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PvP players deserve better (5.1 changes and the inherent flaws within)


AllisonLightning

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http://dulfy.net/2017/01/20/swtor-galactic-command-gearing-changes-5-1/

 

Someone over on the PvP board did some maths that comes across as pure nightmare fuel. That to get a full, tier 3 set for one character would take 1,077 wins. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=911557, full credit to jedcjedcjedc's efforts. They popped my lovely little bubble about this being an improvement.

 

Now, I'd like to think I've been fairly even tempered about this but this is ridiculous. We got comms from dailies and weeklies before, we got comms via medals and MvP votes and we get an extremely nerfed way to gear that would require- guessing down a ten minute warzone per round win- 179.5 hours, over 7 days in game with winning every time without any slow pops or anything else to get enough Unassembled Components with one character.

 

Now I'm furious. PvP players are among your most constant subs, we (I do story, run FPs but PvP is special) play daily because we love PvP, create alts for the different playstyles and essentially you've made it so we aren't really getting the gear and we would have to be unlucky all the way to the next expansion to be in a position where we didn't get them from Command Crates for one character.

 

Unless you rectify this and it's as bad as the maths works out to be, I'm not unsubbing but I will stop helping new players, I will stop being that positive beacon encouraging people to stay. I'm one of the few people who actually cares and you make me want to make this game as unwelcoming as possible because you took the sub dollars given while I stayed subbed during the drought before the sub rewards later to make gearing which shouldn't even be a factor in PvP play into a nightmare where we endured frellwits who couldn't be bothered trying- they were just there for the CXP and ruined our perfect gearing system.

 

We were happy with the 208 standard last expansion. It let us do the content we wanted up to HM Flashpoints and Story Mode Operations and you destroyed that and now you're pretending you fixed it. Like Christopher Pyne, an Australian politician in a clip I find appropriate as you lot of morons in a Star Wars themed fixer clip.

 

 

You broke it and you've handed us back the sticky taped wreck. Now, if you excuse me- I actually play the game that is getting longer queue times on Harbinger of all places. So, I'm off to go wait for my slow pops.

 

:t_frown:

Edited by AllisonLightning
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I'm a pretty casual pvp player who mains a Republic toon on Begeren Colony. If I get a win for every 5 matches I consider myself lucky. Now imagine how frustrating this token rate is for me.

 

If the win/loss rate was 2:1 it would still be annoying, but at least it would be in line with other pvp activities, where a win usually counts as two matches. But at a 5:2 rate it's just... I may well stop pvping Republic and save myself the frustration. That, or stop pvping altogether.

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The problem with math is it needs to be based on valid assumptions. That math is not.

 

This system is NOT meant to be the primary means of gearing. That is what the gear boxes are for from GC.

 

This system is there to fill in the gaps to take the sting out of RNG. Whether it goes far enough remains to be seen, but right now all the commentary on the new system just comes across as "I want best stuff fast! gimme gimme gimme"

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The problem with math is it needs to be based on valid assumptions. That math is not.

 

This system is NOT meant to be the primary means of gearing. That is what the gear boxes are for from GC.

 

This system is there to fill in the gaps to take the sting out of RNG. Whether it goes far enough remains to be seen, but right now all the commentary on the new system just comes across as "I want best stuff fast! gimme gimme gimme"

 

The sting will be removed from the RNG when they remove the RNG. You still have the potential to have terrible luck with RNG, save up enough to buy a piece you need and then see it in the next command crate causing everything you just invested to be wasted.

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Case in point: my main Pub toon got a 230 set chestpiece on her very first command crate. thirty-something crates later, she has another set item and two more identical chestpieces. .

 

Last November I was in the "let's wait and see" camp regarding the Command system. I waited. I saw. It's... bad. Very bad. And frankly I don't see 5.1 in a better light.

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Case in point: my main Pub toon got a 230 set chestpiece on her very first command crate. thirty-something crates later, she has another set item and two more identical chestpieces. .

 

Last November I was in the "let's wait and see" camp regarding the Command system. I waited. I saw. It's... bad. Very bad. And frankly I don't see 5.1 in a better light.

