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Hatred vs. Deception PvE


nyrkverse's Avatar


nyrkverse
07.16.2017 , 03:50 PM | #11
I was going to ask your opinions about Torque but I see it's been mentioned. That's the one fight I still always switch unless I'm the only melee or there are snipers, even though damage taken can skyrocket

What about Dash'roode? Mostly because cloaking makes you lost in the sandstorm over and over again...

I have to say I don't like Hatred on Underlurker or Commanders at all. Back in 3.0 when it still had range and 8 mt DF to spread, yes. Besides both fights don't really require big things anymore and I feel so much less of a burden for the healers as Deception....they really need to give Hatred a permanent 30 % AoE dmg reduction or something else, it is ridiculously squishy And I want to have a reason to learn it better other than doing something different for the fun of it.
«I'm not cute. I'm deadly»

Evolixe's Avatar


Evolixe
07.16.2017 , 04:00 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by nyrkverse View Post
I was going to ask your opinions about Torque but I see it's been mentioned. That's the one fight I still always switch unless I'm the only melee or there are snipers, even though damage taken can skyrocket

What about Dash'roode? Mostly because cloaking makes you lost in the sandstorm over and over again...

I have to say I don't like Hatred on Underlurker or Commanders at all. Back in 3.0 when it still had range and 8 mt DF to spread, yes. Besides both fights don't really require big things anymore and I feel so much less of a burden for the healers as Deception....they really need to give Hatred a permanent 30 % AoE dmg reduction or something else, it is ridiculously squishy And I want to have a reason to learn it better other than doing something different for the fun of it.
Absolutely not, if you keep getting lost you're really just unlucky.
Dashroode also doesn't have enough adds to benefit Hatred really. Unless your Ranged/Marauders are sleeping.
Deception is miles better on that boss ESP now that you can facemaul and you won't get screwed by knocks as much.
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nyrkverse's Avatar


nyrkverse
07.16.2017 , 11:45 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Evolixe View Post
Absolutely not, if you keep getting lost you're really just unlucky.
Dashroode also doesn't have enough adds to benefit Hatred really. Unless your Ranged/Marauders are sleeping.
Deception is miles better on that boss ESP now that you can facemaul and you won't get screwed by knocks as much.
oh I was under the impression that cloaking sort of resets your place in the "who's been lost already" table making it more likely you can be picked again...not sure I prefer being just unlucky but good to know
«I'm not cute. I'm deadly»

Torvai's Avatar


Torvai
07.17.2017 , 02:59 AM | #14
I'm pretty sure Deception will get a nerf in the next balance round, along with most of the other melee burst specs.
Not that I want it, but according to bioware, melee burst should do roughly the same damage than ranged sustained, which by now all do around 9.5k, give or take a few hundred dps. The only melee burst spec that is within that range is Fury atm. At least according to top parses. Because that's the best way to balance, obviously

Anyway, when that happens, hatred would most likey be a real alternative on most fights, imo.

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
07.17.2017 , 03:34 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Torvai View Post
I'm pretty sure Deception will get a nerf in the next balance round, along with most of the other melee burst specs.
Not that I want it, but according to bioware, melee burst should do roughly the same damage than ranged sustained, which by now all do around 9.5k, give or take a few hundred dps. The only melee burst spec that is within that range is Fury atm. At least according to top parses. Because that's the best way to balance, obviously

Anyway, when that happens, hatred would most likey be a real alternative on most fights, imo.
I don't think they will nerf Deception... the class was doing fine in 4.0 and is roughly the same as now. By far I found it to be one of the most balanced spec of the game for now ^^
We'll be seeing some touch to operative dps/healer but that's all.

Back to topic, when someone mentionned Hatred on Brontes... you could take it if you've got some good burst dps to help you. Deception is way better for this than hatred because of the Reaper's Rush utility that allow you to kill fingers really quickly for example.
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nyrkverse's Avatar


nyrkverse
07.17.2017 , 06:06 AM | #16
I think that with frontal maul any reason that might have existed (if it did at all) to not pick Deception for Brontes is now truly gone. Especially so when you also factor in how much sturdier Deception is, on top of the better dps potential and burst vs dots.

