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Understanding the Defense and Shield Mechanics for Tanks in PVP


taugrimtaugrim

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http://taugrim.com/2012/01/19/understanding-swtors-avoidance-and-mitigation-mechanics-for-tanks-in-pvp/

 

Copy of the article in full below.

 

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This article describes the Defense and Shield mechanics for SWTOR and their implications for tanks in PVP.

 

Defense is the Avoidance mechanic and Shield is one of the Mitigation mechanics. In this article I use the terms “defense” and “avoidance” interchangeably.

 

Avoidance and Mitigation in SWTOR

 

To quickly define terms:

  • Avoidance: not being hit
  • Mitigation: reducing damage taken when hit

There are 3 categories of Avoidance as captured in the Defence Chance tooltip:

  • Melee Dodge: base of 5%, boosted by Defense Rating, talents, and buffs
  • Ranged Dodge: base of 5%, boosted by Defense Rating, talents, and buffs
  • Resistance: base of 0%, boosted by talents and buffs. This is against “spells” (Force and Tech attacks)

Mitigation comes from multiple sources:

  • Expertise: stat that provides mitigation against all damage types
  • Armor: mitigation against 2 of the 4 damage types: Energy and Kinetic. Keep in mind that for attacks that deal “weapon damage”, to understand whether Armor factors in, you have to check the damage type of the weapon itself. E.g. blasters and rifles deal Energy damage
  • Talents that provide flat damage reduction
  • Shield Chance / Shield Absorption: provided when you have a Shield offhand equipped and successfully Shield an attack that hit. The amount of damage mitigated (absorbed) is based on the offhand (e.g. 20%), your Absorption Rating, and talents in the tanking tree. SWTOR’s Shield functions similarly to WoW’s Block mechanic. The main difference is that in SWTOR you don’t have to keep oppponents in your frontal facing to Shield
  • “Bubbles“: mitigation against all damage types

The 2-Roll System

 

SWTOR leverages a 2-roll system for determining the outcome of an opponent’s attack as explained by BioWare’s Georg Zoeller (references: 1 2), bold emphasis mine:

 

First is a hit roll, accuracy versus defense, and if the attacker misses then no damage occurs. If the attacker rolled poorly enough to miss even discounting the target’s defense then a “Miss” result occurs. If he misses because of the defense then the result varies based on the attack type, the cover state of the target, and the target’s equipped weapons. All the possible results – Dodge, Parry, Deflect, Resist, Cover – are mathematically the same, but they can trigger different effects and are visualized in different ways.

 

If the attacker hits, then a second roll is made with the crit chance of the attacker versus the shield chance of the target. If a Crit or a Shield occurs then the damage is adjusted up or down (based on Surge/Absorb), and then it goes through to the armor and damage resistance. A critical can never be shielded, and an attacker with a high enough crit chance can push the target’s shield chance off the table. It shouldn’t be possible to get your passive crit chance high enough to start pushing off the target’s shield chance, but there are short-duration buffs that push these chances high enough to come into conflict.

 

Which Attack Types are Defensible and Shieldable

 

There are 4 attack types: Force, Melee, Ranged, and Tech.

 

The attack types should not be confused with the 4 damage types: Elemental, Energy, Internal, and Kinetic.

 

Melee and Ranged attacks are Defensible and Shieldable, whereas Force and Tech attacks are not. This is consistent with other games such as WoW and RIFT, where “spell” attacks are not dodgeable / parryable and not blockable.

 

Implications for Tanks in PVP

 

A critical consideration for SWTOR is that all classes have either Force or Tech attacks. You can see the attack type by looking at the Abilities tab for a given character and looking at the right-hand column. Therefore, an implication is that you may not get as much mileage out of your Defense and Shield-related talents as you might expect. E.g.

  • Stun-based abilities across all Advanced Classes are classified as either Force or Tech attacks, so the target’s defensive capability doesn’t come into play
  • I play Bounty Hunter and Trooper and most of my key abilities are classified as Tech

Keep in mind per Georg’s post that the attacker’s Crit Chance can push Shield Chance off the table. There are a lot of buffs (e.g. talent-based, from Relic, etc) that boost Crit Chance, and the implication is that when you most need to Shield heavy incoming damage, your Shield Chance may be reduced significantly or completely. Given that, and the fact that Shield Chance is calculated after the hit roll, Shield Chance is not a strong mechanic in PVP.

