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Nerf Denova?


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Anyone else think this place is really hard on story mode? I guess its all about understanding the mechanic, but realy seems way to hard. We, among other guilds on our server cant get past the first boss, even though we had a few 10% wipes. Most of our members are full columi/rakata geared too, so how can casual guilds get past the damage the first boss fight does, our healers cant keep up. Edited by stiksen
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We had sorc and merc healers and killed in on story mode in 6 attempts. We are mostly full rakata. We never seen this fight before, only read tactics on mmo mechanics. We do 2-3 raiding nights a week. This fight is perfectly fine tuned. So just try to analyze what keeping you form a kill. Most of the damage can be avoided, you doing something wrong.
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Good.

 

Working as intended

 

I am not so certain. If only 10% of players or less are able to do the new ops content (and Flashpoint for that matter) then it likely will be re-tuned to something more do-able by the average player. After all the average player is the majority of the Bioware SWTOR paying customers. Way it goes for better or worst usually.

Edited by Ewgal
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The first boss is hard, but it is doable if everyone pays attention to the tank swaps and stays out of the avoidable damage. My guild did it on 16 man story mode with most people in columi / rakata and at least one person in columi and worse (he had a lvl 27 green item...).

 

We made sure the ranged dps stayed on Zorn, and stood far enough away from him to not get hit by his dots and stuff, while the melee stayed on Toth and only backed off when he did his berserk jump smash thing, as it hits a lot harder than the other jump smashes. When the red circles show up, you get out of them. The tanks switch every time Toth jumps to Zorn and debuffs the Zorn tank.

 

On story mode, Zorn and Toth require your tanks to be coordinated, your dps to know how to position, and everyone to know how to avoid the giant red circles. DPS is not even much of an issue.

 

On hard mode, it's pretty much the same, but DPS is much more of an issue, and bad positioning by dps is punished by instant death.

 

These fights don't need to be nerfed, people just need to get better at the game / get better gear.

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Guilds did inform BW after testing, that although they loved the fight, they felt it was a bit too hard for story mode. But maybe BW wanna see for themselves how the rest of the playerbase finds the boss, whether they struggle for long or not. They did change certain mechanics and increase enrage timer to make it easier.

 

I won't be surprised if it does get nerfed in future ( just this fight, the rest seem more forgiving). But in general they stepped up the difficulty a little,but I do think its reasonable. They also don't want to make it too easy that it becomes boring, and also makes the jump from story to hm too big. Since believe it or not, even casual guilds like to do story and then progress and try their hand at HM.

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It either needs nerfed or raiding for "casuals" is over in this game.

 

Not everyone considers wiping all night trying to learn the dance steps as fun. Many will come into this place wipe a half a dozen times and just quit raiding.

 

Then when it's down to 5% of the population raiding it won't make sense to devote a bunch of devs to that content.

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We're still less than a week into the new content. I'd hold out a little with the nerf cries until we have a better feel for the thing.

 

I agree that the healer nerfs probably contribute a lot to the enhanced difficulty.

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It either needs nerfed or raiding for "casuals" is over in this game.

 

Not everyone considers wiping all night trying to learn the dance steps as fun. Many will come into this place wipe a half a dozen times and just quit raiding.

 

Then when it's down to 5% of the population raiding it won't make sense to devote a bunch of devs to that content.

 

The fight is not hard at all.

 

You can't just go in and pewpew, kill, loot.

 

You need to learn the mechanics and how to deal with them properly.

 

If you can't do that it's not because you are casual, it's because you either don't care enough to try and be good or you can't be good.

 

The mechanics aren't hard, there is no "dance" as you put it.

 

The fight has been severely nerfed in multiple ways on the PTS since it was first released and I killed it in every form.

 

There is about 1/3 the incoming damage it had when it was originally on the pts, it has a minute longer enrage timer, it is way more relaxed.

 

Just because you couldn't beat it by trying to brute force your way through it doesn't mean it can't be beaten.

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You need to learn the mechanics and how to deal with them properly.

 

And what about those people who have no desire to do that?

 

The mechanics aren't hard, there is no "dance" as you put it.

 

The dance as I put it is the learning the mechanics and how to deal with them.

 

The fight has been severely nerfed in multiple ways on the PTS since it was first released and I killed it in every form.

 

Good for you?

 

What does this have to do with the people I am talking about?

 

There is about 1/3 the incoming damage it had when it was originally on the pts, it has a minute longer enrage timer, it is way more relaxed.

 

Once again, so what?

 

Just because you couldn't beat it by trying to brute force your way through it doesn't mean it can't be beaten.

 

When did I say I couldn't beat it or that it's unbeatable?

 

I said that there is a large portion of the playerbase that will not find this kind of content fun. Your response seems to be that you like it and L2PLAY. Although hardly a surprise response but it it completely ignores the problem.

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And it begins in earnest.

 

I've posted in a few other posts about this. People are braving the forums and the ridicule they will encounter because as many have honestly pointed out. This may be a bit much for story mode. It will only get worse.