I mean, I'm sure a very good/exceptional Hatred player is able to make it work everywhere but that type of player would do even better as Deception so other than fun/challenge (perfectly valid reasons, don't get me wrong) why bother?

Devs need to make sure that it pays off to be proficient in both specs, hopefully without crippling one to prop up the other.
«I'm not cute. I'm deadly»

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
07.17.2017 , 06:33 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by nyrkverse View Post
hopefully without crippling one to prop up the other.
This is what scares me I must say... :/ But we'll see, since they have the bad habit of speaking to us after changes has been decided...
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Torvai's Avatar


Torvai
07.17.2017 , 07:06 AM | #18
Don't get me wrong, I don't want a nerf for Deception and don't think it's neccessary. But I also don't think that an Arsenal nerf was neccessary. At least not in regards to dps.
But in Biowares opinion the pecking order looks like melee sustained > melee burst=ranged sustained > ranged burst.
So Deception is supposed to be in the same range as Virulece, Madness, IO and Engi. Which all parse around 10k atm, except for Madness, which is at 9.6k. Deception parses around 10.5k
So either Madness needs another buff or the other 3 specs get nerfed further, but either way deception overperforms, as do all melee burst specs with the exception of Fury.

As I said, I don't want a nerf, but looking at it with that logic(which is flawed, but it is what Bioware uses anyway), it's quite obvious it'll come.

JLazarillo's Avatar


JLazarillo
07.17.2017 , 08:07 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
Just play Hatred everywhere because it's more fun
If only it didn't look so silly.

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
07.17.2017 , 08:16 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Torvai View Post
Don't get me wrong, I don't want a nerf for Deception and don't think it's neccessary. But I also don't think that an Arsenal nerf was neccessary. At least not in regards to dps.
But in Biowares opinion the pecking order looks like melee sustained > melee burst=ranged sustained > ranged burst.
So Deception is supposed to be in the same range as Virulece, Madness, IO and Engi. Which all parse around 10k atm, except for Madness, which is at 9.6k. Deception parses around 10.5k
So either Madness needs another buff or the other 3 specs get nerfed further, but either way deception overperforms, as do all melee burst specs with the exception of Fury.

As I said, I don't want a nerf, but looking at it with that logic(which is flawed, but it is what Bioware uses anyway), it's quite obvious it'll come.
I don't think there will be some nerf to Deception.

Deception is one of the few spec that rely heavily on RNG, because of Surging Charge's way of building up stack. Sure, we have a way to "force" this stack by using Ball Lightning, but in the end it's the same, bad luck with these stats will affect your perfomance, as well as being lucky with the RNG can improve your stats as well.

I'll take an operative for example : He can time his burst every time, because he knows how much he has to wait untill his next volatile substance comes, the same goes for arsenal merc, who knows exactly when his HS missiles will be up, the only RNG mechanics that affects him his critical rate. As Deception, it's a bit tricky, since you can time your next Maul --wich happens usually every 10-15sec-- but you cannot time exactly when your full Discharge will be available (except with Recklessness and Phantom Stride, but these aren't exactly up all the time. ) and furthermore, you have your crit stats that can influence the result of your discharge too (9k Discharge and 18k Discharge aren't exactly the same... Imagine if you're really unlucky and have slow discharge proc and bad crits).

I'll quote one of the devs on their famous "RNG is so exciting !"
Yeah it is if the reward is good and appropriate (here, the reward is Surging Charge's proc)... Basically, my point is that, if maybe Surging Charge's proc was "obligatory" (like, every six second you get a proc with melee attack) then yeah, Deception would be overpowered for its DPS. But since it rely on RNG more than other traditional spec, then I find it normal to have a reward that is "greater" in terms of dps parsing, since you cannot predict exactly when your attack will arrive.
And also, don't forget that in terms of mobility, Deception is a melee dps, your movements aren't really up all the time. On fights like HM Styrak I usually tend to lose some dps because of long distance between adds... Although I think that now with front maul the dps loss won't be as great.

And yeah, I totally agree on the fact that the dps for Arsenal or some other spec didn't need such nerf... But this is not the topic.


Quote: Originally Posted by JLazarillo View Post
If only it didn't look so silly.
"You spin me round..."
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