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Krea's Shadow/Assassin PvP Guide

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Krea's Shadow/Assassin PvP Guide

Jinre_the_Jedi's Avatar


Jinre_the_Jedi
05.11.2015 , 06:33 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Lord_Unterhemd View Post
Pretty good Guide.

I didnt test the 77% Surge Build yet because i like the additional 5% Accuracy for deception because of my low slash.
I tried 0 Accuracy and it drove me nuts when Low Slash missed, because it can occur in many critical situations where a successful CC can decide whether you win or lose a 1v1 situation.

I also wanted to say that your guide gave me a few things to think about and try out, but in my opinion your "rotation" for deception doesnt quite fit in with the core meaning of the whole specc, which is in my opinion, beeing unpredictable. The strongest deception players in my opinion are those, who really are unpredictable. ^^
Of course there are priorities that have to be known, but they aren't rotations^^
And I also wanted to mention that i wouldnt use:

Recklessness -> Spike because it would consume one of your Recklessness charges that could be missing in your Surging charges discharge later while using Bolt Lightning, if i am not wrong :P
Thanks for the feedback Firstly, the opener is the way it is for a couple reasons, the main one being, if you open with anything other than Force Breach/Discharge, you are losing Dps, because Force Breach/Discharge gives a debuff called 'Vulnerable' which increases all Force Based damage to them by 5% for 45 seconds. Secondly, you take the extra Potency charge in utilities for the very purpose of being able to use Spinning Kick/Spike out of stealth with a Potency charge. This is because if you actually check your tooltips, Spinning kick/Spike does MORE damage than Psychokinetic Blast/Ball Lightning does. So it is worth using a charge on because you can potentially open from stealth with both a stun AND a 7-8k Spinning Kick/Spike, which will really startle the enemy.

As far as accuracy, like I stated in the guide, it is purely up to you, the great thing about Infiltration/Deception is its build flexibility. Personally, I ditched the accuracy after having 2 consecutive low slashes miss while I had 96% Melee accuracy. I realized at that point that if RNGesus doesn't want Low Slash to hit, then it simply won't hit

ZooMzy's Avatar


ZooMzy
05.11.2015 , 09:17 PM | #22
Gonna leave my criticisms here:

For starters, the combination of the Stun Damage Reduction and the Deflection Stun Immunity utility points seems to be a "shooting yourself in the foot type of build". Personally, I feel that the overall value in not being stunned is very minimal for a spec like Hatred, considering most of your damage is going to be from DoTspread. The spec is by far the worst single target damage dealing spec in the game, meaning that you're not really going to be stopped much if someone tries to chain stun you repeatedly as long as you get the DoTs off. In fact, it's a benefit not to have it, considering it forces you to be patient with your single target DPS to increase efficiency and at the same time, can be the difference between life or death if burst comps stun lock you during their burst /reduce damage intake from pressure comps if your healer needs some help to recover.

Of course, that's for when Hatred is used for organized team ranked. For solos, this may be different depending on how you handle a team tunneling you.

The Mara class comparisons are also a bit silly: Hatred is pretty easy for a Carnage Marauder to burst. Their Devastating Blast nukes your health bar efficiently through Deflection because Ataru's form activation occurs too often for 50% def chance to effectively nuke, and their weapon burst in Ravage and VT easily gives them options when you activate Force Shroud. Along with the range reductions to Demolish and DF, kiting them is not really a viable option anymore.

Anni's passive damage and utilities in healing and anti kiting talents also grant it a large advantage over Hatred, and Fury's strong passive damage reduction to internal along with the extensive damage types that can burst Hatred hard put Maras as a better class overall against the DoT spec. From a 1v1 perspective, anyway.

Jinre_the_Jedi's Avatar


Jinre_the_Jedi
05.11.2015 , 11:03 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by ZooMzy View Post
Gonna leave my criticisms here:

For starters, the combination of the Stun Damage Reduction and the Deflection Stun Immunity utility points seems to be a "shooting yourself in the foot type of build". Personally, I feel that the overall value in not being stunned is very minimal for a spec like Hatred, considering most of your damage is going to be from DoTspread. The spec is by far the worst single target damage dealing spec in the game, meaning that you're not really going to be stopped much if someone tries to chain stun you repeatedly as long as you get the DoTs off. In fact, it's a benefit not to have it, considering it forces you to be patient with your single target DPS to increase efficiency and at the same time, can be the difference between life or death if burst comps stun lock you during their burst /reduce damage intake from pressure comps if your healer needs some help to recover.

