The large and important player constituency that I represent disagrees with the small and more or less irrelevant constituency that you claim to represent.

 

Your taliking about how elitist our attitude are, yet you poudly proclaim that only the constituency that you represent is relevant. It's kind of like Democratic Oppression.

 

Hypocrite.

As i said in an earlier post. It's ONE aspect that is also a fun one. It's the meta game of getting the best min-max outfit, finding new combinations when they release new trinkets and gear.

And it's an additional thing to work towards that lots of people enjoy.

 

 

YOUR oppinion is that it's "what's wrong" with mmorpgs. Others beleive it's a fun addition, one that you causuals have been trying to deny us all this time.

 

You guys have been crying your eyes out over the 5% stat disparity that BM gear offers over Champion gear.

 

YOU want to limit MY fun and my sense of progression.

 

Nah, actually I haven't. I've been saying all along that the gear difference between BM and a fresh 50 isn't impossible, and that from "full BM" to Champion/Centurion is kind of a joke, especially Champ. BM is a sidegrade/downgrade for some people.

 

My point is, if it's a big deal to some people, who cares, let's get rid of it. Your sense of progression is WINNING, whether by yourself or with your friends. When you're winning 100% of your games, then you can say you can't progress anymore. While you win, you get different gear. Sure, its stats may not be better, but at least you earned something different...what's the big deal? By the time you're a perfect player that has "progressed" all the way and never loses, I'm sure there will be new content in the game, new armor, and new things for you to make your character grow with.

 

Even better, maybe they'll add substance to the game on TOP of gear, like a sandbox element. Maybe these changes to economics will give TOR a healthy crafting sector. Who knows?

 

The stat values have traditionally just inflated in these games due to the PVE sector - their gear typically gets bigger stats, because the PVE Dev's idea of difficulty is usually adding more HP to bosses, and quicker enrage timers, and making you learn to tango instead of waltz.

 

Nobody said you can't min-max, and look for the best combination of gear, both stat-wise, and cosmetic wise - let's face it, they'll NEVER get rid of stats - but PVP should be "relatively" even, even in this kind of game. There are enough x-factors like connection speed, PC, peripherals, etc. without letting people become significantly better as a function of time-played.

 

My eyes are dry as a bone.

OP, I see you responding to every other post in this thread. I don't mean to be rude, but when you get the chance, could you please address mine as well? I am actually interested in hearing your views on the two questions I put forward.

Fine lets halt ALL gear progression from now on. Only cosmetic mods in PvP and PvE from here on until they pull the plug.

 

EVERYONE can man up and join the ranked warzone and compete for the best stuff. It's not like there is anything stopping you. But no that would take actually effort and skill on your part.

 

There are many PvP games out there, even multiplayer RPGs, that have no persistent gear progression. Dota is one example.

 

And these games have far better PvP than TOR. It would be great if TOR were to move towards the model these superior games followed.

There are like 3 threads crying about this already.

 

Gear crutches in PvP are stupid, everyone should be relatively equal.

 

Catering to a small elitist (ELITIST NOT ELITE) group of people with massive amounts of time on their hands, who want to stomp so called 'casuals' with no skill required (because for some reason putting so much time should entitle them to) will NOT make a sustainable MMO. The people that play casually, i.e. have a life outside of MMOs, are what make up the subscriptions and keep the game profitable. Making 'hardcore' players gods of pvp will just drive everyone else away.

 

 

Gear rewards are not a crutch, they're a reward; good players will always beat bad players regardless of gear. ONLY close skill levels will notice gear making a difference.

 

Poor players will claim it's the gear, but it's RARELY the gear.

 

And everyone is NOT relatively equal anyhow. If you want relatively equal play chess.

Hardcore doesn't mean you're good. Hardcore means you don't have anything else going on in your life and can spend 15 hours a day at your keyboard.

 

Hardcore means you have little of value in your life aside from the character you created. The game is the one place where you can have something that no one else does. It is the one place where others look up to you, and envy you for what you have.

 

And when the devs open it up and allow everyone to have what the hardcores have, they don't feel like unique snowflakes anymore. They are right back to being average, just like they are in the real world.

 

They never seem to learn that in these games, it's not about what you have, it's about making the most of what you got.

 

Interesting definition you got there kid. I would equate Hardcore to mean more passionate about something.