 

5.1 is bad for PvP, it's bad for Raiders, it's bad for everyone. They didn't fix anything, they came up with something they could point ant and say "Look, we listen to you." But, it's just smoke and mirrors, the problem is still the GC system being used for end game gearing. They are fools and don't deserve a single nickle from a subscriber until they get rid of GC for end game gearing.

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So you get good CXP, Isotopes, VMC's, Schematics, Conquest points, AND set piece components you can buy or upgrade gear with.

 

Seems like a lot to me.

 

I agree with this. From what I see from that math however, it's going under the assumption that he gets ZERO gear from the Crates that he'd be getting from doing all of those PvP matches anyway.

Edited by Toraak
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A real quick back-of-the-envelope calculation:

 

* I win 1 match for every 6 I play on Pub toons;

* Of all matches played, roughly 1/4 of them are Arenas

* Given the Unassembled Gear Pieces awarded for each type of PvP match, I can expect to earn an average of 2.2 pieces for every match I play over a long series of matches.

 

Now, I need 1,290 unassembled gear pieces to fully equip a character in Tier 1 gear. That in turns mean I need to play about 585 matches to get enough UGPs to gear up.

 

* Of those 585 pvp matches I assume to win about 97 times. DvL bonuses are unpredictable, but let's say I get about 600 CXP for a win and 400 CPX for a loss. I then stand to gain 58,415 CXP for the wins, and 195,200 CXP for the defeats, for a grand total of 253,615, which puts me at... I don't know, but it's less than the "unreachable" weekly cap on CXP. Since I'm already at level 35, I'll go on a limb an say that if I do nothing else, I'll be on Tier 2, around level 100. At which point I would be starting the long grind for the next tier of gear.

 

So, the new 5.1 system? Yeah, it might "lessen the sting", but not so much, and certainly not for me.

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Hey, no offense taken, if you're worried about that :-)

 

But yes, I fully understood that the new 5.1 system is meant to be in support of what we already have, and that we'll be able to keep earning gear via command crates. What I meant is that weeks after 5.0 I'm still way behind the gearing curve due to several factors -- rotten luck being the foremost. So, in place of an environment like 4.0 where after two weeks of regular pvp play I could get a decent set of gear that was appropriate for the content I was doing, I now get... almost nothing. I dreadful grind with no end in sight, and no control over what piece I get.

 

Will 5.1 lessen the sting, as was said? Well, yes. A bit. But given the current environment, it will not be a very good deal *for me*. So I may well tap out.

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Hey, no offense taken, if you're worried about that :-)

 

But yes, I fully understood that the new 5.1 system is meant to be in support of what we already have, and that we'll be able to keep earning gear via command crates. What I meant is that weeks after 5.0 I'm still way behind the gearing curve due to several factors -- rotten luck being the foremost. So, in place of an environment like 4.0 where after two weeks of regular pvp play I could get a decent set of gear that was appropriate for the content I was doing, I now get... almost nothing. I dreadful grind with no end in sight, and no control over what piece I get.

 

Will 5.1 lessen the sting, as was said? Well, yes. A bit. But given the current environment, it will not be a very good deal *for me*. So I may well tap out.

 

There is no silver bullet approach in 5.0 for gear upgrades. The best approach is a combination approach.... beginning with crafted pieces, and carryover armor mods for set bonus to begin with.. then move on from there... which also includes good viability in crafted items where crates or 5.1 mechanics are not sufficient for ones needs.

 

I know it would be nice if they dumbed down end game gearing for players to the 4.0 model... but that is not what we have.

 

Gearing is more of a challenge in 5.0... but the challenge is not insurmountable unless people fixate on grinding for crates, and now tokens+tokens.

 

I find it ironic that the players most likely to complain about the studio dumbing down the game, are the same ones wanting a dumbed down version of gear acquisition. Which is NOT me saying GC is fine.. it's not.. it's broken, and 5.1 does not fix it. I am simply stating that players appear to be unwilling to think outside of their habit patterns established in earlier expacs, especially 4.0.

