I'm wondering why they cannot continue doing what they did on Iokath, especially since the questlines have us on new planets/areas. On Iokath you got to use the base for the faction you supported and got to do their quests, but it didn't affect any other planets. They came up with a plausible excuse for your still being able to access your old faction's fleet. No switching abilities, no switching sides for every planet, but you got to support whomever you wanted, openly.

 

It would be a pain to figure out how to make this work on the old planets (ie, how does a former Jedi go to an Imperial base on Alderaan without getting attacked) but since we're talking new planets, I wonder why they cannot program them like Iokath.

I'm wondering why they cannot continue doing what they did on Iokath, especially since the questlines have us on new planets/areas. On Iokath you got to use the base for the faction you supported and got to do their quests, but it didn't affect any other planets. They came up with a plausible excuse for your still being able to access your old faction's fleet. No switching abilities, no switching sides for every planet, but you got to support whomever you wanted, openly.

 

It would be a pain to figure out how to make this work on the old planets (ie, how does a former Jedi go to an Imperial base on Alderaan without getting attacked) but since we're talking new planets, I wonder why they cannot program them like Iokath.

 

im thinking thats what they will do eventually, either during onslaught or in its aftermath. Also timeline wise it would make no sense for them to change old planets so no need to worry about that. If you are at this point of the timeline im sorry but you dont get to switch sides and invade Corellia again

I am also wondering how they plan to handle it with the LIs. All of the KOTFE ones are problematic to one or both factions. I can't see the Jedi Council reacting well if you show up and tell them you married a Sith. Or either faction being comfortable with Arcann. Among the vanilla companions I do think there are those who would walk if they discovered their LI was a saboteur. Elara Dorne, certainly. Probably Jorgan, too. Kira. Possibly Raina. Quinn's very loyal to the SW but I think even he would object and walk if the PC ended up blowing the Empire to bits. There's also the point that with the exception of Theron and Lana you can't even tell the LI you're a saboteur, so now you're lying to them too.

 

*SPOILERS BELOW*

 

I think there would have to be consequences with your LIs or else it would just be plain weird. In addition to the ones you mentioned above, I can't see Nadia sticking with the consular if he goes to the Empire. I also just can't imagine Theron would be okay with it in the long run; he hated Saresh, but overall he's a Republic man right down the line. And what about Dark Jaesa? No way she'd hang with the Republic--they won't let her kill everything in sight. Doc fought against the Empire on Balmorra so I wouldn't think he'd follow a saboteur JK to the enemy--same with Corso, who hated the Imps for supporting the Seps on Ord Mantell. Other LIs like Kaliyo (no morals whatsoever), Andronikos (although he did hate the Republic once), possibly Torian (he's more of a laid back surfer dude Mando), Mako, Vette, and Risha might not mind so much which faction their main squeeze is siding with. Maybe Lana, too. Or I could be totally wrong. Whatever the case, I do expect people will be losing LIs for their decisions--look at how they took Elara away if you blew up Zakuul.

Edited June 25, 2019 by sauceemynx

im thinking thats what they will do eventually, either during onslaught or in its aftermath. Also timeline wise it would make no sense for them to change old planets so no need to worry about that. If you are at this point of the timeline im sorry but you dont get to switch sides and invade Corellia again

 

Yeah, it's expected that by the time you finish KOTET you've done your class story, planetary areas and bonus series.

 

The only places I could see it being weird for older planets would be for things like heroics and some of the daily areas, which a lot of players grind. But those are at an earlier point in the timeline anyway so even now if you do them, they're technically out of continuity. The daily areas also seem to have the same common enemy even when the quests are different (ie, Black Hole, everyone's fighting Torvix), so that can be overlooked.

I don't really like it either.

Playing the saboteur could work for my AI who became a double agent at the end of her class story and for my SI who's a sneaky guy and hates the Empire.

My BH was never an imperial to begin with and became a Madalorian during her class story, so the saboteur thing doesn't really make sense, especially since the Mandalorians are with the Alliance.

And my SW, she's not really suited for spy games, she'd rather openly fight against the Empire.

 

That being said, if that was an option, all my characters would rather be their own faction than being with either the Empire or Republic.

 

In my opinion, if you choose the faction at character creation. You should be locked to it forever. Story wise, game play wise. Only time I'd think it would work is if they added the tokens to switch factions like in WoW.

Except that storywise all characters can have valid reasons to dislike their original faction and be willing to switch sides.

You can even choose to become an actual SIS double agent at the end of the IA story.

Why give these options if you're still forced to work for a faction your character despises ?

