Jump to content

Operative suvivability?


Ttoilleekul

Recommended Posts

Ok, my first post here, but I've been playing for 1.5 years. By no means am I the best player around, but I'm no slouch either. I main a 258 Guardian skank with full DPS stats in PVP. However on the following occasion I was playing my Vigilance Guardian (252 with 236 augs).

 

I'm really not one to jump to accusations of cheating and use of hacks, I've had accusations of cheating levelled at me, for example when I defeated two Assassins in a 2v1. A LOT of accusations of cheating can be answered by skill. But every now and then something happens that I cannot explain.

 

The scenario in question is Civil War, with a 248 Operative trying to cap vs 4 players. One of those players was me. A common situation, and I grant that done well, a skilled Operative can cap vs 4 players who don't know where to position themselves. But, I digress....

 

The operative in question was caught in a chain stun, at which point of course the 4 of us proceed to DPS him. He lost only 50% of his HP, before he scampered around the turret platform. My question is how can he lose only 50%? No matter the skill of the 4 other players, when the situation is reversed, my vigilance guardian is dead in seconds. In fact in the very same match a few minutes later I was 1v2 against 2 Operatives, once they chain stunned me my health bar vanished. Ofc I survived momentarily by using FD, but I was still dead.

 

So, I'm not accusing of cheating. I'm willing to be educated. How do Operatives do this? Since it is a common occurrence. In 1v1 I grant they are formidable, but I have a Ruffian Scoundrel too, and I can see no way to give them this kind of survivability when chain stunned.

 

Perhaps someone who knows more about the class could explain it to me?

 

Please though, if you reply by saying its all about skill and understanding of abilities, then can you actually give me a break down of how? Rather than just saying its skill. I'm quite happy to accept that this is not cheating if someone can explain to me how it's done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 65
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

did you notice and 'reflect' or 'dodge' fly texts?

 

Must admit I wasn't looking for them, so I can't say. As I understand the class, any Damage reduction is minimal to non- existent while stunned? For example Guardian skanks can be specced to 30% damage reduction while stunned, and can activate Focused Defence while stunned. I'm no Scoundrel / Operative expert, but when I inspect my Scoundrel I see no equivalent damage reduction while stunned

.

Edited by Ttoilleekul
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Must admit I wasn't looking for them, so I can't say. As I understand the class, any Damage reduction is minimal to non- existent while stunned? For example Guardian skanks can be specced to 30% damage reduction while stunned, and can activate Focused Defence while stunned. I'm no Scoundrel / Operative expert, but when I inspect my Scoundrel I see no equivalent damage reduction while stunned

.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Must admit I wasn't looking for them, so I can't say. As I understand the class, any Damage reduction is minimal to non- existent while stunned? For example Guardian skanks can be specced to 30% damage reduction while stunned, and can activate Focused Defence while stunned. I'm no Scoundrel / Operative expert, but when I inspect my Scoundrel I see no equivalent damage reduction while stunned

.

 

If Scoundrel has 2 Stacks of Probe on then that’s 6% DR already, if they also have Pugnacity active that’s another 20%, if they have adrenal on then that’s another 15%, if they are specced into Ruffian when their shield drops they get 15% DR also.

 

If all these are active that’s: 56% DR, even when stunned

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Probably a combination of these things?

 

1. Operative Pugnacity/Stim Booster gives 20% DR for 15 seconds before he was stunned... assuming the utility is taken (and it very very often is).

2. Warzone Adrenal gives 15% DR.

3. Maybe he had Shield Probe up.

4. The 3 DPS with you might have been really bad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

damage reduction exists, many players do really really bad damage

 

also "reduced damage taken" hacks aren't really a thing

 

Op could have popped Evasion before you stunned him and thats 3 sec of dodging all dmg towards him.
you cannot dodge attacks while hard stunned in swtor
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Op could have popped Evasion before you stunned him and thats 3 sec of dodging all dmg towards him.

 

No. If you get stunned when you pop evasion, you don't dodge any damage at all. Being stunned reduces dodge chance to 0% for the duration of the stun, that's why you always stun people during deflection, saberward, evasion, etc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, as expected I had considered the possibility that he had conveniently popped all his utility self heals plus 2 stacks of probe right before he knew he was likely to get chain stunned... but this still leaves me with a doubt.... as I said I main a Guardian skank with 15k armour rating. In anticipation of the same scenario happening to me, I have often popped Saber Ward + Warding call in order to survive such situations, but even with all that tankiness I suffer massive HP loss against even the worst DPS players in the game. Say what you like about Scoundrels / Operatives, they do not have the same damage reduction as a Defence Guardian, I'm at 52% damage reduction before even popping any defences. They have better survivability yes, but not better damage reduction.

 

In fact in my time playing, the only scenario I know for a certain can always walk away from that situation is when I am tanking for a good healer. A good skank and a good healer can easily hold off 4 decent DPS players in WZ. I actually find it hilarious watching them try to focus my healer and not managing it. (4 extremely good DPS players will eventually win - but that's a different topic).. so... as I said I hate to make accusations of cheating, and I really want there to be an explanation for this.... but that sort of damage reduction looked a lot like my damage reduction when I am teamed with a healer. Which leads me to ask the question... can we absolutely rule out a healing bot?

