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How to improve VG/PT tanking


JowyBlight's Avatar


JowyBlight
07.17.2018 , 06:50 PM | #1
I love PT/VG tanks. I was playing them since 1.0 as my main. They've been buffed and nerfed over the years. But they've been pretty weak in 5.0 compared to their force-user counterparts (especially sins/shadows).

Here are 3 ways they could improve VG/PT tanking trees to make them competitive again with the other 2 classess.


1. Give Reserve Powercell/Thermal Sensory Override just a minute (instead of 2min) CD timer, and add to it a cleanse effect. This would compete with Endure Pain and Shroud's cleansing effects. To those who complain that the tank getting 1 energy free attack each minute isn't fair. Who cares? Since when are tanks worried energy management in this game. It won't change their already nerfed dps much.

2. Let Shield Cannon/Guard Cannon heal you for 5% not 3% per each missile used. Tanks only get 4 missiles in our Shoulder Cannons anyhow, so that would mean getting 20% of HP back instead of 12%. This still doesn't compete with a Focus Defense, but it is still better than what we have now. To prevent the VG/PT dps from taking advantage of the heal with their more missiles. Keep the 3% heal in the utility the same, just add a 2% bonus in the tanking tree (totally 5%). That will keep the 2 dps specs from exploiting the extra healing in PVP and what not.

3. The more controversial option is give VG/PT a version of Echoing Deterrence/ Responsive Safeguards like their mando counterparts. It could function in the same way as saber reflect. Last for 5-6 seconds and generate a lot of threat, instead of healing you each time an attack is reflected like the merc version. Summarizing, keep the reflect ability, and just swap the passive heal out for more threat gen in the tank's version of it.

I think these three changes, or some similar utilities would make this tank comparable to the many DCDs and new utilities that the force-user tanks have had for a while now without breaking them or making them OP.
Ferid: Revanchist, Dread Master, and Gatecrasher ~ Vanguard Tank <Crimson Sky>

TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
07.17.2018 , 07:13 PM | #2
VG/PT also need Responsive Safeguards and Kolto Overload abilities.
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GhOsTPrOz's Avatar


GhOsTPrOz
07.24.2018 , 05:43 AM | #3
I have said VG tanks need a buff as well, but they likely won't do anything about it. Personally I think a reflect is kinda cheesy and adding more to the game further trivializes it. They don't need reflect but I like your other two ideas even if they keep the longer CD on RS.

My idea for a new cool down for VG is this:
Cool down 1m 30s
Effect- Grants 5 Stacks lasting 20 seconds, each stack absorbs 5k damage (effectively preventing 25k damage over 5 hits) from the next direct hit you take, if any stacks are left over they will heal for 5% per stack remaining, you can use this ability on yourself of an ally.

Maybe bring back our 30% add loss on Riot Gas too. That was an uncalled for nerf.

We all know bioware won't do anything though.
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Exocor's Avatar


Exocor
07.24.2018 , 07:25 AM | #4
When we talk about different tanks in our group some of my fellow raidmembers always argue towards a new defensive cooldown. However, the same raidmember is also saying "I'm taking that like a man!" when he is facing high damage income while playing PT/VG-tank.

To know how to improve for PT/VG-tanks we should have a look at the concepts of all three tanking specs, so that we don't move into the territory of other each other too far.

Shadow/Sin: This class has the highest number of defensive cooldowns (6). It very much relies on spike-mitigation by using several dcds with a short duration but also a short cooldown. They suffer from a lower passive damage reduction.

Vanguard/Powertech: This class has the lowest number of defensive cooldowns (4). It has the highes passive damage reduction and relies on its ability to take higher spikes without the need to mitigate them with dcd's.

Guardian/Juggernaut: This class is a mix between VG/PT and Shad/Sin. It has a higher passive damage reduction than Sins, but a lower DR then VG/PT. It has some dcd's with a short duration but also short cooldowns, but it's more difficult to use them properly. Guardians/Juggernauts have a medium number of defensive cooldowns (5), but their usefulness is debatable.

So, the case we see here is that with an increasing number of defensive cooldowns passive mitigation decreases. By adding new defensive cooldowns we would disrupt this kind of balance. In my opinion the way to improve Vanguards/Powertech should not go with adding a dcd but with improving the passive mitigation. We can add some bonus percentages for all stats if necessary. The other option would be to increase the usefulness of the existing dcds. But we must not consider adding defensive use on existing abilites and we must not add a new dcd.

