MM. Flashpoint took about 20 minutes(2 people in optimized 306 were in the group), with an added 5-10 minutes dealing with the "Unable to return to medcenter during boss fight" bug. Drops were:
27 items in total: 11 upgrades, 8 sidegrades, 8 downgrades, 1 of the items was for a different role. Pretty big chunk of duplicates.
Final boss dropped a merc healer tactical(which was appropriate, since we had a merc healer in group).
Deconstructing everything I didn't equip netted 151 tech fragments.

That's all I had time for. Conclusion(s):
The good(ish):
The more generous drops in MM HS did feel better, I don't know if I was just lucky or if some protections were put in place but the items dropping were within a tier of my item level, which alleviated some of the frustrations from the first phase. As a supplemental method of gearing it's ok. Will have to test drops while chasing BiS items, but I have a feeling the situation is a lot grimmer then.
Just to make it clear: Running a flashpoint and hoping you get one of the six items you need out of a pool of 360 is not a good main venue of obtaining gear.

The (terri)bad:
In the current format, the vendor is pointless outside of throwing some bantha poo-doo at the wall when Kai is gone so you don't completely waste tech fragments once you're close to the cap. Sidegrades are still more likely than upgrades and downgrades can still go down up to 5 tiers(that's the lowest I've gotten, could be worse).
Generally, the acquisition rate for tech fragments doesn't feel great. It would probably feel even worse if the vendor had any sort of decent chance at giving out stuff you're looking for.
I feel like you guys should make a decision in one direction or another when it comes to moddable gear outside of the endgame sets. Either get rid of 90% of the non-moddable stuff and flood the market with mods and enhancements so people can micro-manage(or not) to their hearts' content OR get rid of the moddable stuff up to iLevel 302, at which point you no longer get non-moddable stuff but instead...*drum-roll* shells with set bonuses and mods. It's not an ideal solution but it will mitigate some of the problems raised by a loot pool that is both deep and almost entirely useless at the same time.

The Ug(h)ly:
Is renown working as intended? Because the gain of ranks seems slower than a drunk Hutt going uphill and the rewards are...underwhelming.