 

In defence of the class I will admit that it is always Operatives trying to cap turrets vs 4 players, no other class can do it and you never see other classes trying. So yes, they have amazing survivability. But usually once caught in a chain stun they need to stealth out or die. Actually seeing one walk away was like.. huh??? I mean I've been 1v1 with Operatives and taken more than 50% of their HP by double stunning on my own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If a scoundrel is evading 4 people then they are certainly popping some cooldowns to make it happen. Guessing the stuns were maybe poorly timed? Need to start chaining stuns when the scoundrel gets low on health. If you stun too early and white bar them they just scamper out of line of sight and heal up.

 

When I PVP on my scoundrel, I do not fear for my safety and will engage large groups on my own. The class is amazing at what it does. I trust if I keep the dots and hots rolling that I will outlive anything that tries to kill me.

 

Had

like the OP described where I survived a 1vs6 that no other class could and I still eventually capped the node.

 

Is the survivability too strong? I don't play scrapper much, but it seems like it's in an okay place right now. I'd say for ruffian it certainly feels like it's too strong, but ruffian doesn't have any real dangerous killing power. The spec needs the extra defences right now to compete in PVP. For example, the only chance ruffian has when trading blows with a marauder is that eventually, the ruffian will outlive the mara. Normally by the time ruffian's ramp-up is done and it's time to crank out brutal shots, the mara has got in a solid 4-5 gcds worth of damage and the ruffian is approaching half dead before they can even start to deal damage.

 

So, if you drop some of what makes scoundrels so strong then you end up with a result that makes them beyond weak. As it is right now, the class is balanced to win fights of attrition. Their damage in PVP is below that of other classes but it should be because they can live through almost anything. They can punch way above their weight in terms of survival. If you take that away, consider what you are left with. It would become a broken class for PVP because at a competitive level the class could not compete with the output and defences of other classes. Why pick a scoundrel that you need to play perfectly when you could facetank on a merc and still get quality damage?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If a scoundrel is evading 4 people then they are certainly popping some cooldowns to make it happen. Guessing the stuns were maybe poorly timed? Need to start chaining stuns when the scoundrel gets low on health. If you stun too early and white bar them they just scamper out of line of sight and heal up.

 

When I PVP on my scoundrel, I do not fear for my safety and will engage large groups on my own. The class is amazing at what it does. I trust if I keep the dots and hots rolling that I will outlive anything that tries to kill me.

 

Had

like the OP described where I survived a 1vs6 that no other class could and I still eventually capped the node.

 

Is the survivability too strong? I don't play scrapper much, but it seems like it's in an okay place right now. I'd say for ruffian it certainly feels like it's too strong, but ruffian doesn't have any real dangerous killing power. The spec needs the extra defences right now to compete in PVP. For example, the only chance ruffian has when trading blows with a marauder is that eventually, the ruffian will outlive the mara. Normally by the time ruffian's ramp-up is done and it's time to crank out brutal shots, the mara has got in a solid 4-5 gcds worth of damage and the ruffian is approaching half dead before they can even start to deal damage.

 

So, if you drop some of what makes scoundrels so strong then you end up with a result that makes them beyond weak. As it is right now, the class is balanced to win fights of attrition. Their damage in PVP is below that of other classes but it should be because they can live through almost anything. They can punch way above their weight in terms of survival. If you take that away, consider what you are left with. It would become a broken class for PVP because at a competitive level the class could not compete with the output and defences of other classes. Why pick a scoundrel that you need to play perfectly when you could facetank on a merc and still get quality damage?

 

Your moment in that video is exactly like I saw. You seemed to be at 75/80% HP when you were chain stunned and then you were close to death after the stuns wore off. So I guess if you aren't using a healing bot then that's just how strong the class is.

 

But don't you think its somewhat overpowered? As you say yourself no other class could entertain the idea of going 1v6 on a turret. Again as you say you can outlive any class in a 1v1 scenario which mean ultimately you can beat any class in a 1v1 scenario too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a fair bit of luck that he survived that. At the end of his stun, he had like 2k health left, then he hit Dodge + adrenal + medpac, then roll healed away with white bar. The fact that this opponents weren't able to kill him while he was stunned tells me at least half of them were trash. Edited by Rion_Starkiller
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a fair bit of luck that he survived that. At the end of his stun, he had like 2k health left, then he hit Dodge + adrenal + medpac, then roll healed away with white bar. The fact that this opponents weren't able to kill him while he was stunned tells me at least half of them were trash.

 

Even still, if that happens to any other class they are still dead. He may well have survived the chain stun because the six players around him could not DPS him well enough, but without one utility self heal being on a very low cooldown, and the other defences also being on a low cooldown, he would have died very soon after the stun.

 

If Operatives / Scoundrels are to be nerfed (which I think they need to be since no other class can entertain the idea of trying to cap vs 6 players!) then the way to do it would be to increase their defensive and utility healing cooldowns. That way they would still be formidable in 1v1, but wouldn't make a mockery of other classes in a tactical WZ situation.

