With all your technical expertise, could you kindly explain exactly how lagswitch effects other players then the person stupid enough to cause himself lag, in this mmo setting.

I would love to... Have a look at my previous posts... You will find explanations there

I would love to... Have a look at my previous posts... You will find explanations there

I would love to... Have a look at my previous posts... You will find explanations there

I doubt that, he might find the wall of texts that I wrote last time you went on a hacking QQ thread, the wall of texts explaining exactly why a lag switch wouldn't do **** in a game where combat is done serverside.

While lag switching might not have any effect on combat processes directly, it still allows someone to warp around or "teleport", which in turn will prevent people activating abilities on that person for the duration. Just the fact that when you lag out the client lets you run about 30m away from your original position until you hit an invisible brick wall, and on reestablishing a connection it does not roll you back to your original position, just updates the server with your new location. I have been seriously p1$$3d off in certain absolutely lag-less Huttball games late at night where I have dropped a PT in fire, stunned them, waited for the cc break to drop the second stun, but then they just reappear a second or two later at the line (5-10m away) with the ball. This is obvious lag switch use.

I really would like to see your reliable source of information on the client to server setup for SWTOR, I'm sorry, but it's just difficult to take one guy's word for it (I am not attacking you, before you go on the defensive, I would just genuinely like to see proof that lag switches physically can not effect SWTOR in any way).

I agree the use of actual hacks is limited, but still, how sure can we actually be about what is being used out there. As I mentioned before, in other games hackers make a living off selling these applications and only sell them to a limited and trusted audience, so they wouldn't be available to the public. I have seen some weird stuff with a certain shadow on TOFN, such as what looked like 3-4 hits being spammed in a second (like some kind of GCD hack), and from what I have heard the Russian forums were full of posts about this certain player, accusing him of using some kind of hack.

While lag switching might not have any effect on combat processes directly, it still allows someone to warp around or "teleport", which in turn will prevent people activating abilities on that person for the duration. Just the fact that when you lag out the client lets you run about 30m away from your original position until you hit an invisible brick wall, and on reestablishing a connection it does not roll you back to your original position, just updates the server with your new location. I have been seriously p1$$3d off in certain absolutely lag-less Huttball games late at night where I have dropped a PT in fire, stunned them, waited for the cc break to drop the second stun, but then they just reappear a second or two later at the line (5-10m away) with the ball. This is obvious lag switch use.

 

I really would like to see your reliable source of information on the client to server setup for SWTOR, I'm sorry, but it's just difficult to take one guy's word for it (I am not attacking you, before you go on the defensive, I would just genuinely like to see proof that lag switches physically can not effect SWTOR in any way).

 

I agree the use of actual hacks is limited, but still, how sure can we actually be about what is being used out there. As I mentioned before, in other games hackers make a living off selling these applications and only sell them to a limited and trusted audience, so they wouldn't be available to the public. I have seen some weird stuff with a certain shadow on TOFN, such as what looked like 3-4 hits being spammed in a second (like some kind of GCD hack), and from what I have heard the Russian forums were full of posts about this certain player, accusing him of using some kind of hack.

Its not a lag switch lol. You lost packets to the server, the other player didnt. On his screen you didnt stun him or anything and the system froze for you but didnt for him. It happens both ways look at the warrior leap bug. Say i leap to the player on my screen but he rooted me before i leapt if he has a better connection it will set me back because the server relays.

Its like on call of duty (without a lag switch) where you shoot someone first but they get the kill. On your screen you reacted faster but due to lag he reacted before you and it lagged back for you even though you unloaded a few rounds on him first.

Its called rubber-banding. Its a big issue with this game. All you idiots have way to much faith in BW to blame other players instead of the worst system to operate any game. Thats why every once in a long while you get accused of hacking even though you werent and were just accusing someone else. You may have fast net and a good computer but the other player may be closer to the actual server than you. Kinda common sense.

