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Why was the Outlander so weak before Vaylin and Arcann?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Why was the Outlander so weak before Vaylin and Arcann?

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
12.16.2015 , 07:21 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Leaveshill View Post
Don't tell me you consider master Karr to be more impressive than Thanaton? Haha. That's just silly, if you do. And while killing Vengean was impressive enough, he brought Lord Draagh, and Lord Draagh is, after all, Wrath's most impressive duel-kill... So, it's not very impressive. I mean, it wasn't a fair fight. Not at all. And he didn't kill "dozens of sith force users", you don't kill every single nameless NPC in the world, just saying. Just like Nox didn't kill 13 Sith at Quesh, he killed one Sith lord and not 12 sith assassins as well.... Still. Vengean is not a very impressive feat due to Draagh being there as well
Killing the Plaguemaster, however... That's impressive, really impressive. One of the most impressive feats in the game, in truth.
Draagh didn't participate in the vengean fight and held back just to see what the Wrath could do. Even in game he spends the entire fight being force choked. He also defeated the Emperor's voice who was taken over by Sel Makor (a force entity.) and defeated Darth Baras who was empowered by Sel Makor and had empowered himself with the Force Entity who is confirmed to be the spirit of Darth Traya. Baras himself was a capable duelist and was able to hold off Satele Shan. There was a reason he made it to the council in the first place (he was also stabbed in the back and it didn't really phase him.)

Draahg was also an impressive victory. He should have died multiple times but through sheer willpower was able to return until the wrath decapitated him. Draahg also one shot Vowrawn taking him out of the fight effortlessly (another dark council member.) Note Baras tied the Entity to Draahg and his cybernetics. Does this make Wrath more impressive than Nox? Of course not. All four force users have similar level feats. They're all equal. To say otherwise is fanboyism.

My main is a madness sorcerer.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
12.16.2015 , 07:21 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by adormitul View Post
The warden of the order killed a abomination in the force that had the power of several jedi masters while himself was weakened by shielding several jedi masters.
The wrath defeated a jedi master and her apprentice and at the end of chapter 2 he killed a dark council member a actual dark council member together with dozens of sith force users.
That one was a plague, no proof showed that he is more powerful than Thanaton, if you pick dark side you don't shield any of them at all.

But the Wrath still require others help to defeat Baras' master.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
12.16.2015 , 07:23 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
Draagh didn't participate in the vengean fight and held back just to see what the Wrath could do. Even in game he spends the entire fight being force choked. He also defeated the Emperor's voice who was taken over by Sel Makor (a force entity.) and defeated Darth Baras who was empowered by Sel Makor and had empowered himself with the Force Entity who is confirmed to be the spirit of Darth Traya. Baras himself was a capable duelist and was able to hold off Satele Shan. There was a reason he made it to the council in the first place (he was also stabbed in the back and it didn't really phase him.)

Draahg was also an impressive victory. He should have died multiple times but through sheer willpower was able to return until the wrath decapitated him. Draahg also one shot Vowrawn taking him out of the fight effortlessly (another dark council member.) Note Baras tied the Entity to Draahg and his cybernetics. Does this make Wrath more impressive than Nox? Of course not. All four force users have similar level feats. They're all equal. To say otherwise is fanboyism.

My main is a madness sorcerer.
Most of them happened later in the end of chapter 2 or 3. Nox got owned by Thanaton in the beginning of chapter 2, when he/she had just finished with Zash.