 

Would you put the same stigma on say a proffessional athlete? Or someone who really like cars?

Edited March 6, 2012 by Notannos
rude

When the competetive elements of this game wants gear progression and character advancement it's because "we want to be carried by gear".

Whereas causals feel they should have a clear progression path all the way up to the best gear for little to no effort.

 

 

Why can't us hardcore players have something to work for that actually takes effort and teamplay to get? I want to feel i earned the gear, not getting it handed to me by merely participating in PvP.

 

Sure competition is it's own reward, which btw is why i'm still racking up lots of games daily even though there is no tangible reward in it for me except more titles. But just as the causals want gear progressions, so do we. Even if the gap is a small one like champ to bm gear, it's still nice to have stuff to look forward too.

 

Ranked players will spend most of their time in ranked warzones so it's not like we will spend all out time ganking you in non ranked.

 

 

 

Ill say this. If you want "gear progression", then you need to find another MMO. BW is doing what blizzard should have done and thats cater to casuals. I like that ANYONE can get the best gear and still have fun.

The hardcore PvP gear progression will be the new ranked WZ battlemaster. It won't be any better than normal battlemaster, but it'll have a unique color/graphics. This is the way it should be. There is something for 'hardcore' PvPers to aspire to and show off without giving them an unfair competitive advantage through gear.

Ill say this. If you want "gear progression", then you need to find another MMO. BW is doing what blizzard should have done and thats cater to casuals. I like that ANYONE can get the best gear and still have fun.

 

Why pay a monthly fee then? Every game without a monthly fee caters to casuals.

Interesting definition you got there kid. I would equate Hardcore to mean more passionate about something.

 

Would you put the same stigma on say a proffessional athlete? Or someone who really like cars?

 

 

No, he's right.

 

Casual = doesn't play a lot

 

Hardcore = plays a lot

 

You really don't need to read further into it than that. And you SURE as hell aren't a professional.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Notannos
rude quote

MMO casuals that don't want to put effort into their game make me laugh so hard, i cry. you DESERVE to be stomped all over. its not even the gear that makes a differance in this game, in my opinion. the thing that makes ME sick is the fact that YOU expect to get all this handed to you, then YOU feel entitled to insult the people that actually DESERVE respect.

 

did you really think that elitests are the problem with this genre? you are the problem. you're worse than any elitest that has ever rofl stomped you, because you do the same as them except you have nothing to back you other than " i don't want to have to spend my time playing as if its a second job" and you always feel like everything is entitled to you because its not "fun".

 

they should make a kiddie bracket just for you all, where there IS no gear, just tokens that give you vanity crap. no gear progression. it'll be the same as you getting your crap handed to you. what? thats not acceptable? why not? because gear makes you feel special right? you like to feel like you've 'earned' something? SO DO WE. GET OVER IT.

OP which would you rather have:

 

1) A PvP match that is determined solely by the skill of the players

2) A PvP match that is determined solely by the gear of the players

3) A PvP match that is determined in part by the gear and in part by the skill of the players

 

 

A lot of people want a skill only match up: who is better at this game, you or I? To take care of the need to feel you are accomplishing something (which is what getting gear effectively does) many games implement stat tracking and character ranking for multiplayer. This gives you an avenue to progress your character without influencing the straight skill match up of the players. If you have an issue with progression via stat tracking and player ranking, could you please elaborate on that?

 

Option 1 naturally, but that is a non issue in Ranked as everyone at the top % will be equally geared save for what geear/trinket and mod choices they made. It's not wrong in my oppinion to leverage knowledge of the game to squeeze out a little bit of extra preformance out of your gear to give you that little edge.

Even in tournament WoW games you get a choice of gear sets.

MMO casuals that don't want to put effort into their game make me laugh so hard,

 

Stop lying. This is what you really mean:

 

MMO casuals that don't want to put as much time as me into their game make me laugh so hard,

Edited March 6, 2012 by EternalFinality

No, he's right.

 

Casual = doesn't play a lot

 

Hardcore = plays a lot

 

You really don't need to read further into it than that. And you SURE as hell aren't a professional.

 

I'm a professional in real life which is what i am assuming you are refering to. We got plenty of underpreforming dead weight at work too that think we are work a holic ***-kissing brown noses who only got ahead of them because of our sucking up, and not because of our superior education and efforts. We got no life outside work, our lifes are empty our kids of unhappy delinquints blablabla. I heard it all before from the cry babies.

