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Nerf Denova?


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Here's my take on this. I'm not going to engage in the pissing and moaning fights between the hardcore folks vs the casuals...

 

We wrapped up Nightmare KP pretty much the night the servers shut down for 1.2 maintenance. We got Nightmare Soa tonight. And in the last 2 weeks we've worked on story mode EC. Our server currently has 5 or 6 guilds that have downed either all or most of story mode. 2 guilds have 1 boss down on hardmode. Granted, we're a low pop server but that seems too low to me in the grand scheme of things.

 

I'm a healer. What I'm seeing isn't that the mechanics on these fights are over the top. I'm seeing that the fights themselves are unforgiving to people that are not aware of their surroundings. Things that we could heal through in KP/EV (on any difficulty setting) we are unable to necessarily heal through in this new ops. I'm ok with that. Do I like the nerf to healing? Not really... and seeing the content as it stands now I feel that healing should either be un-nerfed (haha) or the dmg on the FIRST BOSS ONLY needs to be nerfed a smidge.

 

Not a lot mind you. Just a little tiny bit. We run a merc/sorc healer combo and we do fairly well with things but that's in full Rakata (or close) and people that are more serious about progression. I can guarantee you the guild we were in previously with the load of casuals will NOT get this first boss down for quite a while. They were already frustrated with some of the harder difficulty level content in Tier 1. This will make them not want to play. They were already at that point going into the patch, and to be perfectly frank... I haven't seen many of them log in since that first week after 1.2 went live.

 

Story Mode should give a nice sense of accomplishment when you finish it, not feel like you've been put through the ringer. The average player will not find enjoyment running that operation. And with the healing changes, they won't even have much enjoyment doing nightmare level tier 1 to get the same gear.

 

For the more serious raiders, it's challenging....and we enjoy it. But I am concerned that both the casual guilds and the casual guildies that get to come in here and there to our own raids, will not stick around and continue paying subs if PvE is their thing.

 

rebuff the healers a little, tone down the first boss' damage a smidge and I think a lot more people would be comfortable in there.

 

I WILL say this though... just feedback in general on fights... but I'm REALLY not happy with 2 more fights like Jarg/Sorno where bosses have to die within moments of each other. That's really just kinda boring. Seen it, done it... can we have something new next tier?

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WoW became a huge success when it made all the content and gear accessible.

 

If the game puts high end gear out of the hands of the regular player, do you think they will still play the game?

 

You seem to have selective memory. WOTLK had a net gain of approximately of 500,000 subscribers. That's 11.5 million to 12 million. From 2010 to present, it's dropped down to 10.3. So two expansions dedicated to the casual player has dropped subscriber count by.... 1.2 million. Those 500,000 casuals that joined, probably off on another game. That's just how casual gamers operate. However, that doesn't explain Burning Crusade which brought subscriber count from 8 million to 11.5 million... What did Burning Crusade correct? It completely ignored the QQ-storm and provided a decent challenge to players where even those with time-constraints could, in time, down the same raids as those that farm them.

 

The current issue is.... you want it available to you now.... Getting rid of the challenge and essentially toggling godmode. This basically causes players to burn through content exponentially, at which rate the subscriber account drops considerably because you're "bored." How do I know it'll drop considerably? WOTLK & Cataclysm are your examples. And a fun fact about the spike WOTLK subscribers.... they combined Eastern & Western subscriber counts together.

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I'm a healer. What I'm seeing isn't that the mechanics on these fights are over the top. I'm seeing that the fights themselves are unforgiving to people that are not aware of their surroundings. Things that we could heal through in KP/EV (on any difficulty setting) we are unable to necessarily heal through in this new ops.

 

If you can stand in **** and heal through it, ignore mechanics and such nonesense and you are supposed to wipe. This is not a question of casual. This is a matter of just being bad at the game.

 

The improved visability on effects is almost a guarantee that people will be able to dodge the bullet unless they're half afk.

 

Do I like the nerf to healing? Not really... and seeing the content as it stands now I feel that healing should either be un-nerfed (haha) or the dmg on the FIRST BOSS ONLY needs to be nerfed a smidge.

 

No - not all healing was nerfed, 2 of 3 classes were nerfed and one was even buffed a little. So in retrospect this does hint that there might have been a slight bump in healer balance and you want to revert it?