Honest question knowing that you are an average (being generous) and there are lots of better players than you. How can you automatically assume that other people that beat you are hacking? I assume you dont do ranked. Does every ranked player cheat? Is rating just an identifier for cheaters?

There is so much more lag in this game than could ever be considered acceptable. Yet you immediately assume that just anyone can walk through the cluster **** of programming BW calls a game.

Here is a long list of reasons things happen:

Lag from your graphics card

Ignorance of enemy classes

Lag from your internet

Lack of skill to cope

Lag from the server

Lag from bitraider

Lag from brain

Lag from fingers

Lag from rubberbanding

Lag from overpopulation of server

Lag from DOT spread overloading the UI

Lag from the large amount of AOEs that overload your graphics.

Lots of reasons "cheats" happen but its BW not other players which 98% of them dont have access or hardware to "hack" a locked server.

Think about things instead of getting all emotional.

so there is this awesome thread of in the GD, and while I don't agree with some of the conclusions that the OP of that thread drew this section stood out.

First of all, why is TCP bad for latency-sensitive objects?

 

TCP is a connection protocol that makes 3 guarantees:

1. That all packets sent will arrive.

2. That packets will arrive in the order they were sent.

3. That all packets will be error-free.

 

That sounds great! Making sure everything you send always arrives, and in the right order makes things easy! Not so fast, the problem is what must be done to achieve this: any packets that are lost in transit must be re-sent. Compounding this, you can't use any of the newer packets coming in until the lost one is resent because everything must stay in order. For some systems, this is perfectly fine. (chat, inventory, group invites, ect) However, this is VERY bad for latency sensitive data such as the position of objects in the world.

 

So how do you fix this? Use UDP for latency sensitive data. UDP doesn't guarantee anything, it just sends data blindly. On a stable connection, the VAST majority of these packets will arrive intact. But what happens if you have packet loss? As it turns out, asking the server to re-send position data isn't worth it. By the time the server could re-send the missing data it's already out of date and no longer matters! So you just skip the missing update and continue to use the newer data as it comes in. The gaps can be filled in by interpolating between the positions in the packets that arrived just before and after the one that was lost. It's not perfect, but it's a lot better than re-sending the old data.

 

The main benefit of this change would be a general reduction in the amount of lag with the positions of objects. Especially on connections with some packet loss.

 

SWTOR uses TCP, most FPS games (which are fairly vulnerable to lag-switches) use UDP. TCP simply won't allow lag switches because it will simply demand the client resend the dropped packets. Now TCP is also (partially)responsible for all the rubberbanding and crap we get in warzones, but hey at least we all suffer the same.

EDIT: Here is a better explanation

That said, the OP does overstate the UDP/TCP issue a bit. If you're making a fast-paced FPS where precision is valued over all else and the amount of server-state updates is small (FPSs have much less map data to send to clients), then UDP is the obvious choice. MMOs are different, and TCP brings out some very specific advantages, the very first of which is a built-in improvement in security. Developing hacks in a UDP-based game is much easier than with TCP (at least it should be). Detecting client disconnects is another.

 

There certainly are concerns about synchronicity and how the protocol degrades with lower quality connections. However, saying that everything would be better simply by moving to UDP isn't really true. The game would most likely handle crowded areas much better, but we'd see problems in other areas. There are reasons why WoW and GW2 use TCP.

I can say that lag hacks are definately real, I never ever get lag in operations, flashpoints, GSF or doing dailies but for some reason when I am doing well in pvp I lag out and get dc'd many times.

 

My ISP you say, well I am on fibreoptic and this is what I get to the servers from Perth Australia http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/3791764032.

I have to agree. I have 3 times the ISP and they report no drops in service or speed in the last 3 months. I even had them come out and replace all the lines including the one that runs underground across the street. I have a top of the line machine to play on and top of the line internet however I have these same problems every night. I am more convinced that there is something wrong with Bio and this game then some hackers. I have played GW2, WildStar and a few other titles in the last 6 months and I have not had a similar issue with any game except SWTOR. The issue seems to have gotten worse since the last major patch. I see from other posts in 2012 that similar issues where happening after a major update. Again I don't thing anyone is really hacking or cheating to win but something is going on for sure. Im not ruling out hackers but I a convinced this game is having some sort of issue. I play with 2 good friends every night who have half the machine and internet then I do and they rarely have these issues.