Stop lying. This is what you really mean:

 

 

yeah, put words into my mouth. you know so very well what i mean.

 

and to give you no room for a sarcastic comment, I'm being sarcastic. its nice to have someone reinforce my arguement almost minutes after i posted it though.

yeah, put words into my mouth. you know so very well what i mean.

 

and to give you no room for a sarcastic comment, I'm being sarcastic. its nice to have someone reinforce my arguement almost minutes after i posted it though.

 

Given the rest of your rant about "earning something" that's exactly what you meant.

Edited March 6, 2012 by EternalFinality

Fine lets halt ALL gear progression from now on. Only cosmetic mods in PvP and PvE from here on until they pull the plug.

 

Sounds good.

 

 

EVERYONE can man up and join the ranked warzone and compete for the best stuff. It's not like there is anything stopping you. But no that would take actually effort and skill on your part.

 

Actually, it doesn't take effort or skill. It just takes a willingness to sink time.

 

 

Your taliking about how elitist our attitude are, yet you poudly proclaim that only the constituency that you represent is relevant. It's kind of like Democratic Oppression.

 

Hypocrite.

 

I was merely stating facts. However, in general, I don't mind being hypocritical as long as I am right.

 

Note: me being right means you are still wrong.

 

 

Gear rewards are not a crutch, they're a reward; good players will always beat bad players regardless of gear. ONLY close skill levels will notice gear making a difference.

 

Poor players will claim it's the gear, but it's RARELY the gear.

 

Indeed. I simply get pissy with terribads are running around in top-end gear and putting out more than 2/3rds of my performance. If I didn't have, say, a job, and interests in other activities beyond SWTOR, I would also have said gear, and the terribads would only perform half as well. It's embarassing.

As someone that only PVP's but doesn't like gear progression, I can say that this game is far too gear oriented. I don't mind titles, Social gear, etc but the amount of gear tiers in this game create a gap between causal players and people with the time/interest to grind the PvP gear.

 

The fact is that those of us that PvP all the time NEED the casuals to fill up queues. Those are our opponents and we ignore them at our own risk. The fact is we probably already out-skill them just with little tricks of the trade in each map, do you really need to have 10% more immunity and better stats? Is this really what you call PvP?

 

It is in fact a crutch and the initial step in a long decline of PvP. As less and less of those casuals you despise queue, the longer your queue will be. The longer the queue the more people leave or simply stop queuing. After a while you're sitting in you 45 Minute queues with your +250 Battle Panties Of N00b Slaying wondering why no one wants to play.

 

I would have no problem with this progression if the higher tiered player got little or nothing for his efforts. Like when a lvl 50 goes to farm lvl 10 NPCs. Reward should be commensurate to effort not vice versa. Most "PvPers" want to be rewarded for little or no effort.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Fylkras

MMO casuals that don't want to put effort into their game make me laugh so hard, i cry. you DESERVE to be stomped all over. its not even the gear that makes a differance in this game, in my opinion. the thing that makes ME sick is the fact that YOU expect to get all this handed to you, then YOU feel entitled to insult the people that actually DESERVE respect.

 

did you really think that elitests are the problem with this genre? you are the problem. you're worse than any elitest that has ever rofl stomped you, because you do the same as them except you have nothing to back you other than " i don't want to have to spend my time playing as if its a second job" and you always feel like everything is entitled to you because its not "fun".

 

they should make a kiddie bracket just for you all, where there IS no gear, just tokens that give you vanity crap. no gear progression. it'll be the same as you getting your crap handed to you. what? thats not acceptable? why not? because gear makes you feel special right? you like to feel like you've 'earned' something? SO DO WE. GET OVER IT.

 

Please excuse me if I am reading this wrong, but it appears you are saying that "elitists deserve respect" based on the first line of your second paragraph and the last line of your first paragraph. Essentially, if you think you are better than other people, you deserve respect.

 

I think what you meant to say is that people who are really good at PvP deserve respect. I would agree that people should respect one's skill in PvP. However, skill which allows you to win a match deserves respect, but I would say that gear that allows one to win a match does not command the same respect. Look at every professional sport and a vast majority of multiplayer games. The respect in these competitions comes from one player's ability over another, not one player's gear over another. Take Halo and StarCraft as examples. Halo 1 (and subsequently 2 and 3) was one of if not the most played multiplayer game in the USA. I believe 3 is still the most played. Starcraft has essentially become the national pastime of South Korea. They actually have big tournaments for money televise competitions, and champions are actually national celebrities. These games, and a majority of other multiplayer games, have no gear or character progression. It is a pure match of skill v skill. What they do have is stat tracking and ranking, that is how the progress.