 

And no to less damage on Toth and Zorn. The 'movment phase' deals not enough damage if anything and healers just didn't fully figure it out yet. For example during Baradium Throw Zorn's tank isn't hit by anything and on HM when the yellow circle is placed on a player the same thing happens - healers have to shift their awareness away from the tanks here. And executing the tank swap quicker is another easy method to reduce the encounter's damage ... use of personal CD for everyone and timing them right ... a new raid means a new phase of learning - otherwise it would be kind of boring.

 

They were already frustrated with some of the harder difficulty level content in Tier 1. This will make them not want to play. They were already at that point going into the patch, and to be perfectly frank... I haven't seen many of them log in since that first week after 1.2 went live.

 

If you exclude the buggy railshot on Jarg & Sorno 16 NMM there is no hard content. Most of the fights are tank and spank with minor adds or movement mechanics.

Mechanic wise Karagga and Bonethrasher are the most complex, but at least Karagga is very undertuned when it comes to actual numbers.

 

Story Mode should give a nice sense of accomplishment when you finish it, not feel like you've been put through the ringer. The average player will not find enjoyment running that operation. And with the healing changes, they won't even have much enjoyment doing nightmare level tier 1 to get the same gear.

 

The average player seems to just play bad and not be able to communicate, is that what the average player is?

Because designing content for this kind of player will destroy the most loyal playerbase while securing the majority one. Which will kill the game once the next interesting title will hit the stores.

 

I WILL say this though... just feedback in general on fights... but I'm REALLY not happy with 2 more fights like Jarg/Sorno where bosses have to die within moments of each other. That's really just kinda boring. Seen it, done it... can we have something new next tier?

 

In order to promote fights with two tanks your options are very limited. If a fight does not have either hard hitting adds, forced tank swaps or multiple bosses you won't want to bring more than one tank and are better off with more healers or damage dealers. Options here are limited. They always were and always will be, since it's the very basic mechanic of a 'holy trinity MMO'.

Looking at the fights (for 8man) thus far:

EV: Robot 1 tank / Gahrj 1 tank / ... everything 1 tank, wich leads to not enough tanks for flashpoints and other content.

KP: Bonethrasher 0 tanks / Jarg & Sorno 2 Tanks for NMM / Crusher 1 Tank + class with taunt for adds / Fabricator 1 Tank + 3 Healers or 2 Tanks or 1 Tank and right-left combination / Karagga 1 Tank

EC: Everything needs two tanks, because Bioware always wanted a 2/2/4 setup - that's also why there are enrage timers everywhere ... so you can't just bring more healers

 

On a side note ... next big end boss will be 6 bosses at once btw.

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If the game puts high end gear out of the hands of the regular player, do you think they will still play the game?

 

The regular player seems to have not heard of movement, gear optimization and has no wipe resistance whatsoever.

Running flashpoints with alts makes this very apperant ... one wipe anywhere and someone rage quits? Relly? More often then not it's their own fault. Or actually putting in 3 minutes of research to figure out what stats you need and realizing that just having the highest available tier of gear isn't enough. The information is all there and it's easily accessed if you stop and think for a moment.

 

Come to think of WoW ... for one the golden ages was Burning Crusade and not the casual (on these forums this seems to equal the bad) crowd, but the dedicated one are the loyal players. Increase in overall online gaming and gold selling has quite an effect on # of subscribers here. The inclusion of LFR had quite the negative impact on subscribers after seeing that being bad is almost rewarded by this feature.

 

Yes, there should be an easy raid and I support raids having multiple difficulty settings, but none of them should give away gear for no effort.

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After reading this thread and all the other threads, I've decided that there's no point trying to convince these bad players to improve their play to actually kill the bosses - because they can't be bothered. This is why PvP is nice, nobody can complain they just die a lot.

 

They don't want to become better, they want to content to get to their level so they can kill it with their likewise bad PuG, and get all the nice loot so that they don't have any reason to run the raid again other than gear up and then wait till next content.

 

I agree with what others said, they will get bored, but that's life. If they want Story mode to literally be a walk in the park,then may aswell let them, atleast they'll pay the bills to generate more high quality raids.

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After reading this thread and all the other threads, I've decided that there's no point trying to convince these bad players to improve their play to actually kill the bosses - because they can't be bothered. This is why PvP is nice, nobody can complain they just die a lot.

 

They don't want to become better, they want to content to get to their level so they can kill it with their likewise bad PuG, and get all the nice loot so that they don't have any reason to run the raid again other than gear up and then wait till next content.

 

I agree with what others said, they will get bored, but that's life. If they want Story mode to literally be a walk in the park,then may aswell let them, atleast they'll pay the bills to generate more high quality raids.

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I propose a new mode.