Of course, that's for when Hatred is used for organized team ranked. For solos, this may be different depending on how you handle a team tunneling you.

The Mara class comparisons are also a bit silly: Hatred is pretty easy for a Carnage Marauder to burst. Their Devastating Blast nukes your health bar efficiently through Deflection because Ataru's form activation occurs too often for 50% def chance to effectively nuke, and their weapon burst in Ravage and VT easily gives them options when you activate Force Shroud. Along with the range reductions to Demolish and DF, kiting them is not really a viable option anymore.

Anni's passive damage and utilities in healing and anti kiting talents also grant it a large advantage over Hatred, and Fury's strong passive damage reduction to internal along with the extensive damage types that can burst Hatred hard put Maras as a better class overall against the DoT spec. From a 1v1 perspective, anyway.
Thank you for your viewpoints, I will admit, I have only dueled very few marauders, so my knowledge of this fight is less than optimal. If you had to put it in your own words, what would your recommended rating be for Hatred and Deception vs a marauder? The most common type you will find in ranked seems to be Carnage, as out of 700 games played last season, I can count on 1 hand how many times I've seen an Anni mara in solo ranked

Lord_Unterhemd's Avatar


Lord_Unterhemd
05.12.2015 , 05:32 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Jinre_the_Jedi View Post
Thanks for the feedback Firstly, the opener is the way it is for a couple reasons, the main one being, if you open with anything other than Force Breach/Discharge, you are losing Dps, because Force Breach/Discharge gives a debuff called 'Vulnerable' which increases all Force Based damage to them by 5% for 45 seconds.
Yeah but that isnt the rotation you've written down. You Rotation goes: Recklessness -> Spike -> Discharge -> Ball Lightning
And that is in my opinion not that clever. Sometimes it is, for example if youre trying to stop someone from kiting in the first place, but in 70 to 80% of the time I am using Spike as my second opener after i vanish offensively or defensivly.

The point is, that you are wasting one Recklessness charge if you are opening with Recklessness into Spike and continue afterwards with Discharge and Ball Lightning.
4
Quote: Originally Posted by Jinre_the_Jedi View Post
Secondly, you take the extra Potency charge in utilities for the very purpose of being able to use Spinning Kick/Spike out of stealth with a Potency charge.
You are only able to use Spike out of stealth if you are in Tank specc, but i was only talking about deception

Quote: Originally Posted by Jinre_the_Jedi View Post
This is because if you actually check your tooltips, Spinning kick/Spike does MORE damage than Psychokinetic Blast/Ball Lightning does. ...
And yes, in the tooltip it says that Spike should deal a few points of damage more than ball lightning but i tested it with my ships dummy and in none of my tries, a critical Spike did more damage than a critical Ball Lightning, With level 59 you get a 30% surge boost for your surging charges discharge effect and your ball lighting. Since you will always (because of your Voltage Procc from Voltaic Slash) trigger your surging charge, when using your Ball Lightning it will ALWAYS be more dps than using Spike, especially when you are consuming 2 Recklessness charges with Ball Lightning and the following surging charges discharge effect.

here a little video I made today to show you the difference between Spike and Ball Lightning. I forgot to specc the additional Recklessness Charge but to show the difference, you dont need 3 stacks, since we're talking about the dps between 2 critical hitting abilities

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmWG...ature=youtu.be

So youll get more dps out of: Recklessness -> Discharge -> 2x voltaic Slash -> Ball Lightning -> Maul (if procced)
The biggest nerf in this part is, that you can only be able to maximize your burst, if you manage to apply the amor reduction that is given with Maul. The Problem here is, that the armor reduction is placed with Maul, but doesnt already count for the placing Maul, so it will only count for every Skill that is used AFTER the first Maul on the Target, so your second Burst, always will be the stronger one.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jinre_the_Jedi View Post
As far as accuracy, like I stated in the guide, it is purely up to you, the great thing about Infiltration/Deception is its build flexibility. Personally, I ditched the accuracy after having 2 consecutive low slashes miss while I had 96% Melee accuracy. I realized at that point that if RNGesus doesn't want Low Slash to hit, then it simply won't hit
If you have 95% Accuracy, the only class that is able to dodge your low slash without a deff cd are Sages and Sorcs because of their additional 5% of defensive chance due to their light Armor. Every other class has to use a deff cd to raise their defensive change to be able to force a missing low slash.

But yeah, you are right, it depends on the players if they think it is better with or without accuracy, maybe ill try out maximizing my surge, but in my opinion everything over 75% surge is a big waste of stats.

