Ever since GC came out, I've been trying to articulate in my head what bothers me about it. Others have already complained about the RNG and the grind, but for me it's more than that. It signals a fundamental change in how players approach the game.

 

The attempt to create a gearing system which allows players to do whatever content they want and still advance in gear tiers is an admirable goal, but GC still fails. I think it's because GC is designed to manipulate your brain through negative reinforcement, and that is due to its linear and cumulative nature.

 

You must grind GC levels or you will fall behind everyone else (friends guildmates, players on your server, etc.).

You must grind GC levels on your main only; playing alts will cause your main will fall behind.

You must grind GC levels efficiently, playing content that gives the most bang for your buck, or you are wasting precious time.

 

Of course you don't have to do these things, and noncompetitive players will rail against changing their gaming habits over this, but even they will feel the burden of this psychological manipulation just the same. The system is designed to create urgency, even in some cases, fear or guilt.

 

If I don't grind GC levels, then when new tiers are added, I will fall behind.

If I play my alts/decorate my stronghold, etc, then I will fall behind.

If I fall behind, I will never be able to catch up.

If I fall behind, I won't be able to do the content I want to do if/when I want to do it. (This includes things like being able to solo the Star Fortresses or complete Eternal Command. It's not only group content that requires higher gear tiers to complete!)

 

Feeling guilty and conflicted when playing (when you should be grinding GC tiers with the time you have you know!) is not fun.

 

I played a game once, in the 90's, that had a linear leveling system based on time spent grinding. It was discouraging and eventually inspired feelings of hopelessness. After toiling too long in that game, I vowed to never play a game with a system like that again.

 

It bothers me that the GC system reminds me of my days in that game. Playing a game should reward players will feelings of fun. The GC system is designed to create negative feelings that can only be alleviated by grinding, which is the opposite. You don't have to throw the entire system out, but please consider the "feel" of the system when making changes. Gaining levels and crates should feel like a bonus, an extra you get on top of playing, rather than a requirement and a burden.

Edited February 19, 2017 by CloudCastle

Interesting way to look at it. I think I agree with all of what you wrote.

 

...

The system is designed to create urgency, even in some cases, fear or guilt.

...

 

"Guilt" is definitely true for me, especially when I log into my non-main characters. I have barely played them in the last several weeks.

IMO, that is a player perception problem, not a problem with the system. Instead of seeing the positive, some players only want to focus on the negative and play the victim.

 

That said, could the system use some adjustment? Yes, but, IMO, we do not need to go back to the :Easy mode, light speed gearing" that was the 4.0 loot pinata system.

 

There will always be those that will have the "have to have it NOW!! Have to get there at light speed, no matter the cost. Have to be the top .00001% no matter the cost" attitudes, but they will never be satisfied.

 

Check the WoW forums. You will find them full of threads complaining that there are new tiers of skills coming with the new patch and people cannot "get a head start", or that they have to start on an even footing with everyone else. The forums are full of the "this game is killing alts" threads.

IMO, that is a player perception problem, not a problem with the system. Instead of seeing the positive, some players only want to focus on the negative and play the victim.

>Implying there are positives with this system

 

Dude, I play this game A LOT and my supposed MAIN character only has THREE purple shells! During 4.0 the rate at which you could fully gear and even min/max multiple characters was overtuned, but now the rate to just fully gear ONE toon is severely undertuned.

I liked SWTOR when you could spend a reasonable amount of time to gear up.

Those crates aren't the real grind, the real grind is pvp tokens to upgrade gear.

However those can only be attained at lvl70.

 

<70 pvp is rather fun, 70s isn't because you hit the t2+ geared people when you're only half in t1 with at most 1 t3 piece.

 

This bonus exp is rather detrimental as you can't enjoy <70 pvp but are brought to the slaughter sooner.

 

What's there to do at 70?

Do 9 raid zones.

9

All the while being told how terrible you are because your dps is low, since you don't have gear.

But you run those raids, if you even manage to find a raid group, to get gear.

It's completely demotivating.

 

Also it seem like all the "major" MMO executives have teamed up and are now filling their "content" or rather lack thereof with grind.

No wonder why mobas are popular.

 

The thing about the crate grind is you grind up to t2 then start an even longer grind.

 

Idk. I have about 3 weeks left of subscription time and won't extend it.