 

Make current story mode "Normal mode" then make a story mode where you just get the cinematics, how's that? I mean why even fight the encounters if you have no desire to beat them? Just watch the movies.

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They don't want to become better,

 

Pretty much, glad at least one person gets it.

 

Some people play games/sport competitively and strive to get better others just play to have fun and careless about being the "best". For example I play softball once a year at our family reunion, nobody is trying to be a pro softball player. We aren't practicing 5 nights a week, we aren't reading softball strategy guides, heck we probably don't even know all the right rules. But we go out and have fun and enjoy the day with family.

 

Sorry, but video games aren't all "serious bidness" to many players, to many players it's just a game.

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Pretty much, glad at least one person gets it.

 

Some people play games/sport competitively and strive to get better others just play to have fun and careless about being the "best". For example I play softball once a year at our family reunion, nobody is trying to be a pro softball player. We aren't practicing 5 nights a week, we aren't reading softball strategy guides, heck we probably don't even know all the right rules. But we go out and have fun and enjoy the day with family.

 

Sorry, but video games aren't all "serious bidness" to many players, to many players it's just a game.

 

That's because it is. It's just a game. A game people play to be entertained and have fun. Regardless if you're a hardcore, general raider or casual. It's all for fun.

 

I would like to have an acknowledgement from data mining by the dev's to see if the encounters are tuned inappropriately for group makeups and go from there. Anything else that is written by players is just conjecture and hearsay, most have been lies and embellished accomplishments

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Sorry but where did this "entitlement" to be able to walk though raiding come from? Before Wrath in WoW you HAD TO BE A GOOD PLAYER to clear any raid. Now people want to have the ability of a drunken monkey playing on acid and still clear all content. Sorry but where is the fun in walking into a raid and never wiping? Raiding should be hard it is the END GAME it is not PvP where just showing up gets you free loot, in raiding you must EARN it though teamwork and good play.

 

 

Personally i hope they make things harder so that there is a gear gap in the good PvEers and the bad ones. Only the people who are "sub-par" want easy mode raiding. I am well aware that it is content everyone wants to see, so instead of say "i am bad and can;t do it nerf it for me" become a better player or a better group and conquer the content.

 

The "entitlement" comes from purchasing the game. If you buy a single player game, the reasonable expectation is that the player can experience all of the story in one shape or another. Online MMORPGs have found they are no different. There is a large portion of players out there that just do not like not being able to at least see the content that was installed on their computer's hard drive when they purchased the game.

 

Note: I'm not talking about paying a subscription fee. I'm talking about the retail purchase of the initial game. For some reason, modern MMOs are beginning to connect the dots that spending millions of dollars designing a raid zone, like Explosive Conflict, just is not financially feasible if only a very small number of players actually get to zone into it.

 

If the general playerbase perceives that they are not hardcore enough to even try a raid zone, then that content patch has no draw for them. If this continues to happen, eventually that player (or group of players) will get fed up and leave for another game developer that will feed them content. This is exactly why another game has lost almost 3 million subscribers in the last 12 months or so. This is also why that game developer has made a complete 180 degree turn and released the easiest raid content to-date including an automated tool to try to put groups together for said raids.

 

There is no worse feeling for a developer than for their audience to have no desire to even try out their content.

Edited by Raeln
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Anyone else think this place is really hard on story mode? I guess its all about understanding the mechanic, but realy seems way to hard. We, among other guilds on our server cant get past the first boss, even though we had a few 10% wipes. Most of our members are full columi/rakata geared too, so how can casual guilds get past the damage the first boss fight does, our healers cant keep up.

 

 

im a sorc and i can keep up. go get more rakata gear then go. this is tier 2 gearing, We like the challenge

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it had more growth when Raiding was gated then when they didn't. During BC they has 120% population increase during wrath they had 1%. Which way made their company grow more now?

 

The population did not grow in BC due to PvE. Access your own memory banks, most people were enamored with the Arena and PvP or do you not remember the mountains of QQ about how "PvP stole mah raiders" and "the Goblin in the Black Tuxedo" back in the day?

 

There were also large ordeals with those gating mechanics. The key attunements were quickly removed for BT (relatively speaking). On top of that, only an abysmally small number of players experienced Sunwell.

 

Regarding PvE, BC served as a great example of how to not make a dime off PvE content. I fully believe that if not for the okay PvP systems that were in place during BC - a great many subscribers would have left. It may come as a surprise to you, but most raiders just do not enjoy banging their head against a wall and being restricted by an arbitrary mechanic, like all the raid needing to earn an individual key just to be able to zone into the next zone.