 

Give casual raiders the difficulty of EV/KP on normal then pull the rug out and make them be aware of actual mechanics. Bad move Bioware when you made it sound at G summit that story would be 'even easier'. They had better clarify their stance in an official memo if this is the intended difficutly for story mode or like someone above said casuals and puggers will stop raiding and possibly unsub.

 

/popcorn (gonna be great forum fun just like first month of Cataclysm when I predicted the same thing) Makes for great reading! :D

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It is sort of hard to be called "story mode", but then the loot in there is really good as well. I think if they ever decide to nerf it, it'll have to be after nightmare comes out. I'm not sure it needs any nerfing though. I cleared the place tonight, and every fight was just all about learning the tactics. There wasn't any insanely intense healing needed, or difficult enrage timers, or anything like that. You just need the raid to understand the mechanics. We made mistakes and wiped several times, and we were fairly well geared, but it all came down to just knowing the tactics, as it should. Once we had them sorted out, and people made less mistakes, the bosses were really easy. If even guilds are having trouble with the first boss on your server, well.. you have pretty poor guilds. It was an incredibly easy fight. So easy and boring that I actually had to think real hard to remember what that fight was.

 

I will admit that the last boss might be a bit overtuned for pugs. There's a pretty big dps-check in there, though it can be helped with some well-timed stuns. But I don't want the place to be nerfed yet. I want pugs to experience the instance as it is, and know the feeling of downing a hard boss. Casual guilds should definitely be able to beat every boss in there, no question. I think the name "story mode" is quite dumb, because it's not like you go in there to just watch some cinematics. If one likes story and doesn't like raiding.. I suggest youtube. Arguing that even people that don't like raiding and don't want to learn encounters should be able to beat it seems really stupid, but I guess that's bioware's fault for coming up with "story mode." If it was still just normal mode people wouldn't make this argument.. or at least it'd be easier to dismiss it.

Edited by Boissi
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We went straight into 16-man hardmode and didn't get the first bosses down but I don't think it needs -severely- nerfed. Tone down the raid damage a bit and make that stupid rock-throw you need to break the berserk NOT TARGET THE TANKS and I'd be happy myself.

 

I'm not a fan of gatekeeper bosses myself. I prefer progressive difficulty myself.

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Then they shouldn't be raiding. End of argument.

 

You aren't going to get everything handed to you for free, you have to work for it.

Just a reminder that WoW went in this direction.

 

3 Million Unsubs later, they nerfed the then current raid tier (firelands) HARD, then later released the LFR tool and 3 easy 5-mans that crap epic loot of the item-level needed to hit the final raid raid tier. They also gave people free level-cap characters, mounts, etc if they resubbed. And you got D3 for free if you bought a year-long sub so their numbers wouldn't further decrease.

 

Catering to grognards kills your MMO. Sorry.

Edited by Fabricated
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Just a reminder that WoW went in this direction.

 

3 Million Unsubs later, they released the LFR tool and 3 easy 5-mans that crap epic loot of the item-level needed to hit the final raid raid tier. They also gave people free level-cap characters, mounts, etc if they resubbed. And you got D3 for free if you bought a year-long sub so their numbers wouldn't further decrease.

 

Catering to grognards kills your MMO. Sorry.

 

What he said ^^

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And what about those people who have no desire to do that?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lemme bold that:

 

And what about those people who have no desire to do that?

 

 

Then they shouldn't be raiding.

 

If you have NO desire to learn how a fight works, why in all 9 hells and all 666 plains of the abyss are you playing an MMO? Every single MMO I have played has had fights, while leveling, that you couldn't tank and spank unless you cheated and pulled in a ridiculously overpowered friend to help you. In fact learning how a fight works is the best damn part. Except for the shiny loot.

Edited by Menthro
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In fact learning how a fight works is the best damn part. Except for the shiny loot.

 

AGREED! Please don't dumb this game down. My guild has been trying to get past these 2 knuckleheads and we've gotten REALLY close. Don't nerf this. It doesn't need it.

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And what about those people who have no desire to do that?

 

 

 

The dance as I put it is the learning the mechanics and how to deal with them.

 

 

 

Good for you?

 

What does this have to do with the people I am talking about?

 

 

 

Once again, so what?

 

 

 

When did I say I couldn't beat it or that it's unbeatable?

 

I said that there is a large portion of the playerbase that will not find this kind of content fun. Your response seems to be that you like it and L2PLAY. Although hardly a surprise response but it it completely ignores the problem.

 

 

Its funny but just about every SINGLE game I have ever played both console and PC most always had points where the game started challenging the gamer. Either to just beat the game or to aquire power ups and special rewards. And in those cases those same games make the gamer jump through some major hoops depending on the reward. Why should raiding be ANY different. I get that we don't want the Uber impossible **** for every boss, but come on there has to be a point in the gameplay where the gamer DOES get challenged and proves that he can handle what the game throws at him.

 

The fights aren't that hard on story mode and pretty predictable even yes the first boss. Take a look at your raid and figure out who is doing what wrong and fix it. Nine times out of ten if the people griping about raid difficulty just did this, they would find themselves succeeding alot more.

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