 

What is wrong with having a leaderboard with rankings and stat trackings and leave the game to a pure competition of skill?

Edited March 6, 2012 by Laokoon

There are like 3 threads crying about this already.

 

Gear crutches in PvP are stupid, everyone should be relatively equal.

 

Catering to a small elitist (ELITIST NOT ELITE) group of people with massive amounts of time on their hands, who want to stomp so called 'casuals' with no skill required (because for some reason putting so much time should entitle them to) will NOT make a sustainable MMO. The people that play casually, i.e. have a life outside of MMOs, are what make up the subscriptions and keep the game profitable. Making 'hardcore' players gods of pvp will just drive everyone else away.

 

I'm not an "elitist" but I am concerned that there being no PvP armor progression or a cap on progression would inevitably lead to PvE armor being the decisive factor on who wins PvP matches which in my mind is completely wrong.

 

If they are going to cap PvP armor stats they need to cap PvE armor as well (on the same level).

 

Make PvE skill based and not armor based just like PvP so that PvE armor has no affect on the outcome of a PvP match. I don't see why their should be a difference.

Why is it only bads are against gear progression. I have never heard a top pvper say "This game sucks, gear is a crutch". I have never known a good pvper in any MMO to not end up with the best gear eventually. Good players get gear and roll face, bad players lose and blame it on the fact they dont have the gear to compete. People want a carrot on the stick, that's what keeps people playing mmorpgs these days, saying your supposed to play the game for fun not gear is out of touch with the majority of the player base.

 

 

 

I'm sure there will be a plethora of responses from bad players saying how they are good and feel otherwise incoming any second now.

And that's not what you're asking for. You're asking for "I want a new armor that is flat out more powerful than what I had, and more powerful than than the armor that my opponents have."

 

That's what you mean by progression. Not taking the available gear and mixing it up to produce a new combination. Don't even try to deny it.

 

no thats the words your putting in the persons mouth ***. alot of people play rpg's for item progression and new stuff but you dont care about that right you just care about getting what you want and stuffing words into somebodys argument because your too stupid to make your own point.

Option 1 naturally, but that is a non issue in Ranked as everyone at the top % will be equally geared

 

Not really, unless gear matters. They only end up with the "same" gear level because of the GearCheck wall at lower ranks.

 

 

It's not wrong in my oppinion to leverage knowledge of the game to squeeze out a little bit of extra preformance out of your gear to give you that little edge.

 

Other players would, instead, leverage their knowledge of the game to squeeze out a little bit of extra performance out their abilities, positioning, observation, prediction of enemy intent, tactics, strategy. Aka leverage their skill.

 

You feel inferior because you lack the Nth degree of skill to leverage. So instead, you wish to leverage the Nth degree of gear to make up for your deficiency and still remain "competitive".

Option 1 naturally, but that is a non issue in Ranked as everyone at the top % will be equally geared save for what geear/trinket and mod choices they made. It's not wrong in my oppinion to leverage knowledge of the game to squeeze out a little bit of extra preformance out of your gear to give you that little edge.

Even in tournament WoW games you get a choice of gear sets.

 

The trouble is I am not so sure about that. It takes a LONG time to get BM armor pieces. It is not hard to image a great player who is missing a couple pieces of BM gear, and thus is put at a disadvantage not because of his skill but because of his bad luck with RNG. I grant that given a large enough time frame, every person working towards full BM gear will get it, but in the mean time they are put at a handicap versus everyone else based on RNG, not on skill.

 

Since you want a pure match up of skill, wouldn't it be logical to support doing away with gear progression for PvP stats which artificially holds people down via RNG, keep gear if you want as symbolic of your accomplishment but without special PvP stats, but show your prowess via leaderboards and stat tracking?

Edited March 6, 2012 by Laokoon

What Laokoon said is very accurate. Respect is earned not by grinding gear. How can you tell who to "respect" if their match stats are based on their gear.

 

I usually get 3 or 4 votes in every match and that is enough respect for me.