I have to agree. I have 3 times the ISP and they report no drops in service or speed in the last 3 months. I even had them come out and replace all the lines including the one that runs underground across the street. I have a top of the line machine to play on and top of the line internet however I have these same problems every night. I am more convinced that there is something wrong with Bio and this game then some hackers. I have played GW2, WildStar and a few other titles in the last 6 months and I have not had a similar issue with any game except SWTOR. The issue seems to have gotten worse since the last major patch. I see from other posts in 2012 that similar issues where happening after a major update. Again I don't thing anyone is really hacking or cheating to win but something is going on for sure. Im not ruling out hackers but I a convinced this game is having some sort of issue. I play with 2 good friends every night who have half the machine and internet then I do and they rarely have these issues.

EDIT: Oh bloody hell i meant to quote the guy above who explained the TCP and lagswitch in technical terms, but your post was good aswell xD

^thanks

I am still very convinced its not hacks its an issue with the game and Bio. I would like to see collected data on time of day and which servers are impacted. Seems crazy to me that some have no experience with these issues and others it happens to every night.

Okay so answer these questions:

- When a lag switch user presses the button, moves about while lagged out, what happens when they let go of the button? Do they get teleported back to where they lagged out or does the server move them to the final position they ended up at on the client? I have personally never been rolled back when I've experienced a genuine lag spike (but I did hit an invisible wall about 30m away which I was free to roam around inside).

- If one player is focusing a lag switch user hard, then they press the button, what happens on the player's screen who was attacking said lag switcher? Do they keep piling damage on them unhindered while the lag switches is defenceless and once they come back in they are dead?

You say what I've been seeing is genuine lag, so if genuine lag affects the game in this way, how come articial lag doesn't?

Check dis.

So how different is the way WoW servers and clients communicate compared to SWTOR?

You say I lagged out every time I saw this happen in huttball, how convenient.

You notice the lag when they are scoring because that stands out in your brain. Human brains only see what they want to see. You never notice the guy lagging out on the offnode, and you never notice the when people you aren't actively attacking are lagging out.

Confirmation bias.

Yeah, I notice it when it's highly convenient.

You are denying it completely without:

a) answering either of the scenarios I put forward

b) challenging the evidence I've shown that it does have an effect in a similar MMO

Confirmation bias what? All you've done is deny it without explaining why, only the what... I'm still waiting for a reason why it's not possible in SWTOR, all you guys have done is thrown copied and pasted jargon as your reasoning.

Look let me me ask this question:

"Do lag switches have any effect in SWTOR?"

Now please answer this question as though I'm anonymous and explain why (for dummies). Just explain exactly what will happen between the server and client when someone cuts their outbound data for a few seconds and continues to move around until their connection is stable again.

Look let me me ask this question:

 

"Do lag switches have any effect in SWTOR?"

 

Now please answer this question as though I'm anonymous and explain why (for dummies). Just explain exactly what will happen between the server and client when someone cuts their outbound data for a few seconds and continues to move around until their connection is stable again.

TCP which swtor runs on has certain rules. Namely all packets must be in order and all packets must arrive uncorrupted. If you interrupt your outbound packets, then server will demand the client resend the missing packets and since all packets must be in order it will ignore your later packets until it gets the missing ones.

Or basically if you lag out, the server won't do anything until it finds out what you where doing while lagging.

There are also some other things such the fact that the client has some safeguards built into it, anyone who has experience heavy lag should be familiar with the invisible walls that occur, as the client simply won't let you wander more than a few meters without data from the server.

Okay, and on lagging out and moving about within the safeguards of the client, on reestablishing connection you will be brought back in at the new location or will be rubber banded back to where you lagged out?

AKA you are able to "teleport" due to lag or not?

