TL:DR: The value of hybrids in groups is very high in this game. As it's a MMO game, value to a group matters. This puts *PURE* DPS at a disadvantage. What should be done?

 

 

The first character I rolled was an agent, at 10 I went sniper thinking it sounded pretty cool. I then rolled a few more characters and played them a bit more. After running a bunch of flashpoints and heroics I came to realize off-heals and to a lesser extent off-tanks, even if specced DPS, offer the same DPS but a lot more value to groups. The difference between success and falure on a tough fight (especailly with a lot of boss mechanics using "random" targeting) can often hinge on a spot heal or two from a DPS or a little tankability.

 

Now that I'm thinking of going back and playing my sniper some more I realize that gropuing (and even solo play to some-extent) will be much harder and I will have less to offer my group. I'm thinking I should have gone the other AC but there's no going back now.

 

So, what should be done? Should pure DPS ACs (advanced classes that have no tanking or healing talent tree) get some advantage (I guess snipers have the longest range in the game but 5m doesn't seem like much of an advantage by giving up the ability to heal some).

 

Any thoughts?

Sniper is pure amazing PvP. Really, if you like PvP, sniper is obliterate a single person, as long as they're not being healed.

Because they're awesome in PVP?

Because they're awesome in PVP?

 

Ah, I see. I wish the description would have said that, I'd have gone the other wey, Generally speaking I'm not interested in PvP in MMORPGs, I save that for FPS

Highest single target DPS in the game.

 

Pretty good utility.

 

Early on the differences aren't as apparent and hybrids appear more useful.

 

But really, just play what you enjoy playing.

Ah, I see. I wish the description would have said that, I'd have gone the other wey, Generally speaking I'm not interested in PvP in MMORPGs, I save that for FPS

 

As a sniper you have some nice tools to kite, good CC and some nice unique buffs. Plus there arent many Imperial Agents.

Two words: Big numbers

Without damage meters, I cannot accurately comment on the damage differences. Do I feel like I do more damage then the potential Hybrids? Yeah.

 

When it comes to other mechanics, a Sniper does have Defensive Matrix, Cover, and a ranged Interrupt. The Sith Sorcerer also has a ranged Interrupt though. Honestly I'm not familiar enough with what every class brings to comment on the issue. Do my friends think I'm worth it? Heck yeah. Would they want me as another class? Nope. Does that actually mean anything? Probably not.

Wait you said you have a level 10 sniper and your making a judgment off that? Yes please do us a favor and dont play one. This OP has to be the most ignorant OP I have read yet. To try to critique a class by playing it to level 10 is just dumb. Is it cool to have utility well yes try getting to level 40+ and watch a snipe CC mobs for you, cause we can. How about we make it possible to drop mobs so fast CCing isnt needed (let the tank tank). Again coming on here with the mind set that you played a couple classes to 10 or so gives you an educated mind on how to play, means you went to public school while it was closed. Please play a class other than a sniper and leave the skilled classes to those who have skill.

But really, just play what you enjoy playing.

 

I enjoy a number of characters, All that being equal, it's hard to play the sniper when grouping is harder and you offer less to a group

 

Honestly, I find that I do very little of anything until we hit boss mobs. The tanks leap forward, other jedi rush or start ranged casting and I.....well I go sit down. By the time I'm in position the fight is over.

 

But I'll give him another go although reading more in the sniper Forum makes me even more disenchanted. Seems normal PvE in the higher levels becomes nearly impossible to do without a sacraficial death or two.

Loudent, Don't let others keep you from playing if you like the class. Most people who Fail at sniper play the class all wrong anyways. I'm 41 and I solo all the time easily, even boss mobs with adds. There isn't a problem with the class its a problem with the players not understanding the class enough to be good at it. If your in a group that is moving fast through a dungeon dont bother sitting if you don't want to. at higher levels you get shots that allow you to stand and dps and then when its an "OH CRAP" pull watch a sniper tear thru mobs like butter and save a group. Most people like to run around with glow sticks and bang on crap. Snipers take time, and reading, researching to be good.

he's somewhat correct. a sniper should at least get some healing probe or probe with a dmg shield or something. even a full lightning sorc can shield a tank and dish out a few heals in a pinch. maybe instead of heals or defensive group skills they can add a group offensive skill like buffing probe or DOT probe.