ArenCordial's Avatar


ArenCordial
12.16.2015 , 07:25 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Leaveshill View Post
A) Force walking is a difficult ritual, and the average Sith cannot bind the dead. The average Sith Lord will simply fail and die. That's a fact. "Even the great Tulak Hord didn't tangle with ghosts"- Khem to the SI.
Most sith lords would simply die. Most likely, all the other PCs would die to, they'd never be able to bind the dead due to it being a dark side ritual that demands "a rare pull amongst ghosts", as Kallig describes it.
B) as an acolyte, he defeats a dashade in single combat, which is actually incredibly impressive. This is much more impressive than the feats the JC, SW or JK had at similar times, and he had less training than all (even though it's natural to assume that the SI spends much more time than the other 3 at the starter planet, as he goes through the academy normally, the SW does not and the jedi are already "almost fully trained."
C) Nox, as an apprentice on the first planet he arrives at, has the most feats toO. He kills every single apprentice of Skotia, as well as a Sith Lord, before killing a Darth as well. But surely, he's "an average sith lord" before he binds the dead, even though he's capable of destryoing an entire powerbase at this stage. Wrath never did something close to that at this stage;Neither did the JK or JC before later in their careers. But the apprentice that destroyed an entire Darth's powerbase at this early phase is "an average Sith lord".
Nox also managed difficult rituals like mind healing and dream walking.
You may not like Nox, but Nox isn't even a tiny bit weaker than the other PCs. Not even without the ghosts. Thanaton is shown as one of the most powerful sorcerers in-game; by the way, as you can see in the SI-ending. Much more impressive than let's say, Baras. Much more. Thanaton is actually a master of the Dark side.
Also; Thanaton didn't "bother to check" because he could feel the darn SI being dead, because he was indeed dead for a moment. He didn't think that the SI had force-walked, because, nobody force-walks; people don't dare try and everyone that tries fails. *Valkorion being the only other person that we know of thasn't failed. -See the conversation("Dream of Empire"- "I always hoped I'd add you to my collection" -SI "I could say the same"- Valky
Saying that Nox is close to an "average sith lord" without the ghosts is simply comical. It's like saying that the Wrath is "just the average muscle, found at every corner, nothing special to see here, luckily for him some big people pushed him in the right direction, could've been anyone!"
Please edit this to make it more easily readable. You make decent points but you make a lot them and its a pain to get through.

A.) Forcewalking is a rare talent, and the Inquisitor's predisposition to it is the source of the Inquisitor's path to power. Like you said the Inquisitor can be assumed to have less training than the Jedi and probably the Warrior thus Forcewalking is the way the Inquisitor was able to even the playing field. Frankly I think it lead more to the Inquisitor breaking through training barriers so the PC's natural strength could manifest more easily in lieu of serious training.

Second I doubt guys like Tulak Hord frankly gave a rats behind about Forcewalking. There's a lot of risks with little pay off. As Ergast said you don't bind more than one ghost and lets face it most ghosts are but shadows of the power they held in life. One ghost doesn't amount to much so why take a potential distraction if you're not going to get a decent bump in power. The only reason the Inquisitor binds more than one ghost is simply because he didn't know better.

B.) Defeating Khem is impressive but not that impressive given the state you find him in. More impressive than the other acolytes who are the Inquisitor's competition? Sure. As far as Skotia is concerned Zash handed it up on a silver platter so the Inquisitor could take the heat if necessary, given the ease his minor powerbase was destroyed its a feat but lets not make more of it than it is.

C.) I think the point the other person was making is not that the Inquisitor is a "3" without the ghosts but rather by the end of Act 1 is a 3. The Inquisitor is as powerful as the other Force Using PC with or without the ghosts so a 5 on that scale. By the end of Act 3 I don't see any evidence that the Inquisitor gains much from the ghosts now. The Inquisitor's power has grown enough they matter less and less. Its kind of like having 5 cups of water. Sure it makes a difference when you pour them into a barrel, but when you pour them into a lake nobody notices. The Inquisitor over the acts grows from a barrel into a lake.

Leaveshill's Avatar


Leaveshill
12.16.2015 , 07:43 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by ArenCordial View Post
La la .
I'll edit it; I probably was a bit lazy!

A) We agree on this one.

B) While that's true, I compared it to the other's feats at the same time (Meaning, at their early-phase, pre-capital), and I find it more impressive than the other's feats at this point. And while Zash obviously helped, the raw power to tear it down was still impressive for an apprentice in his earliest period. It's nothing compared to any of the Force.using PCs feats overall, but it's impressive compared to the JK killing Black-sun criminals, for instance.