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Where did these only "10%" of the playerbase can raid and complete story mode come from? I think most of you are full of **** and lying to prove a point. If that were really happening BW would have already tweaked it. But it's not, the majority of players are finding the raiding engaging and decently balanced. Those of you that fall under that bar need to do some research. And no its not necessary you can ask in game, you can get with a better guild, many things you can do. But sacrificing 10-15 minutes of your time to read about the fights or your class wont kill you. Learn to be nerds.

 

Most casual gamers arent sticking around because they're casual. They bounce from game to game because they want to find the perfect one balanced around them. But the game is made of many different types of players, and they have to cater to all... when you know the casuals will try it and get hooked and get better, or just leave in a few months anyways, why base the game around them?

 

You certainly do not describe my casual friends.

 

I have several casual friends that won't even try TOR yet because they feel they still have some things left to do in WoW.

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You seem to have selective memory. WOTLK had a net gain of approximately of 500,000 subscribers. That's 11.5 million to 12 million. From 2010 to present, it's dropped down to 10.3. So two expansions dedicated to the casual player has dropped subscriber count by.... 1.2 million. Those 500,000 casuals that joined, probably off on another game. That's just how casual gamers operate. However, that doesn't explain Burning Crusade which brought subscriber count from 8 million to 11.5 million... What did Burning Crusade correct? It completely ignored the QQ-storm and provided a decent challenge to players where even those with time-constraints could, in time, down the same raids as those that farm them.

 

The current issue is.... you want it available to you now.... Getting rid of the challenge and essentially toggling godmode. This basically causes players to burn through content exponentially, at which rate the subscriber account drops considerably because you're "bored." How do I know it'll drop considerably? WOTLK & Cataclysm are your examples. And a fun fact about the spike WOTLK subscribers.... they combined Eastern & Western subscriber counts together.

 

From a business standpoint - maintaining an even subscriber count (no significant gain or loss) is a lot better than losing almost 3 million subscriptions during Cataclysm, which incidentally is where Blizzard tried to do what Bioware just did with Explosive Conflict.

 

I'm sure you'll just keep arguing. I seen a lot of people leave over Blizzard's "raising the difficulty bar" in Cataclysm. Call them what you want, but they are no longer paying money to Blizzard.

 

Do you want the same for TOR? Personally, I don't. Keep in mind, we're talking about storymode here, not hardmode.

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From a business standpoint - maintaining an even subscriber count (no significant gain or loss) is a lot better than losing almost 3 million subscriptions during Cataclysm, which incidentally is where Blizzard tried to do what Bioware just did with Explosive Conflict.

 

I'm sure you'll just keep arguing. I seen a lot of people leave over Blizzard's "raising the difficulty bar" in Cataclysm. Call them what you want, but they are no longer paying money to Blizzard.

 

Do you want the same for TOR? Personally, I don't. Keep in mind, we're talking about storymode here, not hardmode.

 

 

Storymode is on par with NM KP/EV It is ment to be the next step. no free comms

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im a sorc and i can keep up. go get more rakata gear then go. this is tier 2 gearing, We like the challenge

 

So your answer is to go get more of the same gear that the bosses he wants to kill drop?

 

What, at that point, is the carrot on the end of the stick to draw him toward completing EC on storymode? You said he needs all the same gear that drops (excluding the handful of BH commendations that drop). So after he clears EC one time to finish the storymode quest - what reason is there for him to run EC storymode again besides just for BH commendations?

Edited by Raeln
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im a sorc and i can keep up. go get more rakata gear then go. this is tier 2 gearing, We like the challenge

 

I agree with this statement, (because I like the challenge) but it's also what bugs me.

 

Explosive Conflict (story mode) requires rakata (ideally at least half of your gear being rakata), but drops rakata, or coms for rakata equivalent pieces.

 

There's no Carrot. Story mode just feels like something that's there to train you for HM so you can actually get upgrades.

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Are you insinuating that people should be forced to clear nightmare mode EV/KP before attempting storymode EC?

 

Forced?

 

I wouldn't say forced. I would say say though that 4/5 in EV HM, and 4/5 KP HM can be done in your sleep. (Soa and Fabricator being the only remotely difficult challenges.)

 

Aside from Soa and his RNG Buggy nature, I'd consider the rest of it easier to do than Story Mode EC.

Edited by Freeborne
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Forced?

 

I wouldn't say forced. I would say say though that 4/5 in EV HM, and 4/5 KP HM can be done in your sleep. (Soa and Fabricator being the only remotely difficult challenges.)