I hope my english is understandable and it doesnt sound to critical or to negative I just want to show my opinion and exchange experiences
Slevrina / Assassin Diehard

UrbanSaint's Avatar


UrbanSaint
05.12.2015 , 06:38 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Jinre_the_Jedi View Post
Thank you for your viewpoints, I will admit, I have only dueled very few marauders, so my knowledge of this fight is less than optimal. If you had to put it in your own words, what would your recommended rating be for Hatred and Deception vs a marauder? The most common type you will find in ranked seems to be Carnage, as out of 700 games played last season, I can count on 1 hand how many times I've seen an Anni mara in solo ranked
I find 1v1'ing sents/maras sucess or failure rate to be determined more or less by two crucial things (assuming all other things like skill, gear level, and crit RNG being equal); and that is 1) "did i resiliance their hardest htting ability?" and 2) "did the sent/mara use Pacify/Obsfucate at a good time?". For example purposes im going to assume that every sent/mara is going to be in combat/carnage spec, so for point #1, their hardest hitting ability is clashing blast/devastating blast. If you can time the resiliance on that, then you effectively shut down half of their burst and it should be fairly easy to to kill them afterward. if you dont resiliance it, you are most likely just going to get shredded. Point #2 affects Deception moreso than Hatred imo, because a missed Low Slash and/or Maul is a good chunk of your burst/crowd control. of course as Hatred a missed Assasinate proc is pretty huge, but it's still fairly easy to just kite/LoS them and wither them down via DoTs.
Fresnel-Jedi Shadow (all 3 specs)
Waythiko-Jedi Sentinel (Watchman, Combat)
And a bunch of other random alts I never play (I'm an Alt-o-holic)
Ex-best clicker and keyboard turner on the server

Jinre_the_Jedi's Avatar


Jinre_the_Jedi
05.12.2015 , 08:38 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Lord_Unterhemd View Post
Yeah but that isnt the rotation you've written down. You Rotation goes: Recklessness -> Spike -> Discharge -> Ball Lightning
And that is in my opinion not that clever. Sometimes it is, for example if youre trying to stop someone from kiting in the first place, but in 70 to 80% of the time I am using Spike as my second opener after i vanish offensively or defensivly.

The point is, that you are wasting one Recklessness charge if you are opening with Recklessness into Spike and continue afterwards with Discharge and Ball Lightning.
4


You are only able to use Spike out of stealth if you are in Tank specc, but i was only talking about deception



And yes, in the tooltip it says that Spike should deal a few points of damage more than ball lightning but i tested it with my ships dummy and in none of my tries, a critical Spike did more damage than a critical Ball Lightning, With level 59 you get a 30% surge boost for your surging charges discharge effect and your ball lighting. Since you will always (because of your Voltage Procc from Voltaic Slash) trigger your surging charge, when using your Ball Lightning it will ALWAYS be more dps than using Spike, especially when you are consuming 2 Recklessness charges with Ball Lightning and the following surging charges discharge effect.

here a little video I made today to show you the difference between Spike and Ball Lightning. I forgot to specc the additional Recklessness Charge but to show the difference, you dont need 3 stacks, since we're talking about the dps between 2 critical hitting abilities

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmWG...ature=youtu.be

So youll get more dps out of: Recklessness -> Discharge -> 2x voltaic Slash -> Ball Lightning -> Maul (if procced)
The biggest nerf in this part is, that you can only be able to maximize your burst, if you manage to apply the amor reduction that is given with Maul. The Problem here is, that the armor reduction is placed with Maul, but doesnt already count for the placing Maul, so it will only count for every Skill that is used AFTER the first Maul on the Target, so your second Burst, always will be the stronger one.



If you have 95% Accuracy, the only class that is able to dodge your low slash without a deff cd are Sages and Sorcs because of their additional 5% of defensive chance due to their light Armor. Every other class has to use a deff cd to raise their defensive change to be able to force a missing low slash.

But yeah, you are right, it depends on the players if they think it is better with or without accuracy, maybe ill try out maximizing my surge, but in my opinion everything over 75% surge is a big waste of stats.