C) While that may be correct, it seemed to me like the person meant that Nox without ghosts=average Sith Lord, Darth Skotia or Lord Grathan calibre. I may of course be wrong in that aspect.

*Also, binding ghosts are a source of great power. It's worth the risk; after all we get the indication that The Emperor also is a force walker in Dream of Empire? - Look at the scene, SI ; "I always hoped I'd get to add you to my collection"; Valky "I can say the same of you" or something like that. Meaning, if it's true(which is appears to be) that it's totally worth it, and Tulak Hord didn't for other reasons than it not being worth it. Of course, the ritual of Force walk was Ergast attempt to copy Tulak Hord's force-devour ritual and therefore he couldn't have known of it (and he didn't try to experiment either. But still; Force walk is a very powerful ritual,.

Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
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Draagh did force Vengean to waste his force on him, so it's still a major distraction for Vengean. But okey, maybe I'm giving Wrath too little credit for that.

I don't consider Draagh's power over Vowrawn impressive though; due to Vowrawn almost being one-shot by a simple mercenary as well; which is a sign of Vowrawn's strenght being very, very low for a Sith Lord's standards.

And indeed, they're all equal, with basically the same level of feats. I just find it weird if someone indicates that Karr is a more challenging enemy than Thanaton. I didn't mean that Wrath didn't have impresive feats, simply that his most impressive kill (at least I find it so) is Draagh and not Karr (And not Baras either, for that matter) That may be wrong, of course, but that's how I see it. I find Draagh to be a very impressive kill. I just fail to see how someone can say that defeating Karr and his padawan means that Thanaton would be dead to, as I can't see Karr being stronger than Thanaton in the force.

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
12.16.2015 , 07:55 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Leaveshill View Post
Draagh did force Vengean to waste his force on him, so it's still a major distraction for Vengean. But okey, maybe I'm giving Wrath too little credit for that.

I don't consider Draagh's power over Vowrawn impressive though; due to Vowrawn almost being one-shot by a simple mercenary as well; which is a sign of Vowrawn's strenght being very, very low for a Sith Lord's standards.

And indeed, they're all equal, with basically the same level of feats. I just find it weird if someone indicates that Karr is a more challenging enemy than Thanaton. I didn't mean that Wrath didn't have impresive feats, simply that his most impressive kill (at least I find it so) is Draagh and not Karr (And not Baras either, for that matter) That may be wrong, of course, but that's how I see it. I find Draagh to be a very impressive kill. I just fail to see how someone can say that defeating Karr and his padawan means that Thanaton would be dead to, as I can't see Karr being stronger than Thanaton in the force.
Yeah, I agree with you. Thanaton > Karr. I do want to point out the bold. All vengean did was hold Draahg under force choke. For someone on Vengean's level (especially since Draahg admitted he was holding back and let it happen so he can see Wrath in action) wouldn't take much. It pretty much is a solo kill for the Wrath. It also makes sense too. It was in that moment where Baras decided Wrath was too dangerous and wanted to kill him. Draahg probably reported "Yeah, I hung back seeing what Wrath would do and he killed Vengean without breaking a sweat.." This made Baras nervous. Rightfully so.

What puzzles me is why tie something as powerful as the Entity to Draahg when Draahg himself was young with a lot of potential? I could never figure that out. Then again Draahg admitted he kept a lot of secrets from Baras. Learned sorcery and swordplay from both vengean and Baras and he felt confident he had grown stronger than both. Maybe Baras truly had no idea of Draahg's potential?