My suggestion in this case would be the following:
Explosive Fuel/Combat Focus now grants 50% (up from 35%) defense chance. (This is mainly to give PT/VG a more reliable option for Brontes NiM to deal with spheres)
Kolto Overload/Adrenalin Rush now triggers if the players health is below 50% (up from 30%). Healing-value of each tick is increase bei 50%.
(passive) defense chances bonus (for all damage/attack types) by Ion Cell is increased by 5% (don't know what the current value is)
(passive) damage reduction bonus by Ion Cell is increase by 2%

With these changes, PT/VG would still not be on par with Shadow/Sin but it would finally be able to pull better performances in fights where Shadows/Sins are currently the best option (I'm looking for Brontes NiM here).
I'd also recommend to have a look into Guardian/Juggernaut. In my opinion, they can also bear a slight buff. It's very hard to find a boss fight where you prefer a Guardian over a shadow tank.
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AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
07.24.2018 , 09:05 AM | #5
I think the biggest problem for PT tanks currently is that they lack reliable cooldowns to protect them against predictable bursts of damage. Energy Shield is the only cooldown which really does this. Explosive Fuel is way too unreliable versus Force/Tech damage, and compared to Saber Ward and Deflection pretty weak versus Melee/Ranged damage. Oil Slick is a joke of a cooldown since they halved the accuracy loss on it. And Kolto Overload is pretty insignificant.

I'd start by bringing up Kolto Overload to 50% and make it heal somewhat faster. 35% health is just a little too low with all the big hits you can get, with this improvement you're sitting a little bit safer during Kolto Overload at least.

To address PT's lack of reliable cooldown I would do one of the following:

-Reduce the cooldown of Energy Shield to 1.5 minutes. Fairly straightforward, a lower cooldown on Energy Shield means you'll be able to use it for big hits (Enraged slams on TFB for instance) more reliably. Somewhat boring but probably effective enough.

- Somehow make Explosive Fuel more reliable. Maybe make it absorb 35% of damage taken. Or make it increase Melee/Ranged defense by 35% while absorbing 35% of Force/Tech damage ( la Saber Ward). Some of these numbers may have to be tweaked to be perfectly balanced. But the general idea would be to make Explosive Fuel more dependable, rather than a cooldown you pop and then pray to RNGesus for your 35% chance.

- Introduce a new cooldown for PT, somewhat in the spirit of Saber Reflect and Force Shroud (Short cooldown and effect, but a strong effect). Maybe it'd be interesting to give PT's a cooldown that increases shield chance by 100% for ~5 seconds, on a 1 minute cooldown. It synergises with Heat Blast to create a very powerful absorb cooldown for all shieldable attacks basically. It's somewhat in the spirit of Saber Reflect and Force Shroud, but has its own niche (shieldable attacks).

Any of these three options would in my opinion make PT tanks more competetive, but not too overpowered. I'd also really like a buff to Oil Slick, perhaps bring it back to 30% accuracy loss, but reduce the slow or radius to make it not too overpowered for ranked PvP.

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
07.24.2018 , 09:21 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Exocor View Post
Shadow/Sin: This class has the highest number of defensive cooldowns (6). It very much relies on spike-mitigation by using several dcds with a short duration but also a short cooldown. They suffer from a lower passive damage reduction.

Vanguard/Powertech: This class has the lowest number of defensive cooldowns (4). It has the highes passive damage reduction and relies on its ability to take higher spikes without the need to mitigate them with dcd's.

Guardian/Juggernaut: This class is a mix between VG/PT and Shad/Sin. It has a higher passive damage reduction than Sins, but a lower DR then VG/PT. It has some dcd's with a short duration but also short cooldowns, but it's more difficult to use them properly. Guardians/Juggernauts have a medium number of defensive cooldowns (5), but their usefulness is debatable.
While Assassin's may have the lowest DR of all tanks, they do have lower damage taken passively than PT's (if we include rotational buffs but not defensive cooldowns). This is largely because of Sin's bonusses to Shield chance and very high (the highest in game) Internal/Elemental damage reduction. Which just so happens to be the only category of damage not covered by Shield. So Sins may be somewhat spikier due to more reliance on defense and shield, they do actually have quite low passive damage taken. Juggs generally tend to perform a little better in passive damage taken on high Kinetic/Energy fights and Sins perform better on high Internal/Elemental fights. However PT's lag behind both on most fights. So I don't think it's fair to paint PT's as the passive mitigation tank, all they really have going for them there is a high Kinetic/Energy DR.