This game is not a 2 weeks work The insane near "perfection" of balance almost brings tears to my eyes. Some ppl always QQ about classes being OP this and that. I cant tell you how many times ive seen ppl whine about Troopers and BH's being this and that. Yes they wear heavy armor, have heals, decent burst dmg. But for a class like the Sniper you have utilities to make him worthless if you play it correctly.

 

I know im swaying a little bit from the point here, but so you understand im stressing the topic of a pure dps in PvE/PvP and what you bring to the table. About when you hit Tattooine things start getting interesting, you need to use interrupts and cc to manage and ppl know that in general. Ive seen ppl asking specificly for Snipers since we can cut thru things so fast and have such a good arsenal to keep things in check.

 

So if you want a class that will keep challenging you through the entire game, Sniper is the way. If you are a lazy drone that rather just stand still and press one button then run to the next one you will get nowhere

So if you want a class that will keep challenging you through the entire game, Sniper is the way. If you are a lazy drone that rather just stand still and press one button then run to the next one you will get nowhere

 

This is why I play sniper. Solo PvE is a challenge and you get to put down those neon light clowns in warzones

easy

 

CC and kiting and you are with good use the best non speced off tank versus ballistic (abuse of ballistic damper and shield probe)

Wait you said you have a level 10 sniper and your making a judgment off that? Yes please do us a favor and dont play one. This OP has to be the most ignorant OP I have read yet. To try to critique a class by playing it to level 10 is just dumb. Is it cool to have utility well yes try getting to level 40+ and watch a snipe CC mobs for you, cause we can. How about we make it possible to drop mobs so fast CCing isnt needed (let the tank tank). Again coming on here with the mind set that you played a couple classes to 10 or so gives you an educated mind on how to play, means you went to public school while it was closed. Please play a class other than a sniper and leave the skilled classes to those who have skill.

 

Dude, he is asking the opinion of people who have played the class BEFORE he commits a ton of time into it. Sorry you had to take time to come off your throne and blast him for being "the most ignorant OP" Stay off the forums troll.

I havn't played alot of the other classes, so maybe ignorance is bliss in my case. But I can say by the time you hit your mid 30's you'll be prity tanky and have a ton of cc. I realy feel very versitile in groups. And as for finding things to hit, other classes will be having that problem with you around, dropping mobs befor ppl can get over to um.

 

I'm with the "play what you like" crowd. Not a big "raid" fan myself, and love the pvp stuff. But as far as doing all the normal lvling questing stuff I don't feel like my hands are tied at all.

Good players value good players, regardless of role. Start adding people to your friends list to run groups with.

he's somewhat correct. a sniper should at least get some healing probe or probe with a dmg shield or something. even a full lightning sorc can shield a tank and dish out a few heals in a pinch. maybe instead of heals or defensive group skills they can add a group offensive skill like buffing probe or DOT probe.

 

snipers get a 3 second 100% dodge ability, a shield probe that absorbs a "mnoderate amount of dmg" and Ballistic Shield, which is an AoE 20% dmg reudction ability. not to mention ballistic dampners.

Loudent, Don't let others keep you from playing if you like the class. Most people who Fail at sniper play the class all wrong anyways. I'm 41 and I solo all the time easily, even boss mobs with adds. There isn't a problem with the class its a problem with the players not understanding the class enough to be good at it. If your in a group that is moving fast through a dungeon dont bother sitting if you don't want to. at higher levels you get shots that allow you to stand and dps and then when its an "OH CRAP" pull watch a sniper tear thru mobs like butter and save a group. Most people like to run around with glow sticks and bang on crap. Snipers take time, and reading, researching to be good.

 

Sorry, you fail at game design. If only a small number of people are able to succeed with one class, and not others, then there's a problem with the class.

 

I solo all the time, fairly easily as well, but I'm also realistic enough to know a few things:

 

1. The skill threshold of the sniper class isn't rewarded with a corresponding increase in power, DPS or the like. While there is an eventual payoff with series of shots and followthrough, the rampup in levels is too high, and the sniper throughout the early game is much too weak and vulnerable.