Forcing evryone back to their original faction would make half of my main characters unplayable for me

 

I am also wondering how they plan to handle it with the LIs. All of the KOTFE ones are problematic to one or both factions. I can't see the Jedi Council reacting well if you show up and tell them you married a Sith. Or either faction being comfortable with Arcann. Among the vanilla companions I do think there are those who would walk if they discovered their LI was a saboteur. Elara Dorne, certainly. Probably Jorgan, too. Kira. Possibly Raina. Quinn's very loyal to the SW but I think even he would object and walk if the PC ended up blowing the Empire to bits. There's also the point that with the exception of Theron and Lana you can't even tell the LI you're a saboteur, so now you're lying to them too.

I'm wondering that as well.

I'm not sure even Theron and Lana would be ok with their lover burning their original faction to the ground in the long run. It's pretty obvious that both of them are still attached to the Republic and Empire.

I can't see Dorne who is an imperial deserter willing to go back to the Empire or Jorgan willing to serve the Empire, he didn't like Saresh and what she did to the Republic but still likes the Republic more than the Empire.

And some LIs have very valid reasons to dislike one of the 2 factions.

Some other may not care that much like Vette or Torian.

 

I'm wondering why they cannot continue doing what they did on Iokath, especially since the questlines have us on new planets/areas. On Iokath you got to use the base for the faction you supported and got to do their quests, but it didn't affect any other planets.

I really wish they did that for Ossus as well. If you sided with the Republic no matter your original faction you get to protect the colony, and if you sided with the Empire, no matter your original faction, you get to attack it.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Goreshaga

*SPOILERS BELOW*

 

I think there would have to be consequences with your LIs or else it would just be plain weird. In addition to the ones you mentioned above, I can't see Nadia sticking with the consular if he goes to the Empire. I also just can't imagine Theron would be okay with it in the long run; he hated Saresh, but overall he's a Republic man right down the line. And what about Dark Jaesa? No way she'd hang with the Republic--they won't let her kill everything in sight. Doc fought against the Empire on Balmorra so I wouldn't think he'd follow a saboteur JK to the enemy--same with Corso, who hated the Imps for supporting the Seps on Ord Mantell. Other LIs like Kaliyo (no morals whatsoever), Andronikos (although he did hate the Republic once), possibly Torian (he's more of a laid back surfer dude Mando), Mako, Vette, and Risha might not mind so much which faction their main squeeze is siding with. Maybe Lana, too. Or I could be totally wrong. Whatever the case, I do expect people will be losing LIs for their decisions--look at how they took Elara away if you blew up Zakuul.

 

They've created a real mess.

 

For others, Akaavi's profile says she dislikes the Republic so if you side with the Empire, I can't think that she would have an issue. Felix was treated horribly by the Republic so he might not care about a switch at this point. Same for Vector on the other side. Nadia says something about having to learn to co-exist peacefully with the Sith when you meet her on Odessen, so I think it's possible she would be all right with a switch, so long as the Empire-siding JC didn't go all DS and kill everything in sight.

 

I think both Lana and Theron will have an issue if the PC goes too far in hurting their old faction. Lana is extremely loyal, but like Theron she's still attached to her old faction at heart - she disapproves if you side Republic on Iokath, for instance. Theron already seems displeased if the PC is a saboteur, which doesn't bode well.

 

I think if they are being realistic they will also have issues with the faction handling the LI. The Jedi hate Sith. Lana is Sith and decidedly so, and I think that just like Scourge, if you show up with her in Jedi land, some NPCs will immediately be hostile. Likewise with Theron, he's directly responsible for causing damage to the Empire and killing Sith lords, AND is the Grand Master and Jace Malcom's kid, so I can't imagine the Empire embracing him with open arms.

Except that storywise all characters can have valid reasons to dislike their original faction and be willing to switch sides.

You can even choose to become an actual SIS double agent at the end of the IA story.

Why give these options if you're still forced to work for a faction your character despises ?

Forcing evryone back to their original faction would make half of my main characters unplayable for me

 

I feel this way too. From the class stories onward there have been points where the PC can make changes, and in KOTFE they are outside of their faction, and Iokath happened. It seems wrong to force them all back into little boxes that might not fit them anymore, and it's not just headcanon - the story has led them away from those niches.

 

If my ex-Jedi are forced to become Jedi again, or my trooper is forced back into Havoc Squad, or my smuggler again becomes a pawn of the Republic, I'm just going to stop playing them. I really didn't like the auto-dialogue on Ossus even for saboteurs, where they were saying "it's so good to be back to the Jedi!" NO, it's not.

"it's so good to be back to the Jedi!" NO, it's not.