"It's a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there"

 

Again, pvp pre those arkan quests was rather fun. Then you became too powerful and at the same time I lost interest in the game. I returned after about 3 years. What I saw was the players being trained to "get crates".

Doesn't work like this, for me anyhow.

 

I don't feel guilt, the game isn't important enough to feel anything.

In 5 weeks I have 1 character with 4 pieces of set gear.

That's too slow.

>Implying there are positives with this system

 

Dude, I play this game A LOT and my supposed MAIN character only has THREE purple shells! During 4.0 the rate at which you could fully gear and even min/max multiple characters was overtuned, but now the rate to just fully gear ONE toon is severely undertuned.

 

I said the system could use some adjustment.

 

I do not think we'll see a return to the "easy mode, light speed, loot pinata" gearing system that was 4.0, nor do I think there is a need for a return to the 4.0 loot pinata system.

There will always be those that will have the "have to have it NOW!! Have to get there at light speed, no matter the cost. Have to be the top .00001% no matter the cost" attitudes, but they will never be satisfied.

 

Yes, there are players like this. But this thread is not about those players. Those players are deeply caught in the grind and are probably at least tier 2 by now.

 

I'm concerned about the players who play to have fun and not to grind (more power to you if grinding if fun for you.) These are the players who will left behind by the system and will soon become too discouraged to bother.

 

IMO, that is a player perception problem, not a problem with the system. Instead of seeing the positive, some players only want to focus on the negative and play the victim.

 

Make no mistake, systems like these were intentionally designed to hit certain psychological nerves in players based on elements of human nature. This is not something you can simple "will away" with a good attitude.

It's a system where you really have to rock it. Like Sisyphus.

I said the system could use some adjustment.

 

I do not think we'll see a return to the "easy mode, light speed, loot pinata" gearing system that was 4.0, nor do I think there is a need for a return to the 4.0 loot pinata system.

 

For pvp, the system in 4.0 was great. A trivial entry level gear, and then a very small grind to get the top gear which was just a small upgrade from the entry level. Gear wasn't a factor in pvp, just personal kill and team work. As it should be in imo. It also gave the possibilty of playing different roles, different specs very easily, making a much better experience, more fun. The current system makes the game less fun.

 

For pve, the loot piñata came mainly from EV/KP giving out the top end gear through highlighted operations, which was the dumbest thing they could have done. Some people brought this up, but as you imagine, "you elitists you want the best gear for yourself" and blah blah blah....

They never should have put EV/KP into the highlighted rotation. Hell, the whole highlighted operation thing could have been removed and would have been fine. This GC stuff is well beyond correcting the mistake of the highlighted operation.

The system is designed to create urgency, even in some cases, fear or guilt.

 

False assumption, I guess to further prosecute distaste over feeling forced to work at GC.

 

While the system may very well "trigger" such feelings within a player, that is not the same as "creating by intention". There is a clear difference and it would be wise of you to step back a bit and look at it more objectively.

 

Some players approach an MMO with a complete sense of urgency to max level, max gear, and max <you name it>. They are generally also the first to condemn and quit an MMO too.. and not just this one.

 

What is wrong with a relaxed and enjoyable play pace? Nobody is forced to ever touch GC if they don't want to. There are other options that will largely get you to a competitive endpoint in 5.0. In my guild the core raiders and PvPers (which represents about 25-30% of our members) are already largely in 240s (adjusted and tuned to their needs too) and have paid virtually no attention to GC at all.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Andryah

Make no mistake, systems like these were intentionally designed to hit certain psychological nerves in players based on elements of human nature. This is not something you can simple "will away" with a good attitude.

 

^^ I believe that you believe this.

 

None the less.. it is self inflicted belief.

 

Blaming someone or something outside of yourself for your psychological triggers is complete nonsense and shows a clear lack of self awareness in my opinion. Those triggers.. they were most likely embedded in you when you were a child (during the formative years when your personality develops and locks in) ... and you have the power to be aware of them and not let them rule your life.

 

Play smarter, not harder.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Andryah

That sounds spot on to me. It's the other reason, beyond the relentless and increasingly egregious pay-to-win, that my friends and I all walked out of another MMO with 'Star' in the title and ending in 'Online', and it's the reason why I flat refuse to allow "Oh, look, Bioware have put a little gold bonus bar over something in their silly new 'Command' tab" dictate what I'm going to do in the evening or whenever I log in to play a little SWTOR.