 

A blended approach to progressive gearing is what works in 5.0... some crafted, some carry-over, and some progression through GC. That seems to be too much for some people to wrap their arms around though.

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@Dbohrius ...

 

The first part wasn't directed towards you specificly, it was directed at all who are complaining :p ... The secong part (after the Quote of your post) was the part meant for you directly :o ... I should have made that it bit more transparent - sorry if there was a misunderstandig because of it ;) ...

 

 

Best regards

Kage

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I'm a pretty casual pvp player who mains a Republic toon on Begeren Colony. If I get a win for every 5 matches I consider myself lucky. Now imagine how frustrating this token rate is for me.

 

If the win/loss rate was 2:1 it would still be annoying, but at least it would be in line with other pvp activities, where a win usually counts as two matches. But at a 5:2 rate it's just... I may well stop pvping Republic and save myself the frustration. That, or stop pvping altogether.

 

The one and only truly awesome thing about Galactic Command so far has been this: Due to CXP, I cannot remember the last time I was back-filled into an automatic loss warzone while solo queing. This has been so wonderful. PvP is much more fun than it was when I would get back-filled match after match after match.

 

If this new change causes people to quit losing warzones again I'm going to scream.

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The problem with math is it needs to be based on valid assumptions. That math is not.

 

This system is NOT meant to be the primary means of gearing. That is what the gear boxes are for from GC.

 

This system is there to fill in the gaps to take the sting out of RNG. Whether it goes far enough remains to be seen, but right now all the commentary on the new system just comes across as "I want best stuff fast! gimme gimme gimme"

 

There's a BIG difference between "I want stuff fast" and "I don't want to participate in a system that requires me to grind old content for 6 months just to have a chance to get high end gear on one character." Galactic Command is exactly what the latter quote is, and this update doesn't do much to change that.

 

RNG is NOT OK, no matter what anyone says to try and defend it. It's a broken system that rewards players based on luck, as opposed to actually playing the game and putting in the man-hours for a reward. It is not, and never will be an acceptable form of gearing. PvPers are, once again, getting the short end of the stick...along with flashpoint runners and anyone else who doesn't have time to run a full operation and/or be the designated "chosen one" that's guaranteed to get the unassembled piece from the final boss.

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I agree with this. From what I see from that math however, it's going under the assumption that he gets ZERO gear from the Crates that he'd be getting from doing all of those PvP matches anyway.

 

She although the wonderful person who did the initial maths, I don't know. And PvP players go with multiple characters and I'd like to point out I've been pushing three characters through Galactic Command ranks since the expansion launched. I did the story first and then started working on my main. I'm pulling a fourth up to 70 to join them.

 

I don't want the schematics and while the crafting supplies that unless they are in the weekly box are an RNG and are good high selling cookies, I'd trade them in a second just to have last expansion's system back. I've gotten so many relics in Command Crates that are useless for PvP- and I've said in the past the only positive of the CXP gains (which by the way, even at a lowly Rank 19 which is what the lowest is, no set gear on her yet) it's one a day since she's Republic.

 

I have been playing my main, day in, day out since 5.0 dropped. She isn't in full 230 gear- she's Rank 64 and that's with a lot of wins because I don't do Operations or Uprisings- and it's coming on two months soon and she isn't even on entry level set bonus gear. My Tank is Rank 30- and I'm supposed to be training my mirror class up for the grand total of five characters I can endgame PvP on once done with story and I hit 70. I try and play on Republic side but it's absolutely a nightmare fest at the moment.

 

Gear wasn't important last expansion for us. None of the CXP farmers want to be there and some of them have the audacity to throw matches just because PvPing gets in the way of things they'd rather do. Give us 230 Expertise gear and I'd quite happily never have 242/max level gear because it'd be irrelevant, the way it was meant to be and it gets about PvPing. Stop dismissing people who PvP as idiots who 'want gear now'. Under the old system, I'd have had enough to have an expertise set- that new person who started playing would and gear would be a distant thought to the match at hand.

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The sting will be removed from the RNG when they remove the RNG. You still have the potential to have terrible luck with RNG, save up enough to buy a piece you need and then see it in the next command crate causing everything you just invested to be wasted.