This annoyed me so much as well.

My ex Jedi may have sided with the Republic, BUT 1.she doesn't consider herself a Jedi anymore and 2.she's an ally, not a part of the Republic and has 0 intention of going back.

She chose the Republic only because she thought that it was the safe bet to keep the Alliance as independant as possible once the war's over.

 

I like that in the Hearts and minds bit of story you could actually sa so.

Fisrt to Theron when he comes to you with hoipes about the Republic to which you can pretty much answer with a "we'll see" and then during that interview where you can telle that guy that yeah you're an ally but not actually part of the Republic.

And I hop future dialogues will continue to allow that distinction.

 

I think both Lana and Theron will have an issue if the PC goes too far in hurting their old faction. Lana is extremely loyal, but like Theron she's still attached to her old faction at heart - she disapproves if you side Republic on Iokath, for instance. Theron already seems displeased if the PC is a saboteur, which doesn't bode well.

 

I think if they are being realistic they will also have issues with the faction handling the LI. The Jedi hate Sith. Lana is Sith and decidedly so, and I think that just like Scourge, if you show up with her in Jedi land, some NPCs will immediately be hostile. Likewise with Theron, he's directly responsible for causing damage to the Empire and killing Sith lords, AND is the Grand Master and Jace Malcom's kid, so I can't imagine the Empire embracing him with open arms.

Even if it may suck when playing an imp sympathiser romancing a pub sympathiser LI and vice versa, i still think the LIs should continue to act according to what they believe in.

I think that as long as our characters don't go too far it may be ok for some LIs, but not necessarily all of them, and it would be pretty illogical to me that a LI stays with you if you destroy everything they believe in. I think there our actions should have consequences on the relationship.

 

And as you said it would be more logical for people of a faction to have issues with LIs from the other faction.

Technically Jedi should have issues with any LI for a character wanting to go back to being a Jedi, but clearly more for Lana or Arcann. The Sith should have issues with Theron and Arcann...

They've created a real mess.

 

 

I think that's dead right. From a story standpoint I find what might come to pass quite fascinating, but no matter what happens, people are going to be deeply unhappy. Your LI and other companions don't care which faction you're with? Unrealistic and immersion-breaking. They do care and leave you? Give me my companions back! It's one thing if you know it's going to happen--for instance, anyone who starts a trooper now but previously played another one all the way through in the past will be aware of the Elara/Zakuul issue--but when we were originally given a choice to turn saboteur we were flying blind. Of course, we could have considered what might happen down the road, but that doesn't stop people feeling cheated.

 

Or maybe people will be fine with it. I don't know if there was a hue and outcry when troopers lost Elara in Iokath for previous decisions. Up until now I've decided whether to turn saboteur or not with an eye both toward following the character's story arc, and whether or not I'm willing to lose certain companions. Hedging my bets, if you will. Hopefully more will become plain with 6.0.

I have several characters who would probably change factions, but not a single one of them would be a spy and sabotage their former faction from the inside, they arent deceptive types.

I agree, the saboteur thing is not good - I really didn't like how it was done in hearts and minds. My characters would either openly change faction OR remain neutral and loyal to their alliance agreeing to assist one faction when it suits their Alliance's interests and not aligning permanently with either the Empire or the Republic.

I think that's dead right. From a story standpoint I find what might come to pass quite fascinating, but no matter what happens, people are going to be deeply unhappy. Your LI and other companions don't care which faction you're with? Unrealistic and immersion-breaking. They do care and leave you? Give me my companions back! It's one thing if you know it's going to happen--for instance, anyone who starts a trooper now but previously played another one all the way through in the past will be aware of the Elara/Zakuul issue--but when we were originally given a choice to turn saboteur we were flying blind. Of course, we could have considered what might happen down the road, but that doesn't stop people feeling cheated.

 

Or maybe people will be fine with it. I don't know if there was a hue and outcry when troopers lost Elara in Iokath for previous decisions. Up until now I've decided whether to turn saboteur or not with an eye both toward following the character's story arc, and whether or not I'm willing to lose certain companions. Hedging my bets, if you will. Hopefully more will become plain with 6.0.

 

Truth in all of this. From a story standpoint, it's frankly bad writing if they have the companions, some of whom have previously expressed very strong opinions toward one faction or the other, smile and nod and go along with anything. From a standpoint of someone who has grown attached to said companions, I do think it's going to upset a lot of people to lose them. There are companions that I frankly don't care about and don't care if they walk away, but there are others I deeply want to keep.