 

2. The marksmanship tree absolutely MUST have a skill which makes them immune from being taken out of cover. It's far too easy to utterly cripple a MM sniper in PvP, as he is built around being strong in cover and less than weak outside of cover.

 

3. Sniper CC tools are disorganized and there's too few usable outside of cover to enable any kind of survival after closed in on and removed from cover.

 

4. The biggest single problem with this class is the range of the primary "sniper" skills being an irrelevant distance from any other ranged skill, and not a major corresponding increase in damage to compensate. There is a strong mobility sacrifice and vulnerability to having the gap closed, there needs to be a range increase to compensate.

 

While it's true that snipers can be very strong 1v1, this is ONLY true if the sniper has time to set up, and gets the jump on his opponent. If the sniper is the one that gets jumped, it's a free kill for the non-sniper.

 

Finally, and I think this is the most irritating part of being a sniper. The RP aspect of dialogues with bosses then jumping into immediate combat is completely counter to the playstyle of snipers, and puts them at a major disadvantage against those encounters, simply because they cannot control the beginning of the fight.

Sorry, you fail at game design. If only a small number of people are able to succeed with one class, and not others, then there's a problem with the class.

 

1. Sniper CC tools are disorganized and there's too few usable outside of cover to enable any kind of survival after closed in on and removed from cover.

 

2. While it's true that snipers can be very strong 1v1, this is ONLY true if the sniper has time to set up, and gets the jump on his opponent. If the sniper is the one that gets jumped, it's a free kill for the non-sniper.

 

3. Finally, and I think this is the most irritating part of being a sniper. The RP aspect of dialogues with bosses then jumping into immediate combat is completely counter to the playstyle of snipers, and puts them at a major disadvantage against those encounters, simply because they cannot control the beginning of the fight.

 

i disagree with these above statements

 

1. really? i'm L28 and here's what i can use...

- debilitate, flashbang, leg shot, distraction, evasion, and flashbang (against lower mobs) are all useable out of cover

- cover pulse, and ambush knockback (if talented) only need cover, and if you are entrenched, you're not supposed to be taken out of cover

 

2. getting jumped doesn't necessarily mean a free kill, use your cc's as above, and you can mitigate the surprise factor

for ex. debilitate, knife, leg shot, run to cover or flash bang, run to cover

 

3. ignoring the RP comment, you can control the fight using cc's as mentioned above... frequently, the convo ends, i immediately drop into cover, start ambush, kaliyo jumps in the fight, etc. (NOTE: if you find she's not attacking as fast as you would like, it's easy to Ctrl + 1)

 

it's not failed game design, it's a failure of you to learn to play... educate yourself the same way i did... it's a very good guide...

 

http://swtorsniper.blogspot.com/2011/11/guide-preview-introduction-and-table-of.html

Edited December 31, 2011 by wessik

i disagree with these above statements

 

1. really? i'm L28 and here's what i can use...

- debilitate, flashbang, leg shot, distraction, evasion, and flashbang (against lower mobs) are all useable out of cover

 

 

You can disagree all day long, but as long as you confuse accuracy debuffs and evasion with CC, then you don't know what you're talking about. What you have for cc is Debilitate Flashbang, and to a much lesser degree, leg shot.

 

Debilitate is only usable in melee range.

Legshot is only useful against 100% melee characters

And Flashbang is well.... it could be the most useful of the 3, and it sucks to high heaven.

 

Making lists of skills without any context or statement of usefulness is so ... world of warcraft, it's the actual usefulness of those skills that makes the difference, in the context of your opponents' ability or abilities to overcome those skills.

 

So, if your question is: "Are snipers good against Marauders" the answer is clearly yes, however that's only when the marauder is being played wrong (a solo marauder is a pathetic violation of the intent of the class). The fact is that most melee oriented toons also have significant ranged attacks which equal the range of our "snipe" skills and nearly equal the damage without ANY of the limitations provided to us via cover and loss of mobility.