 

Aside from Soa and his RNG Buggy nature, I'd consider the rest of it easier to do than Story Mode EC.

 

 

exactly, Denova is made for the raiders who spent the time gearing up for the past 2 months. You cant be a fresh 50 and jump in. You also need raid awareness. We have cleared denova twice within a 3 hour period on normal. and spent about 2 hours wiping on the first boss in HM (I wasnt there so not sure why) but if i could just run into Denova and beat it first try why would i resubscribe to a game for months?

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Forced?

 

I wouldn't say forced. I would say say though that 4/5 in EV HM, and 4/5 KP HM can be done in your sleep. (Soa and Fabricator being the only remotely difficult challenges.)

 

Aside from Soa and his RNG Buggy nature, I'd consider the rest of it easier to do than Story Mode EC.

 

It doesn't matter if you consider it easier or not.

 

Are you saying that in order to follow the storymode progression path, you must switch to the hardmode path first?

 

In other words, are you saying that EC is not intended to be cleared with Columi geared raiders? (which is the gear awarded by storymode EV/KP.)

Edited by Raeln
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exactly, Denova is made for the raiders who spent the time gearing up for the past 2 months. You cant be a fresh 50 and jump in. You also need raid awareness. We have cleared denova twice within a 3 hour period on normal. and spent about 2 hours wiping on the first boss in HM (I wasnt there so not sure why) but if i could just run into Denova and beat it first try why would i resubscribe to a game for months?

 

I don't know, because you don't win all the gear you need from the first lockout? Well, not unless you are a smuggler in our ops group, anyway.

 

We're talking storymode here. It's been out for a week now and you've cleared it twice? Interesting.

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I don't know, because you don't win all the gear you need from the first lockout? Well, not unless you are a smuggler in our ops group, anyway.

 

We're talking storymode here. It's been out for a week now and you've cleared it twice? Interesting.

 

it hit on a Thursday. resets Tuesdays

its been out for 1.5 weeks now. :D

 

and I feel the same way about gear we have a sniper who gets it all. But yes you need to progress. MMO's are a progression game were you spend the time to get the rewards, and most MMO PVE players enjoy a challenge even in storymode. If you played another MMO you would know about countless wiping rinse and repeating.

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it hit on a Thursday. resets Tuesdays

its been out for 1.5 weeks now. :D

 

and I feel the same way about gear we have a sniper who gets it all. But yes you need to progress. MMO's are a progression game were you spend the time to get the rewards, and most MMO PVE players enjoy a challenge even in storymode. If you played another MMO you would know about countless wiping rinse and repeating.

 

I disagree that most MMO PvE players even desire a challenge in storymode at all. When you leave the small circle of hardcore players, you begin to dive through a very large segment of the playerbase that is more concerned with just having things to do with friends than they are about how difficult those things are to do.

 

Note: I'm not saying that every storymode boss needs to be a tank n' spank faceroll. I'm not. I can tell you though, Bioware is not going to see 38% of level 50 players hitting up each new storymode raid if they stay with how storymode EC is right now.

 

My current guestimate is that by the time 1.3 hits, Bioware will be lucky if 40% of EV/KP raider population finishes EC storymode - just my opinion.

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Frankly this thread needs to die. No dev has responded to say 'were gonna nerf it' or 'were gonna leave it as it is.'

There have been many great points people have made to consider, but as stated EVERYONE cannot be satisfied, and finding said middle ground is difficult.

 

After a lot of.thought, Story EC needs nerf. I would probably leave 3rd boss as he is, and maybe reduce damage from aoe in last boss, but 1st and 2nd need nerf.

 

It doesn't just.need to be do able, it needs to.be easy. Unfortunately this will lead to amassive gap between story and hm, but that's life. People need to understand that Story shouldn't even entertain remotely hardcore guilds. It should be designed for pugs and super bad (i refuse to say casual = bad, because its not) guilds.

 

And hm and nightmare will be the 2 progression difficulties.

 

Yes there are downsides to this, but its the only rational way to please the majority. Because bad players or lazy players as they're called refuse to become better, they just wanna have fun without the challenge. like Simnd farmville

I don't mean to insult anyone, just fed up of reading this stuff a million times.

 

This is the only reasonable method where everyone can raid, and hardcore progression still exists. While also keeping the devs focused on creating high quality ops for us.

And yes this is coming from a semi hardcore raider who used to be hardcore in woW, and due to well lack of time and lack of hardcore guilds on server.

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