Yes, there are players like this. But this thread is not about those players. Those players are deeply caught in the grind and are probably at least tier 2 by now.

 

I'm concerned about the players who play to have fun and not to grind (more power to you if grinding if fun for you.) These are the players who will left behind by the system and will soon become too discouraged to bother.

 

I do not "grind". I do what I find to be fun. I'm just more focused on having fun than I am on having the BiS gear at light speed.

 

 

Make no mistake, systems like these were intentionally designed to hit certain psychological nerves in players based on elements of human nature. This is not something you can simple "will away" with a good attitude.

 

Then, I guess that makes me and those like me an aberration.

 

The system may have been designed to hit certain "psychological nerves", but how well the system works is ultimately is up to the individuals within that system.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Ratajack

Some players are not going to be affected by the psychological need to grind that this system favors. But the system still thrives on that mentality whether you personally are affected or not. I would prefer to see a system based on fun and not one that benefits from negative feedback.

 

In my case, I'm concerned with things like, "If I go about my business doing only what I find fun, and as a result never get past tier 1 in GC, will I be able to still solo Star Fortresses? Will I be able to finish Eternal Championship?" Under 4.0 I needed 216 gear before I was able to successfully do this, and that is this system's equivalent of tier 2. It took me months to work for that 216 gear. I didn't race or rush and I was perfectly ok with that. But I'm not ok if the carrot keeps getting moved further and further back as new tiers and levels are added, and I end up falling so far behind that I can never catch up. I move slowly enough that this is a legitimate concern for me. Working for the gear is not the issue. Rushing for the gear at some break-neck speed is not the issue. The vertical, linear nature of this system is. It is completely unforgiving.

 

I've been playing my alts and doing things that "inefficiently" move my GC levels. I'm stubborn enough that I'm not going to change my play style and give in to the grind. But even a player as noncompetitive as myself still recognizes that doing what I love is not favored by this system. Even I feel that niggling bit of guilt every so often wondering, "If I play this alt too much, will I fall behind and eventually be unable to do group content with my guild once in a while?"

 

Keeping up or falling behind is the very nature of a vertical, cumulative system.

It would, if one were to feel stressed about lvling up GC as fast as possible, to get the highest tier gear.

 

I fall in the minority on this one, as falling behind in getting my GC lv's up, or getting the highest tier gear, hasn't concerned me on bit. My GC on any one of my lv 70 toons has gotten no higher than lv 21, and I've been in no hurry to lv it.

For pvp, the system in 4.0 was great. A trivial entry level gear, and then a very small grind to get the top gear which was just a small upgrade from the entry level. Gear wasn't a factor in pvp, just personal kill and team work. As it should be in imo. It also gave the possibilty of playing different roles, different specs very easily, making a much better experience, more fun. The current system makes the game less fun.

 

For pve, the loot piñata came mainly from EV/KP giving out the top end gear through highlighted operations, which was the dumbest thing they could have done. Some people brought this up, but as you imagine, "you elitists you want the best gear for yourself" and blah blah blah....

They never should have put EV/KP into the highlighted rotation. Hell, the whole highlighted operation thing could have been removed and would have been fine. This GC stuff is well beyond correcting the mistake of the highlighted operation.

 

The irony of people defending GC and how easy 4.0 gearing was (LETS NOT FORGET NiM not dropping BiS and only Highlighted dropping 224 till they fixed that debacle after all the NiM teams left many months later) would be whining that they would have to do NiM for BiS and not Farm it via faceroll Singleplayer content. Throwing snowballs and getting crates for BiS is silly but casuals would whine if it was 3.0 or like any other game where difficult content equals rewards. Hypocrites will be Hypocrites.

Edited February 20, 2017 by FerkWork

GC still sucks wow i checked the game out for the event and wow rng wowowow

GC still sucks wow i checked the game out for the event and wow rng wowowow

 

I've been playing FF where Gear is reserved for the skillful not how much you gamble doing faceroll content.

Edited February 20, 2017 by FerkWork

I've been playing FF where Gear is reserved for the skillful not how much you gamble doing faceroll content.