GhOsTPrOz's Avatar


GhOsTPrOz
07.24.2018 , 02:13 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Exocor View Post
When we talk about different tanks in our group some of my fellow raidmembers always argue towards a new defensive cooldown. However, the same raidmember is also saying "I'm taking that like a man!" when he is facing high damage income while playing PT/VG-tank.

To know how to improve for PT/VG-tanks we should have a look at the concepts of all three tanking specs, so that we don't move into the territory of other each other too far.

Shadow/Sin: This class has the highest number of defensive cooldowns (6). It very much relies on spike-mitigation by using several dcds with a short duration but also a short cooldown. They suffer from a lower passive damage reduction.

Vanguard/Powertech: This class has the lowest number of defensive cooldowns (4). It has the highes passive damage reduction and relies on its ability to take higher spikes without the need to mitigate them with dcd's.

Guardian/Juggernaut: This class is a mix between VG/PT and Shad/Sin. It has a higher passive damage reduction than Sins, but a lower DR then VG/PT. It has some dcd's with a short duration but also short cooldowns, but it's more difficult to use them properly. Guardians/Juggernauts have a medium number of defensive cooldowns (5), but their usefulness is debatable.

So, the case we see here is that with an increasing number of defensive cooldowns passive mitigation decreases. By adding new defensive cooldowns we would disrupt this kind of balance. In my opinion the way to improve Vanguards/Powertech should not go with adding a dcd but with improving the passive mitigation. We can add some bonus percentages for all stats if necessary. The other option would be to increase the usefulness of the existing dcds. But we must not consider adding defensive use on existing abilites and we must not add a new dcd.

My suggestion in this case would be the following:
Explosive Fuel/Combat Focus now grants 50% (up from 35%) defense chance. (This is mainly to give PT/VG a more reliable option for Brontes NiM to deal with spheres)
Kolto Overload/Adrenalin Rush now triggers if the players health is below 50% (up from 30%). Healing-value of each tick is increase bei 50%.
(passive) defense chances bonus (for all damage/attack types) by Ion Cell is increased by 5% (don't know what the current value is)
(passive) damage reduction bonus by Ion Cell is increase by 2%

With these changes, PT/VG would still not be on par with Shadow/Sin but it would finally be able to pull better performances in fights where Shadows/Sins are currently the best option (I'm looking for Brontes NiM here).
I'd also recommend to have a look into Guardian/Juggernaut. In my opinion, they can also bear a slight buff. It's very hard to find a boss fight where you prefer a Guardian over a shadow tank.

Curious what 4 abilities you are considering a cool down for Vanguards? Reactive Shield, Battle Focus, and if your feeling generous....adrenaline rush. I wouldn't call Riot gas or Shoulder cannon a cool down.
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Exocor's Avatar


Exocor
07.24.2018 , 06:31 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by GhOsTPrOz View Post
Curious what 4 abilities you are considering a cool down for Vanguards? Reactive Shield, Battle Focus, and if your feeling generous....adrenaline rush. I wouldn't call Riot gas or Shoulder cannon a cool down.
The four abilites you named are pretty much the defensive cooldowns I was talking about. All of them have a use, even if they are difficult to use and don't have a big effect. I also count blade-bliz/mad dash, endure pain and force potency/recklessness as defensive cooldowns, even though they are not very strong.

For the use of Riot Gas I can provide an example: Styrak NiM final burn (Styrak-Burn after the Kell Dragon is killed). The tanking tank is stunned, so his defense stats won't help him mitigating Styraks attacks. Riot Gas/Oil Slick reduces Accuracy and leads to Styrak missing his very painful attacks. Due to its short cooldown, Riot Gas would be ready even if it is used as a dcd during the Kell Dragon-burn.
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TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
07.24.2018 , 08:33 PM | #9
Here's the biggest issue. The Merc/Comm has better defenses than the PT/VG. Most of those defenses when they were bestowed should of gone to the PT, plain and simple.

Responsive Safeguards, Kolto overload, and Responsive Safeguards.

These 3 should of gone to the PT. Nuff said.
Pretty, so what do we blow up first? -Wraith Squadron Motto
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JowyBlight's Avatar


JowyBlight
07.25.2018 , 03:37 AM | #10
A lot of people have different suggestions about How to improve PT/VG tanks. I think we can all agree they deserve a little bit more love and tlc. Maybe in 6.0
Ferid: Revanchist, Dread Master, and Gatecrasher ~ Vanguard Tank <Crimson Sky>