adormitul's Avatar


adormitul
12.16.2015 , 07:59 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Leaveshill View Post
Don't tell me you consider master Karr to be more impressive than Thanaton? Haha. That's just silly, if you do. And while killing Vengean was impressive enough, he brought Lord Draagh, and Lord Draagh is, after all, Wrath's most impressive duel-kill... So, it's not very impressive. I mean, it wasn't a fair fight. Not at all. And he didn't kill "dozens of sith force users", to get to Vengean; he killed a few Sith on the way; you don't kill every single nameless NPC in the world, just saying. Just like Nox didn't kill 13 Sith at Quesh, he killed one Sith lord and not 12 sith assassins as well.... Still. Vengean is not a very impressive feat due to Draagh being there as well
Killing the Plaguemaster, however... That's impressive, really impressive. One of the most impressive feats in the game, in truth.
Of course you do why would not do it? Its even mentioned in the dialogue there are even named sith lords there why its the home of Darth a dark council one of course its full of sith force users.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPZ8R4H__ys

Leaveshill's Avatar


Leaveshill
12.16.2015 , 08:08 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
La
I had a feeling you would agree on that!

Hmm. While that's true, wouldn't it still be demand concentration? Even if if only demands a fraction of his focus, it's still a problem as all focus must be directed at the fight. But of course, you're right that it's so impressive that Baras decides to betray his own apprentice out of fear.

Also; did he learn from Vengean behind Baras' back? I was under the impression that Baras wanted Draagh to grow stronger, and also that Draagh was a very, very loyal servant to Baras; I didn't think he had any secrets from Baras either. Of course, I only played through the Warrior storyline once and I may have missed this; I just can't recall him saying it. Maybe I didn't pay attention or maybe I chose the wrong lines in the conversations, though.
Baras may of course have underestimated Draagh, even though it's not typical of Baras to underestimate

Quote: Originally Posted by adormitul View Post
La las[/url]
Wrath kill a few sith there, true. Not dozens. Keep in mind that, beside normal troopers, the not-named npcs are rarely killed by you for anything but game-mechanics. Yes, Wrath kills 3 (or maybe 4) force users there before he faces Vengean; which is very impressive "in a day's work"; but it's not "killed dozens of force users". Nobody has dozens of force users stuck in their basement; it's a war going on and work to be done. Just like Thanaton doesn't send 13 sith to kill Nox's apprentices; He sends one sith lord alone. That Sith Lord doesn't need 12 more sith; It's not like he's storming the Jedi Temple or something.

adormitul's Avatar


adormitul
12.16.2015 , 09:40 PM | #39
Quote:
Wrath kill a few sith there, true. Not dozens. Keep in mind that, beside normal troopers, the not-named npcs are rarely killed by you for anything but game-mechanics. Yes, Wrath kills 3 (or maybe 4) force users there before he faces Vengean; which is very impressive "in a day's work"; but it's not "killed dozens of force users". Nobody has dozens of force users stuck in their basement; it's a war going on and work to be done. Just like Thanaton doesn't send 13 sith to kill Nox's apprentices; He sends one sith lord alone. That Sith Lord doesn't need 12 more sith; It's not like he's storming the Jedi Temple or something.
Ok lets take it logically first he is a Darth right? Second a Dark Council member right?
Now lets see what we know about Darth's well each of them have a power base of some extent proved by quite a number Darth's we meet.
Lets take Darth Angral for example he had 4 sith lords under his command and a huge ship and a army is that true?
Now was Darth Angral on the council? No he was not and yet he had quite a powerful power base.
Lets take Darth Baras for example he had about 4 apprentices we know of and a freaking intelligence base surpassed only by Darth Janus also a small army.
Darth Baras was also not a dark council member.
And then comes Darth Thanaton actual council member how many sith where did you all saw during the Kaggath?
How many of them where Darth rank and how many darth and lords where killed by the SI in the struggle that took years who where subordinates to Thanaton?
Now was Darth Vengeance a dark council member and a Darth?

Chaloss's Avatar


Chaloss
12.16.2015 , 11:30 PM | #40
So Outlander is weaker than Vaylin and Arcann because he/she spent too much time proving himself/herself being superior to rivals from Republic and Empire?