I've similarly been playing WoW and it remains the pinnacle of you get what you play for imho. Raiders progress through PvE elder game & tiered end game raid content for guaranteed PvE end game gear drops. End game PvPers grind ranked PvP for PvP end game tier gear. The twain should never meet because they are completely different disciplines. Blizzard solved this by adding PvP talent trees. This game's cheap-to-maintain one-size-fits-all system belongs in a solo RPG where insecure players have a reset button to lean on ... not in a live MMO. Edited February 20, 2017 by GalacticKegger

Some players are not going to be affected by the psychological need to grind that this system favors. But the system still thrives on that mentality whether you personally are affected or not. I would prefer to see a system based on fun and not one that benefits from negative feedback.

 

In my case, I'm concerned with things like, "If I go about my business doing only what I find fun, and as a result never get past tier 1 in GC, will I be able to still solo Star Fortresses? Will I be able to finish Eternal Championship?" Under 4.0 I needed 216 gear before I was able to successfully do this, and that is this system's equivalent of tier 2. It took me months to work for that 216 gear. I didn't race or rush and I was perfectly ok with that. But I'm not ok if the carrot keeps getting moved further and further back as new tiers and levels are added, and I end up falling so far behind that I can never catch up. I move slowly enough that this is a legitimate concern for me. Working for the gear is not the issue. Rushing for the gear at some break-neck speed is not the issue. The vertical, linear nature of this system is. It is completely unforgiving.

 

I've been playing my alts and doing things that "inefficiently" move my GC levels. I'm stubborn enough that I'm not going to change my play style and give in to the grind. But even a player as noncompetitive as myself still recognizes that doing what I love is not favored by this system. Even I feel that niggling bit of guilt every so often wondering, "If I play this alt too much, will I fall behind and eventually be unable to do group content with my guild once in a while?"

 

Keeping up or falling behind is the very nature of a vertical, cumulative system.

 

This would be mostly true if GC was your only option to gear up, which it isn't. You can craft or buy the gear you need from the gtn to do star fortresses or eternal championship. It breaks my heart to seek guild members endlessly grinding content they do not find fun because they feel they need to. They don't.

 

The guild i spend most my time in has a core nim raid group, not something I'm the least bit interested in. Not one of them has a full set of purple gear. They supplement their armour with crafted 240 mods, enhancements and hilts. If nim raiders don't need to grind GC then why should anyone else? Bolster works well in pvp, so again no need to grind cxp.

 

Like everyone else I have lots of alts, my main is GC level 102 by doing nothing more than content I enjoy, pvp and sm ops. I spend most my time levelling new alts or pvping on old ones. I barely notice the cxp I gain because I don't think it's significant. I can spend several hours redecorating a stronghold totally guilt free.

 

What I'm saying is I understand your point but if anyone feels they need to change their play style due to this system then it's on them and they are doing it wrong.

Some players are not going to be affected by the psychological need to grind that this system favors. But the system still thrives on that mentality whether you personally are affected or not. I would prefer to see a system based on fun and not one that benefits from negative feedback.

 

In my case, I'm concerned with things like, "If I go about my business doing only what I find fun, and as a result never get past tier 1 in GC, will I be able to still solo Star Fortresses? Will I be able to finish Eternal Championship?" Under 4.0 I needed 216 gear before I was able to successfully do this, and that is this system's equivalent of tier 2. It took me months to work for that 216 gear. I didn't race or rush and I was perfectly ok with that. But I'm not ok if the carrot keeps getting moved further and further back as new tiers and levels are added, and I end up falling so far behind that I can never catch up. I move slowly enough that this is a legitimate concern for me. Working for the gear is not the issue. Rushing for the gear at some break-neck speed is not the issue. The vertical, linear nature of this system is. It is completely unforgiving.

 

I've been playing my alts and doing things that "inefficiently" move my GC levels. I'm stubborn enough that I'm not going to change my play style and give in to the grind. But even a player as noncompetitive as myself still recognizes that doing what I love is not favored by this system. Even I feel that niggling bit of guilt every so often wondering, "If I play this alt too much, will I fall behind and eventually be unable to do group content with my guild once in a while?"

 

Keeping up or falling behind is the very nature of a vertical, cumulative system.