I hope my english is understandable and it doesnt sound to critical or to negative I just want to show my opinion and exchange experiences
First, let me clarify, when I said taking an extra Potency charge allows you to use Spike out of stealth, what I meant was, it allows you to open with a crit on a CC ability COMING out of stealth. Not that you can use Spike when you are not in stealth mode, so I apologize, I didn't word that properly and caused confusion. I will reword this in the guide. Now that that's cleared up:

As far as whether to use a Recklessness Charge on Spike, pre 3.0 I would NEVER advise this, however, since it's damage increase going into 3.0, it is now a viable ability to use a charge on. When I play Infiltration/Deception, I play with the mindset of doing the most damage in the smallest amount of Global Cool Downs as possible, as this is the point of playing a burst spec as opposed to a sustain spec in PvP. That is why I take the extra Potency charge, it is a direct Dps increase over any other utility in that tier with the exception Nerve Wracking, potentially, but even then, that utility is only a situational Dps increase and is more suited for tanks. With that being said, if I have 3 Recklessness charges and want to do the most burst possible in a short window of time, I will want to use one on Spike, because if I wait 6 seconds to use it on a second Ball Lightning, I am adding 4 additional GCDs to get out all of my burst. However, I will definitely agree, you could open up with Discharge from stealth instead, and if it crits for the maximum amount, you can deal a 10-11k hit coming from stealth, which is powerful. I will amend that part of the guide, to show that you can also open with Discharge instead of Spike

As far as accuracy goes, I think you're looking at this incorrectly. Adding 5% Accuracy does NOT give Low Slash a 100% success rate on players that aren't Consular/Inquisitors. It gives a 90% chance to hit as opposed to a 85% chance to hit. This is because you have a base accuracy of 90%. Your opponent (non-consular/inquisitor) has 5% base defense chance. Even if you add 5% to take away this defence chance by adding accuracy, you still have a 10% chance to miss. This is because accuracy works this way:

Your Accuracy (90%) - Opponents Defence Chance (5%) = Total chance to hit (85%).

Adding 5% accuracy to have a total of 95% personal accuracy simply means that you have only made your chance to hit 90% instead of 85%. You can test this yourself, by adding 5% accuracy and low slashing a player. You will notice that it still has a chance to miss, even if they have no DCD's popped. This is because in order to have a 0% chance to miss, you would have to have 105% Melee accuracy, which is VERY impractical in a PvP situation. I can post a video of this later today, showing a 95% accuracy build on a non-inquisitor/consular missing, despite my accuracy negating their defence chance.

I found your post very informative and will go ahead and amend parts of the guide based on it, I thank you for your help!

Edit: I forgot to mention, about your maximum dps rotation: That rotation is perfect for a PvE environment, but in PvP, realistically, that is way too many GCDs to try to get off maximum dps. You want the most damage in as little GCDs as possible. Your rotation has 5 GCDs and that's only using up 2 out of 3 Recklessness charges, which would take an additonal 4 GCDs to use on another Ball Lightning. That is far too long. I can say from experience, after your first 2-3 GCDs, your opponent will use a Defensive Cool Down which will lower the burst of any GCDs applied after it, this is why you want the most burst possible in the first 3 GCDs as opposed to 5 or 9 GCDs.

Lord_Unterhemd's Avatar


Lord_Unterhemd
05.12.2015 , 08:56 AM | #27
It is true that you dont have 100% hit Chance with 95% Accuracy, I had a hard time trying to explain what I meant^^

I just preferred 95% to close the missing window a bit further and for me it just works fine
So, on a really abstract level, I wanted to say that i prefer missing one possible low slash instead of two, if you know what i mean.

And as I said, I prefer having Spike as a Stunlock ability for a second Burst, I often Open with Discharge into 1 Voltaic Slash, into Maul and then the second Voltaic into Ball Lightning.

The Deception Burst overall aint by far as strong as it was in 2.10, because of the missing duplicity Procc on Low Slash and Spike. In my Opinion, knowing that, your priority as a deception sin should be trying to stunlock your enemy and Burst him down in the few locking windows.

Of course it depends on the Level of enemy you are encountering, if he isnt that experienced or skilled, you can easily burst straight through them, without much effort, but if they are skilled, you WILL have to play cat and mouse in order to kill your oponnent and burst at the right times and kite him at the right times.

Knowing what your Deffs are, what the enemy deffs are and which ones have already been used by yourself and your enemy is essential for beeing good at deception.