It's quite weird that since about 2 hours ago I am now getting 700ms constantly in-game, but when I ping any other server with CMD I get 19-25. I ask others and they're not getting any lag.

Okay, and on lagging out and moving about within the safeguards of the client, on reestablishing connection you will be brought back in at the new location or will be rubber banded back to where you lagged out?

 

AKA you are able to "teleport" due to lag or not?

Well the thruth is, it can be either depending on factors that to my knowledge nobody who isn't a bioware employee knows. I can anecdotally attest to being rubberbanded back and I can also anecdotally attest to teleporting forward. From what I can gather the server makes the choice biased on some unknown ruleset as to which one to pursue.

But remember the server holds all the cards as far as combat is concerned. If your output is interrupted, then in the interim time between establishing reconnection you are for as far as the server is concerned sitting helpless. Even if the server decides to teleport forward, that does you little good if you died in the meantime.

If you really want to go in depth I would recommend PM'ing Malastare as he has dug far more into how swtor runs server side than I have or care to do.

It's quite weird that since about 2 hours ago I am now getting 700ms constantly in-game, but when I ping any other server with CMD I get 19-25. I ask others and they're not getting any lag.

If nobody else is experiencing it then its probably either on you, or its a interruption somewhere between you and the server.

You are not directly connected to the servers, you signal is bounced all through the internets before it reaches its destination, a interruption anywhere along the line could cause problems.

Okay so answer these questions:

 

- When a lag switch user presses the button, moves about while lagged out, what happens when they let go of the button? Do they get teleported back to where they lagged out or does the server move them to the final position they ended up at on the client? I have personally never been rolled back when I've experienced a genuine lag spike (but I did hit an invisible wall about 30m away which I was free to roam around inside).

 

- If one player is focusing a lag switch user hard, then they press the button, what happens on the player's screen who was attacking said lag switcher? Do they keep piling damage on them unhindered while the lag switches is defenceless and once they come back in they are dead?

 

You say what I've been seeing is genuine lag, so if genuine lag affects the game in this way, how come articial lag doesn't?

 

Check dis.

 

 

So how different is the way WoW servers and clients communicate compared to SWTOR?

 

You say I lagged out every time I saw this happen in huttball, how convenient.

Lag switching basically works like this...

The connection to your network is interrupted

The interrupt is the out going packets, not the in going... So your client still receives any in coming data... But your out going seems to lag

This allows the cheater to make moves uninterrupted... Ie escaping, repositioning, hitting their target, scoring, capping

Now if done right the server then updates what they did in relation to the other player... There is a high percentage that it decides in favour of the lagger... But as Zoom said it can go the other way...as far as the server knows the client lagged

Of course it does take a bit of skill to do it right so that it comes out in the cheaters favour... There is also the problem that there is also unacceptable natural lag sometimes... So it can be difficult to know if it is real lag or switching... This is why Bio have such difficulty in policing it (I believe wow introduced some artificial lag in their cross servers to make it easier to detect people using switches)

When the same players/guilds use a switch constantly, match after match and you play them on a daily basis or regulary... It starts to stand out... Especially when it seems to only happen at the most opportune time

What does the non cheater see?... Teleporting, repositioning too fast, speed run effect, unkillable, massive damage spikes to them, cappers uninterruptible, scoring... Etc... Sometimes this may seem like you are lagging... But you are not... It is the cheater... Why does it seem like it's you?... Because the screen jerks a bit with the server trying to compensate

Anyway I am hoping this settles the question... I won't keep debating this...

Ps... I know someone who made a switch to "test" what happens... He used it in Outlaws den and not in WZs to see what the effect was... It worked as described... He then stopped using it... FYI... He was a denier too... He didn't believe it was possible...

Cheating is the lowest form of game play and even worse in pvp... If you can't win ledgitmately against non AI opponents you should find a solo AI game to play... players who cheat shouldn't even get a warning... They should just be permanently banhammered

Well the thruth is, it can be either depending on factors that to my knowledge nobody who isn't a bioware employee knows. I can anecdotally attest to being rubberbanded back and I can also anecdotally attest to teleporting forward. From what I can gather the server makes the choice biased on some unknown ruleset as to which one to pursue.