Edited by Ttoilleekul
Link to comment
Share on other sites

He survived with 2k health. After that, 4 of his enemies ran off knowing he was still alive. This is because players should never fight more than 2v1 at a node, or the other node(s) with fall. Had they stayed, I'm sure he would have died.

 

Scoundrels/Operatives are a skirmisher class. They win battles of attrition, particularly if there is plenty of LOS spots. That particular node on that map is literally the easiest one in the game for a scoundrel/op to hold indefinitely. Don't blame a well played op -- blame the map, and the baddies. :) Two well-played maras could have mopped the floor with his corpse. #nerfmaras

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No I second that Operatives need to be nerfed. I suggest they need their defensive cooldowns increased, then they would still formidable 1v1 but wouldn't be able to go 1v6 at a turret anymore. Its a joke that they can make a mockery of other classes like that. Not other class can even entertain the idea of trying to cap vs 4+ players, yet you see Operatives doing it all the time in regs.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No I second that Operatives need to be nerfed. I suggest they need their defensive cooldowns increased, then they would still formidable 1v1 but wouldn't be able to go 1v6 at a turret anymore. Its a joke that they can make a mockery of other classes like that. Not other class can even entertain the idea of trying to cap vs 4+ players, yet you see Operatives doing it all the time in regs.

 

all operatives collectively nod and cackle maniacaly

 

POST EDIT: so I believe I understand how this topic went south.. "defensive cooldown" in swtor is a term used to describe a defensive skill. the acronym is "dcd" Defensive CoolDown. what you mean to say, is "CoolDown" or, "cd"

Edited by Seterade
Link to comment
Share on other sites

all operatives collectively nod and cackle maniacaly

 

POST EDIT: so I believe I understand how this topic went south.. "defensive cooldown" in swtor is a term used to describe a defensive skill. the acronym is "dcd" Defensive CoolDown. what you mean to say, is "CoolDown" or, "cd"

 

Ok so, cooldowns of defensive abilities increased? Is that more accurate? Of course no one wants their fave class to be nerfed, so I don't 't expect people who main Scoundrels and Operatives in PVP to be happy about potentially being nerfed. But that fact is it has happened before because a class was too strong and so it can happen again. Skanks were nerfed and as a result, while still strong, are not what they used to be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No. If you get stunned when you pop evasion, you don't dodge any damage at all. Being stunned reduces dodge chance to 0% for the duration of the stun, that's why you always stun people during deflection, saberward, evasion, etc

 

I could swear that you can still dodge dmg if you pop evasion just before you get stunned. Interesting info, I'll test this, I've never noticed this on my op and I did get stunned while I had evasion on. Although I dont main op, on, juggs even if they stun you while you have reflect on, you'll still gonna reflect that stun dmg and thats a fact.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I could swear that you can still dodge dmg if you pop evasion just before you get stunned. Interesting info, I'll test this, I've never noticed this on my op and I did get stunned while I had evasion on. Although I dont main op, on, juggs even if they stun you while you have reflect on, you'll still gonna reflect that stun dmg and thats a fact.

 

quick note: all white damage dcds are null while stunned.. however. saber ward has an asorb in it that will still negate damage. its just "absorb" rather than "deflect"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I could swear that you can still dodge dmg if you pop evasion just before you get stunned. Interesting info, I'll test this, I've never noticed this on my op and I did get stunned while I had evasion on. Although I dont main op, on, juggs even if they stun you while you have reflect on, you'll still gonna reflect that stun dmg and thats a fact.

 

I know you know this but it comes to mind that you might see the reflect thing (Back at Ya! in the legendary tier). it's tied to the dodge ability but it's a straight reflect of tech/force. that's what I was getting at in the first page.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know you know this but it comes to mind that you might see the reflect thing (Back at Ya! in the legendary tier). it's tied to the dodge ability but it's a straight reflect of tech/force. that's what I was getting at in the first page.

 

Ye I have that utility picked on my op.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a fair bit of luck that he survived that. At the end of his stun, he had like 2k health left, then he hit Dodge + adrenal + medpac, then roll healed away with white bar. The fact that this opponents weren't able to kill him while he was stunned tells me at least half of them were trash.

 

I was the player in the video, so I can mention I also used a flashbang, the shield/absorb and the root purge/heal utility. So, in that brief moment, I burned almost every cooldown I had. If I don't have everything up as I did, it's likely I do not survive.

 

This was a clear case of the other team not closing out an easy kill. I should have died in that stunlock but they just never got in that extra attack they needed. Their mistake afterwards was to not chase me down because I had almost nothing left to use.

 

So, with respect to the discussion on whether specific cases like this deserve a whole class nerf? You can clearly see how the other team handled it. I'd say in my case it had more to do with being lucky than too good.

 

Surviving a 1vs6 is seriously not normal. We don't need to balance the game around that. I would say in these situations people need to look closer at player skill before class balance.

 

If this class was actually immortal, then I'm amazed because I see so few people playing them in PVP. This class has a pretty high skill ceiling for PVP and I don't think engaging groups is as easy to pull off as people make it sound.

Edited by Fellow-Canadian
Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...