 

You're not alone in feeling as you do. I prefer to decorate and play all my characters and make new alts, but since the new grind, I too, feel compelled to do it. Not so much for the gear, oddly enough, but for the levels. I suppose I'm a bit compulsive that way. Whether I'm lvl 5 or 155, it's not going to matter because I don't group with people, but I'm compulsive enough, that I can't stand knowing there is a thing that needs to be maxed out, and not do it, so I'm half way through my second tier (also partly because my monitor croaked so I haven't been able to write and post like I want, but I have been able to play the game on the hubby's pc).

 

But yeah, because of the grind, I feel compelled to have to play my main outlander, instead of working on my alts or decorating like I want. When I get my main outlander done, then I'll be able to relax a bit more.

What's there to do at 70?

Do 9 raid zones.

9

All the while being told how terrible you are because your dps is low, since you don't have gear.

But you run those raids, if you even manage to find a raid group, to get gear.

It's completely demotivating.

 

Story has bolster so gear doesn't matter as long as you have something in every slot. If your dps is low here gear isn't your biggest issue. Veteran is doable in 230s you get in Story. ToS probably requires some 234s but you should get enough 236s from other ops. Get into 236s and start doing Master mode for 242s.

You must grind GC levels or you will fall behind everyone else (friends guildmates, players on your server, etc.).

You don't need to grind GC levels in order to do harder content outside of maybe NiM (in which case you can have your friends craft you 240 gear). Your friends will not leave you behind because of your gear level as long as it is optimized and you know your rotations.

 

You must grind GC levels on your main only; playing alts will cause your main will fall behind.

 

True for GC, you'd want to grind it on a DPS and Tank main to get easy access to 240's, but if you wanna guarantee BiS you want unassembled components. And with the coming changes to PvP weeklies and legacy UC's, you'd wanna have multiple geared alts doing PvP in order to accelerate gearing your main (or get missing set pieces for your alts).

 

Also keep in mind that with CXP packs you can distribute CXP much more flexibly. You can do content on your alts and use all the CXP packs on your main.

 

You must grind GC levels efficiently, playing content that gives the most bang for your buck, or you are wasting precious time.

 

This is only true if the CXP gains are completely out of balance and weekly/daily incentives are underwhelming, which they both currently are. But they plan on addressing this in the next patch a week from now.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Eli_Porter

This would be mostly true if GC was your only option to gear up, which it isn't. You can craft or buy the gear you need from the gtn to do star fortresses or eternal championship. It breaks my heart to seek guild members endlessly grinding content they do not find fun because they feel they need to. They don't.

 

The guild i spend most my time in has a core nim raid group, not something I'm the least bit interested in. Not one of them has a full set of purple gear. They supplement their armour with crafted 240 mods, enhancements and hilts. If nim raiders don't need to grind GC then why should anyone else? Bolster works well in pvp, so again no need to grind cxp.

 

Like everyone else I have lots of alts, my main is GC level 102 by doing nothing more than content I enjoy, pvp and sm ops. I spend most my time levelling new alts or pvping on old ones. I barely notice the cxp I gain because I don't think it's significant. I can spend several hours redecorating a stronghold totally guilt free.

 

What I'm saying is I understand your point but if anyone feels they need to change their play style due to this system then it's on them and they are doing it wrong.

 

Its good that there is an alternative way to get gear via crafting. But please keep in mind two things:

 

1) Not everyone has a wonderful guild that is willing or even able to craft all their members 240 gear.

 

2) Or, not everyone has 90-100 million credits to spend on the GTN to buy 240 rated gear; 8 armorings, 9 mods, 7 enhancements, 1 hilt, ear, implants, relics.

 

Also, speaking of Eternal Championship, has anyone done that in 228/230 gear when they used to do it in 216?

 

It used to take me around 20 minutes to complete Eternal Championship in 216 gear. Now, it takes nearly 35-40 minutes on the same characters in 228/230, This is not fun,

You must grind GC levels or you will fall behind everyone else (friends guildmates, players on your server, etc.).

You must grind GC levels on your main only; playing alts will cause your main will fall behind.

 

Thats why this game will fail very soon. The playerbase will break apart from those who have and those who have not. It will not promote any new players or let alone returning players to catch up with others.

 

Basically it is the maintenance mode already but for many it is hard to swallow and i can understand it.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Divona