 

But remember the server holds all the cards as far as combat is concerned. If your output is interrupted, then in the interim time between establishing reconnection you are for as far as the server is concerned sitting helpless. Even if the server decides to teleport forward, that does you little good if you died in the meantime.

 

If you really want to go in depth I would recommend PM'ing Malastare as he has dug far more into how swtor runs server side than I have or care to do.

 

 

If nobody else is experiencing it then its probably either on you, or its a interruption somewhere between you and the server.

You are not directly connected to the servers, you signal is bounced all through the internets before it reaches its destination, a interruption anywhere along the line could cause problems.

This is also true... I have been in matches where the server spikes to 10k lag... I don't realise it's spiked so keep running with the Hutt ball and score... then realise that everyone isn't moving... I expect to DC.,. But don't... Then the server spike goes and I have scored... I was accused of hacking because I rubberbanded to the line

This was happening about 6 weeks before the expansion and went on for a week... 90% of the time I DCd... I even stopped playing for a bit because of it... Lots of people were effected... While others weren't... I was able to trace route it back to a router in LA that was having packet loss and lag spikes... So you can see that the server can be fickle when deciding what is lag and packet loss...

Speed hacker recorded on a twich stream... 5 hours ago...

Here's the thread that has the link

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8011808#post8011808

FYI... Go to the end of the Twitch stream... 2 hours 39 mins to see it.. Long time to watch otherwise.. LoL

You do realize guardians have a utility talent that gives +50% movement speed during Enure right?

EDIT: Twente? Wasn't there a marauder of the same name that was banned several months back for using a speedhack? Rofl, you found the one speedhacker in the game, now tell me where are the two dozen other speedhackers you supposedly see every day?

speedhacks are extremely rare but known.

You do realize guardians have a utility talent that gives +50% movement speed during Enure right?

 

EDIT: Twente? Wasn't there a marauder of the same name that was banned several months back for using a speedhack? Rofl, you found the one speedhacker in the game, now tell me where are the two dozen other speedhackers you supposedly see every day?

 

speedhacks are extremely rare but known.

Yes I know about guardian enure... I have one... But that was much faster... Even with Mara boost at the same time...

Also never, ever stated I see speed hackers every day... I rarely see speed hackers using it that badly...

All I was doing was pointing out that someone saw one yesterday and had proof as you are always asking for it...

You do realize guardians have a utility talent that gives +50% movement speed during Enure right?

Wow.

You genuinely think the rest of us are balls-to-the-wall stupid, don't you?

SMDH...

Yeah, I notice it when it's highly convenient.

 

You are denying it completely without:

 

a) answering either of the scenarios I put forward

 

b) challenging the evidence I've shown that it does have an effect in a similar MMO

 

Confirmation bias what? All you've done is deny it without explaining why, only the what... I'm still waiting for a reason why it's not possible in SWTOR, all you guys have done is thrown copied and pasted jargon as your reasoning.

Umm should the LS user hold that button down when he lets go he will already be dead. He essentially stopped sending packets while the other did not lose any. The game will take the packets givin on time and in succession before rebounding back to recover. Honestly in your scenario did you expect the LS user to jump the server back everytime they use it? It would be smooth for one player and everyone else skips back and forth constantly based on his control? What LS user gains control? No no and noone.

Umm should the LS user hold that button down when he lets go he will already be dead. He essentially stopped sending packets while the other did not lose any. The game will take the packets givin on time and in succession before rebounding back to recover. Honestly in your scenario did you expect the LS user to jump the server back everytime they use it? It would be smooth for one player and everyone else skips back and forth constantly based on his control? What LS user gains control? No no and noone.

LoL... Learn what a lag switch is... Read my explanation if your not sure... It explains it as clear as I can without violating the forum rules