 

Another implication is that the talents for boosting mitigation may be stronger than we might have expected. In particular, this explains why in my experience Guardians and Juggernauts tanks take the longest time-to-kill: they have multiple bubble mechanics in their tank tree, including Invincible (Warding Call) and Sonic Barrier (Blade Barrier), and these excellent abilities provide mitigation against all damage types.

 

I shared some of the thoughts in this article on a thread for my Guide to Powertech Mechanics and PVP a week ago, and some 50 Powertechs including chainsawsamurai tested and confirmed that the Avoidance and Shield-related talents do not work against Force and Tech attacks.

 

When I run as a tank-spec’d Vanguard, I will likely use a DPS PVP set based on the game mechanics and avoid (no pun intended) the talents related to Melee Defense, Ranged Defense, and Shield Chance, unless they provide some additional benefit (e.g. the Ammo-regen effect from Shield Cycler).

 

This is not to say that you shouldn’t take the talents and tank PVP gear. If you want to max out your survivability, invest in them. It’s just important to understand what benefit you get out of them and the mechanics.

 

Acknowledgements

 

Huge thanks to Kjollborn, who helped me to realize that the attack type not the damage type is what is factored into Melee Defense, Ranged Defense, and Shield Chance.

 

Thanks to Lightweight, a 50 Combat Medic Commando in my guild, for helping me with testing.

Edited by taugrimtaugrim
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As a note, the benefit against other classes/specs will vary heavily.

 

For example, a marksmanship sniper does almost entirely weapon damage, which is defensible, shieldable, and mitigated by armor.

 

Engineering uses a few more tech options, which often do kinetic (not defensable, not shieldable, but yes affected by armor).

 

The third spec gains various internal damage attacks, which is not affected by armor, as well as not affected by defense chance or shield.

 

To say that all classes have force/tech is a misnomer, because it doesn't recognize what that spec actually uses.

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You're welcome!

 

There are many misconceptions about how Defense and especially how Shield works, so hopefully what I wrote will clear things up for players who spec tank in PVP.

 

It certainly did, especially since I was terribly confused about the different attack/damage types.

 

Its unfortunate that shields/defense proc on so few things in pvp...I looked through my abilities last night and realized that only hammer shot and HIP would be affected by someone else's shields (and full auto, but I never use that). It probably is best to just wear dps gear!

 

This guide also showed me that accuracy isn't nearly as helpful as I thought it would be, since only hammer shot and HIP are affected, as Tech abilities are all 100% accuracy already.

 

Very useful post indeed.

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As a note, the benefit against other classes/specs will vary heavily.

 

For example, a marksmanship sniper does almost entirely weapon damage, which is defensible, shieldable, and mitigated by armor.

 

Almost.

 

You are confusing damage type with attack type. MM Sniper has Ranged attacks, which are Defensible and Shieldable.

 

As I wrote in the article, damage type is not what's used for Defense and Shield rolls, attack type is.

 

To say that all classes have force/tech is a misnomer, because it doesn't recognize what that spec actually uses.

 

Incorrect.

 

Name a class that doesn't have Force or Tech abilities....you can't.

 

That being said, what you wrote previously is true though - some classes such as Sniper / GS will feel the impact of Defense and Shield on their target moreso than other DPS classes.

Edited by taugrimtaugrim
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Almost.

 

You are confusing damage type with attack type. MM Sniper has Ranged attacks, which are Defensible and Shieldable.

 

As I wrote in the article, damage type is not what's used for Defense and Shield rolls, attack type is.

 

 

 

Incorrect.

 

Name a class that doesn't have Force or Tech abilities....you can't.

 

That being said, what you wrote previously is true though - some classes such as Sniper / GS will feel the impact of Defense and Shield on their target moreso than other DPS classes.

 

It would seem you misunderstood his point, which was that some classes while having force or tech attacks don't use them during pvp.

 

Then the last two lines would suggest that you cottoned on to his reasoning, as a result your post confuses me.

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some classes while having force or tech attacks don't use them during pvp.

 

Why wouldn't a class that has Force or Tech abilities use them in PVP?

 

Then the last two lines would suggest that you cottoned on to his reasoning, as a result your post confuses me.

 

I clarified his statement that seemed to be confusing attack type with damage type.

 

But his point that some classes (e.g. GS/Sniper) are more impacted than others due to how Defense and Shield Mechanics work is valid.