 

 

 

 

- cover pulse, and ambush knockback (if talented) only need cover, and if you are entrenched, you're not supposed to be taken out of cover

 

If you are in need of CC and can spare the time of an ambush, then your definition of "need" differs dramatically from mine, especially since ambush isn't particularly useful without a corresponding legshot, and that's only again, against melee specific toons (read marauders). Cover pulse is good, and many of the skills out of context are also "good" but they're disorganized, and are far too weak, and mostly meaningless against moderate ranged killers (such as BH's and sorcerers).

 

There should be instead: 1-2 standing CC's that are effective vs. melee, 1-2 that are effective vs. ranged. The best would be a shadowstep type of skill that puts you at a range behind your opponent, stopping their assault and giving you a "fight or flee" option while they look for you.

 

A burst speed buff to create a gap is appropriate as well.

 

Entrench is an insult, as it should be full time as a skill. The notion that you should be able to be taken out of cover, which is by far the biggest debuff in the entire game, bar none as a MM sniper is really lame.

 

 

2. getting jumped doesn't necessarily mean a free kill, use your cc's as above, and you can mitigate the surprise factor

for ex. debilitate, knife, leg shot, run to cover or flash bang, run to cover

 

Maybe you only fight marauders or soloing 100% melee toons, but your suggestion is instant snared death when playing against any kind of competent opponent. The only way to escape and reset that actually works is can the knife, debilitate and take off while they're deibilitated. If you have time or the LOS to flash bang, then that's not really a pressure situation.

 

 

3. ignoring the RP comment, you can control the fight using cc's as mentioned above... frequently, the convo ends, i immediately drop into cover, start ambush, kaliyo jumps in the fight, etc. (NOTE: if you find she's not attacking as fast as you would like, it's easy to Ctrl + 1)

 

How is dropping into cover in the face of an opponent in any way, shape or form, playing the style of the sniper? How on earth is it even remotely like being able to set up your fight in advance, CCing the strong, and picking off the weak then focusing on the strong, particularly when due to range, one or more are often not even in your field of view? The fact is that the mechanics of NPC conversations place snipers at a tremendous disadvantage in those boss fights. That's lazy programming or lack of foresight by the game design staff. There re several solutions, especially since pretty much all of them are in sniper specific instances... such as debuffing the melee damage of the opponent for the first 15 seconds of a fight, or altering them so the sniper "escapes" and gets his ranged and opening advantage, etc etc.

 

 

it's not failed game design, it's a failure of you to learn to play... educate yourself the same way i did... it's a very good guide...

 

http://swtorsniper.blogspot.com/2011/11/guide-preview-introduction-and-table-of.html

 

I'm sorry you're so confused, when I said "you fail at game design", I was insulting Deacons, who made a statement that was completely ignorant of how good balance occurs, I wasn't talking about Bioware. I never said that this game design is failed, it's actually quite good, however that's not to say that there aren't problems, and there's nothing wrong with pointing out those problems. I'm actually doing quite well with my sniper, however that doesn't mean that there's not issues with them, so while I appreciate your advice, my critiques have nothing to do with not being able to perform, I perform fine, however I want to enjoy the class more, and the issues above (along with the major one of snipe skill range) are glaring ones.

Great voice acting? Amazing story? Shiny ship? What more do you need?

-20% damage reduction oh **** CD to whole team that is inside the bubble(big bubble)

-Slicing bots (take mobs out of fights)

-good amount of damage in both Multi target and singel

-knock down weaker targets and stun when **** hits the fan on trash or accident pull( low hp tank)

-on demend burst when needed while a bounty/warrior need time to build up their momentum

 

I say we perfectly viable and I have no problem in hardmodes so far (going for operaiton, sure a hybrid can probley switch to "tank mode" but most of them don't wear a shield generator for obvious reason and non speced healers will not last longer then 2-3 cast of slow and low medpack healing

 

you could probley switch to shield generator to off hand but that will not make them into "bam he can tank" and if somone is speced "off tank" for **** happens moment it often better just get a better tank....or group that can cordinate

Great voice acting? Amazing story? Shiny ship? What more do you need?

 

The story is really what keeps me playing my Sniper. I'm incredibly interested in it right now.

 

Plus I have the best ship in the universe.