 

And I think it also is going to upset a lot of people in light of what they established in the SoR and KOTFE era - "hey, we will let you go outside your faction, make friends and allies from across the galaxy and--haha, only joking! Back to the Jedi with you!"

 

It's also a good point that those who will be playing through this story first will be flying blind. I think on some level it can sometimes be easy to anticipate how a companion might respond, but on the other hand, there's sometimes no warning. As you said, I don't think anyone playing a trooper would have even considered that something from KOTFE would have a permanent effect later. I don't think there was an outcry about it, but I also think that's because Elara may not be the most liked/popular of the companions. If, say, Vector had refused to come back because he heard you bombed the Spire, I think there would have been a lot more fallout.

 

All of this is why I'm not taking my most beloved characters through any of the new material right away.

Edited June 26, 2019 by IoNonSoEVero

Given that he left him to die my dark jedi shadow hops never to see Theron again. I want Tharan and Zenith back.

Truth in all of this. From a story standpoint, it's frankly bad writing if they have the companions, some of whom have previously expressed very strong opinions toward one faction or the other, smile and nod and go along with anything. From a standpoint of someone who has grown attached to said companions, I do think it's going to upset a lot of people to lose them. There are companions that I frankly don't care about and don't care if they walk away, but there are others I deeply want to keep.

 

And I think it also is going to upset a lot of people in light of what they established in the SoR and KOTFE era - "hey, we will let you go outside your faction, make friends and allies from across the galaxy and--haha, only joking! Back to the Jedi with you!"

 

It's also a good point that those who will be playing through this story first will be flying blind. I think on some level it can sometimes be easy to anticipate how a companion might respond, but on the other hand, there's sometimes no warning. As you said, I don't think anyone playing a trooper would have even considered that something from KOTFE would have a permanent effect later. I don't think there was an outcry about it, but I also think that's because Elara may not be the most liked/popular of the companions. If, say, Vector had refused to come back because he heard you bombed the Spire, I think there would have been a lot more fallout.

 

All of this is why I'm not taking my most beloved characters through any of the new material right away.

 

i mean in any game, even more so in story based rpgs, you always go in blind, unless spoilers obviously, you play, make the choices you want and then deal with the consequences, so yeah, i expect companions to leave, i expect some will try to kill you and i do expect choices i made earlier to matter, as with Elara. Thats where multiple characters and multiple choices come in, you cant have all the things on every character. I am NOT going back to the jedi tho

 

Luckily for me my main is a smuggler so im just going in with zero F's given, i doubt Risha cares who pays the bills

My personal guess is that the saboteur storyline is game and engine mechanics limitations driven rather than story. I think that if a 'clean switch' in factions was possible absent extensive recoding and the myriad of bugs that would inveitbly result, they'd have done so. Edited June 27, 2019 by Keta

The dual quest lines in Everquest 2 to switch factions are long, and contain sub-quests to both damage one's original faction as well as support one's new faction, but there's only one quest, either way.

 

Sounds like people overall in this thread don't mind the idea of the ability to change factions, they just don't like the story wrapped around with it. No one promised that changing factions would be a sterile, easy situation.

 

That players must follow through with actions that they find distasteful, at least in my mind, adds to the entire distasteful process. It's not meant to be an on/off switch with no pain involved.

The dual quest lines in Everquest 2 to switch factions are long, and contain sub-quests to both damage one's original faction as well as support one's new faction, but there's only one quest, either way.

 

Sounds like people overall in this thread don't mind the idea of the ability to change factions, they just don't like the story wrapped around with it. No one promised that changing factions would be a sterile, easy situation.

 

That players must follow through with actions that they find distasteful, at least in my mind, adds to the entire distasteful process. It's not meant to be an on/off switch with no pain involved.

 

I don't think it has to be 'sterile and easy' but I also think it's implausible from a story standpoint that some PCs would even be accepted back in their old factions at this point, and I think that the way they've set it up is bogus.

 

I feel like if they wanted to let people switch sides, just do it. They figured it out with Iokath, why can't they do it anywhere else? None of this half-***ed sneakling around, or at least a choice about that.

 

Given a choice, most of my characters would have stayed Alliance and not even bothered with the other factions. Second choice, my Republic characters would have switched sides openly, as they did on Iokath. No subterfuge, no cloak and dagger routines, just saying straight up that they now support the other side, and dealing with whatever consequences might happen from that. Sterile and easy? No, but honest. It would be far more interesting to me to have the whole Republic screaming for the Hero of Tython's head now that she's an Imp.

 

Not to mention that from a story standpoint the Republic would have no reason to even trust a former Jedi who literally aligned with the Empire every single time the opportunity presented itself.