A maximized opening bust isnt always the best solution in Winning a Duel or killing one of the 4 enemies in the Arena

But I like your Guide and I find it very interesting to see another point of view on the speccs and the playstyles
Slevrina / Assassin Diehard

Aelanis's Avatar


Aelanis
05.12.2015 , 09:05 AM | #28
I would like to add to this discussion on opening with Spike vs. not doing so that if you don't, you risk, instead of a second Ball Lightning, a Twin Surge consuming a stack of Recklessness, which is definitely less damage than Spike. With respect to maximum burst, though, I think there's some merit to a single Voltaic Slash, just to trigger an auto-crit Maul. I made a probability of kill (PK) simulation, designed to examine your average chance of killing a target in X moves, counting critical chance and even damage rolls, averaged over 10,000 simulated fights. It doesn't integrate cooldowns or external healing, but those variables are too uncontrollable to reasonably simulate. I didn't include an opening Spike at first, nor did I look at using Maul without an auto-crit,. However, I can guarantee you that your average damage using the auto-crit maul is far, far higher, and thus your PK shoots up dramatically, even if it does take one extra global. Obviously, if you can sneak in a VS before you have your burst window, that's a much better option, but if you have to freshly open on someone, there's some merit in using that VS.

As far as accuracy goes, remember: only your basic attack (Saber Strike) has 90% base accuracy. Every single other melee move you has uses a Special Melee Attack accuracy, which happens to be equal to your Force accuracy, with a base of 100%. So yes, against non-Inquisitors, a 95% melee accuracy means your Low Slash will have 105% accuracy, which will cancel out their 5% base M/R defense chance. Throw a tank into the mix, though, and suddenly you have a 5% accuracy debuff, which gives it the chance to miss again, not to mention the fact that Consulars/Inquisitors still have their higher base Defense chance.
Dulfy Guides: Hatred, Serenity, Darkness, Kinetic Combat
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Lord_Unterhemd's Avatar


Lord_Unterhemd
05.12.2015 , 09:52 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Aelanis View Post
As far as accuracy goes, remember: only your basic attack (Saber Strike) has 90% base accuracy. Every single other melee move you has uses a Special Melee Attack accuracy, which happens to be equal to your Force accuracy, with a base of 100%. So yes, against non-Inquisitors, a 95% melee accuracy means your Low Slash will have 105% accuracy, which will cancel out their 5% base M/R defense chance. Throw a tank into the mix, though, and suddenly you have a 5% accuracy debuff, which gives it the chance to miss again, not to mention the fact that Consulars/Inquisitors still have their higher base Defense chance.
That is something I wasn't sure of. I heard it before that special attacks are using the same accuracy value as Tech/Force Attacks.

Checked for it now and you are right. I looked at the accuracy tooltip, that I will post here:
http://www11.pic-upload.de/12.05.15/9duuqp124za.jpg

And it says 105% for Special Attacks. But Special Attacks are every Action/Attack that consume your ressource?
Slevrina / Assassin Diehard

Jinre_the_Jedi's Avatar


Jinre_the_Jedi
05.12.2015 , 10:00 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Lord_Unterhemd View Post
It is true that you dont have 100% hit Chance with 95% Accuracy, I had a hard time trying to explain what I meant^^

I just preferred 95% to close the missing window a bit further and for me it just works fine
So, on a really abstract level, I wanted to say that i prefer missing one possible low slash instead of two, if you know what i mean.

And as I said, I prefer having Spike as a Stunlock ability for a second Burst, I often Open with Discharge into 1 Voltaic Slash, into Maul and then the second Voltaic into Ball Lightning.

The Deception Burst overall aint by far as strong as it was in 2.10, because of the missing duplicity Procc on Low Slash and Spike. In my Opinion, knowing that, your priority as a deception sin should be trying to stunlock your enemy and Burst him down in the few locking windows.

Of course it depends on the Level of enemy you are encountering, if he isnt that experienced or skilled, you can easily burst straight through them, without much effort, but if they are skilled, you WILL have to play cat and mouse in order to kill your oponnent and burst at the right times and kite him at the right times.

Knowing what your Deffs are, what the enemy deffs are and which ones have already been used by yourself and your enemy is essential for beeing good at deception.

A maximized opening bust isnt always the best solution in Winning a Duel or killing one of the 4 enemies in the Arena

But I like your Guide and I find it very interesting to see another point of view on the speccs and the playstyles
I'm glad you're enjoying the guide, the more feedback I can get from the Shadow/Sin community, the better the guide will be, as I would like this guide to be more of a collective effort than just my own thoughts and experiences

As far as your comment on spike goes, it's only a 20 second cool down, and even if you were to use Force Cloak to reset Recklessness, chances are, spike will be up again for another Recklessness window, so there's really no reason to not use spike on your initial opener due to the low cool down. I also found that it helps a lot in Ranked Warzone scenarios where you are on a map with a 2nd tier and you are on tier 2. You can open with Spike for a 2 second stun and then reposition yourself around the enemy to knock them off the Bridge of Makeb, or Catwalk of Orbital station, etc.

Which reminds me, I should update the maps section with that tip