 

Damn I didn't think of that. I would be majorly pissed off if that happened. You should have the ability to convert the piece you pick up back to the raw mats that it would be required to farm with the currency.

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I'm a pve player who does not have time to do OPS. I don't even have this chance to grind as PVP players do.

 

You could be worse off, way worse off.

 

But if you don't do ops or pvp, you don't need the best armor as you'll never be doing content that will require it. If anything you are in the best position because you'll never need anything past T2

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She although the wonderful person who did the initial maths, I don't know. And PvP players go with multiple characters and I'd like to point out I've been pushing three characters through Galactic Command ranks since the expansion launched. I did the story first and then started working on my main. I'm pulling a fourth up to 70 to join them.

 

I don't want the schematics and while the crafting supplies that unless they are in the weekly box are an RNG and are good high selling cookies, I'd trade them in a second just to have last expansion's system back. I've gotten so many relics in Command Crates that are useless for PvP- and I've said in the past the only positive of the CXP gains (which by the way, even at a lowly Rank 19 which is what the lowest is, no set gear on her yet) it's one a day since she's Republic.

 

I have been playing my main, day in, day out since 5.0 dropped. She isn't in full 230 gear- she's Rank 64 and that's with a lot of wins because I don't do Operations or Uprisings- and it's coming on two months soon and she isn't even on entry level set bonus gear. My Tank is Rank 30- and I'm supposed to be training my mirror class up for the grand total of five characters I can endgame PvP on once done with story and I hit 70. I try and play on Republic side but it's absolutely a nightmare fest at the moment.

 

Gear wasn't important last expansion for us. None of the CXP farmers want to be there and some of them have the audacity to throw matches just because PvPing gets in the way of things they'd rather do. Give us 230 Expertise gear and I'd quite happily never have 242/max level gear because it'd be irrelevant, the way it was meant to be and it gets about PvPing. Stop dismissing people who PvP as idiots who 'want gear now'. Under the old system, I'd have had enough to have an expertise set- that new person who started playing would and gear would be a distant thought to the match at hand.

 

I gave up worrying about playing lvl 70 until they eventually fix the system better. Especially as it hasn't been Alt friendly.

With 36 toon and 32 of them lvl 65, I've just been playing all my alts till I get them to 70, then I switch toons. I've also cut back my play time because of this fiasco. So it's taking much longer to lvl those than what it used to.

Before 5.0, I used to play every day between 4-8 hours. Since the launch the space between those days have been getting long and the play times are down to about 2-3 hours max.

I've even been close to unsubing like my partner did and that's still a possibility because pop times for mids is getting stupid. I waited 20 mins between each pops in prime time yesterday. So I havent even bothered logging in today.

It had been nearly a whole week of not playing till I logged in yesterday. So going from daily 8 hour sessions to logging in one a week for 2 hours doesn't bode well for me continuing my sub.

I'm sure I was slightly addicted to swtor before 5.0, but it's now broken that addiction and I'm actively looking for another game.

It's a real shame because I've played since launch and until 5.0 I have only missed about 30 days in total. I was a loyal swtor fan (addict), I'm not sure if I should thank Bio for breaking that addiction or not because I'm having difficulty finding something else. :mad:

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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Why do PVPers expect better? PVP is not the main game nor as it ever really been the main driving force of the game, it as always been like Operations something to do once you had completed the main game.

 

Just because you choose to play more PVP than do actual group PVE content why should you be reward better for gaining gear?

 

At least with the PVE tokens there is a reason to get them, you work as a group to over come difficult opposition, you gain a true team building experience and achieve something, whereas in PVP you achieve your "greatness" by finding which "class" as been given the better stats and then take the advantage.

 

I think the system is fair enough, if you truly spend your life on this game queueing for Warzones then the amount of components needed will be easily achievable. Remember for the casual PVPer this probably would help because again you need to dedicate yourself to the task in hand, but also in PVP you are already earning one of the highest CXP gains there anyway so the RNG gods could well and truly smile on you before you even get close to a Tier token which means by the time your heading into the T2/T3 slots you will have amassed a collection of these tokens.

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