 

Also, when we talk about losing companions whether one is loyalist or saboteur there's also the actual intrinsic time sink of earning those companions, and the fact that one may have invested credits/time in raising their influence. If they do leave, right now one can get them back from the terminal for missions/crafting, at least, but will that always be the case? People put a lot of time and effort into building an actual Alliance and now that's all going.

I think better then half of our comps are gonna have problems with this and our L.I.s are many of the Most Faction steadfast of them all so they "Wouldn't change, With Us" (Good bye to you, my love). Companions returning has probably been the most popular topic here and Reddit since before the Zakuul story ended and now here we are about to not only risk losing them away (Like before, again) but "Driving them Away" ourselves?? Not being here because of Dev. issues/ Poorly thought out story lines one thing; but losing them *Again because they Hate us is terrible.

 

BioWare has trouble putting out moderate (Small) sized updates on a schedule that is hardly acceptable already; add to that changing the original coding, faction and ability coding most, *Every Other facet SWTOR was based on adds *A lot More straws on the Camels back that it could just barely handle before. Even longer waits between smaller content drops (They can only do so much so fast, past history shows that) and the number of Bugs especially the main issues would also rise in a game that already ignores bugs.

 

I think this is gonna cause a lot of problems overall. Is this gonna be like Iokath where the faction change is Temporary (so it really isn't anything and doesn't matter, a Fake Change) or is this gonna be a very real issue, what kinda fallout is that gonna start? B.W. Offered "A lot" of Options in the Zakuul story they couldn't sustain, Even more Options in Iokath that further complicated their jobs (Players stories differentiating creating even more stories lines). From shoehorning 8 class's into 1 (one story's cheaper then eight) and using only a few Comps (Cheaper then all) to now story directions going every directions (Wayy more then 8) They keep offering options when they couldn't afford the most basic.

I think better then half of our comps are gonna have problems with this and our L.I.s are many of the Most Faction steadfast of them all so they "Wouldn't change, With Us" (Good bye to you, my love). Companions returning has probably been the most popular topic here and Reddit since before the Zakuul story ended and now here we are about to not only risk losing them away (Like before, again) but "Driving them Away" ourselves?? Not being here because of Dev. issues/ Poorly thought out story lines one thing; but losing them *Again because they Hate us is terrible.

 

BioWare has trouble putting out moderate (Small) sized updates on a schedule that is hardly acceptable already; add to that changing the original coding, faction and ability coding most, *Every Other facet SWTOR was based on adds *A lot More straws on the Camels back that it could just barely handle before. Even longer waits between smaller content drops (They can only do so much so fast, past history shows that) and the number of Bugs especially the main issues would also rise in a game that already ignores bugs.

 

I think this is gonna cause a lot of problems overall. Is this gonna be like Iokath where the faction change is Temporary (so it really isn't anything and doesn't matter, a Fake Change) or is this gonna be a very real issue, what kinda fallout is that gonna start? B.W. Offered "A lot" of Options in the Zakuul story they couldn't sustain, Even more Options in Iokath that further complicated their jobs (Players stories differentiating creating even more stories lines). From shoehorning 8 class's into 1 (one story's cheaper then eight) and using only a few Comps (Cheaper then all) to now story directions going every directions (Wayy more then 8) They keep offering options when they couldn't afford the most basic.

 

Your last part kinda summons it up pretty well really... They cut the budget to the game, and then had to cut corners, 8 stories to 1 for all story, bug handling got even worse than it was from launch, content draugt that lasted to dang long and a skeleton crew that "didnt listen" to the players about what they wished for in the game cause they just didnt have the money to pull it off. Heck even the customer service was/is lousy.

*looks at EA with evil eyes"

So yeah this is what we now have, a HUUUGE mess of a story that has so many things wrong with them, only really suits one class and with no way out of the corner but to do a complette overhaul of the game and back to scratch ( which for me i wouldnt mind at all at this point )

Yeah I sort of regret going double-agent one one of my characters based on how it played out in this recent update. It feels like we're going to be forced to make ourselves look like idiots, and that's going to be what they call being a double agent. When you look at other double agents in Star Wars lore, they were smart, they didn't seem at all like they were a double agent and many times had their own agenda's and may have been double-agenting both sides but that does not appear to be the case here. Having us go to make a speech and asking us to sound like morons was lazy and uncomfortable, I couldn't do it and not from a standpoint of guilt, but from the standpoint of it being cringey. I hope this changes in Onslaught, but the first taste of it was pretty awful.

I would never betray the Empire, and would - fact - disavow all events of KOTFE/KOTET just to become a "normal" Sith again.