Edited by taugrimtaugrim
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If the attacker hits, then a second roll is made with the crit chance of the attacker versus the shield chance of the target. If a Crit or a Shield occurs then the damage is adjusted up or down (based on Surge/Absorb), and then it goes through to the armor and damage resistance. A critical can never be shielded, and an attacker with a high enough crit chance can push the target’s shield chance off the table. It shouldn’t be possible to get your passive crit chance high enough to start pushing off the target’s shield chance, but there are short-duration buffs that push these chances high enough to come into conflict.

But does that mean that if I get (theoretically) 70% shield chance (as a tankasin), can I push their crit chance off? Or does that mean that I cant and having more than N% shield chance is useless against high crit classes and will be useless (what I mean is 50% shield chance will give same mitigation as 70% shield chance)? Its not like shield is even useful in PvP (doesnt work when stunned like defense and useless against 80% (read tech/force) attacks).

 

 

p.s. Are the defense and shield going to be buffed in PvP any time soon? Coz in PvP tanks rely only on armor for mitigation (not good for tankasin =_=).

Edited by Vesperr
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But does that mean that if I get (theoretically) 70% shield chance (as a tankasin), can I push their crit chance off? Or does that mean that I cant and having more than N% shield chance is useless against high crit classes

 

No, Shield Chance can't push Crit Chance off the table, but the reverse is true.

 

Based on what Georg said, this is how I imagine the roll table for Crit-vs-Shield looks like...

 

Scenario 1

Attacker's Crit Chance: 30%

Defender's Shield Chance: 30%

So remaining 40% is normal hit (not Crit, not Shielded)

 

Scenario 2

Attacker's Crit Chance: 60%

Defender's Shield Chance: 30%

So remaining 10% is normal hit (not Crit, not Shielded)

 

Scenario 3

Attacker's Crit Chance: 80%

Defender's Shield Chance: 30%, but for the roll calculation it's treated as 20% because the Crit Chance pushed 10% off the table

 

Scenario 4

Attacker's Crit Chance: 100% (e.g. due to a proc buff that makes the attack Crit)

Defender's Shield Chance: 30%, but for the roll calculation it's treated as 0%

Therefore, the attack is a guaranteed non-Shielded Crit

 

Keep in mind this is my guess at how it's been implemented. If anyone has seen confirmation of the roll table structure please link it.

 

Thanks!

Edited by taugrimtaugrim
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No, Shield Chance can't push Crit Chance off the table, but the reverse is true.

 

Based on what Georg said, this is how I imagine the roll table for Crit-vs-Shield looks like...

 

Thats sad. It also goes against what tanking should be. If shield could push crit off table (okay, not push but move, tanks need extra protection but near-immunity is OP) it would make sense to invest in shield (if it ever gets buffed and be able to shield at least some tech/force attacks) as every DD get high crit, some get as much crit as they can and shield will allow to counter these people, while other tanks will try to stack stamina to be effective against everyone and have their guard more effective but make it a little harder for healers.

 

Allowing DD to push shield off the table but not vica versa is just plain boring and somewhat stupid as it makes tanking even less effective in PvP.

 

p.s. Right now I can easily get 55% shield chance on my tankasin in PvP gear, I can get a little more than 60% with 2 piece PvE set. And I was wondering why maras crit me so much and their attacks are shielded so little...

Edited by Vesperr
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  • 2 weeks later...

This sucks for SinTanks, but I still have my mitigation up to 43%, and ya know, you'd be surprised about how many "white" hits there are in pvp. My shield and defenses are going off constantly because most people are idiots or can't manage their resources properly.

 

Not to mention I'm fully immune to force and tech for 5 sec with a 45 sec cool down.

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Thats sad. It also goes against what tanking should be.

[...]

p.s. Right now I can easily get 55% shield chance on my tankasin in PvP gear, I can get a little more than 60% with 2 piece PvE set. And I was wondering why maras crit me so much and their attacks are shielded so little...

 

That's your vision. My main is a shadow and I played it kinetic until last week (I respecced balance for raid reason and well ... too many guardians on my server). I had absolutly no issue with that because I find that a crit proc should crit and not do less damage than a normal hit. You just have to understand that getting more than 40% shielding is useless for PvP.

 

Tankassins do have less pure mitigation but they have a ton of self healing and as it has been told a purge/5s immunity to force/tech on a 45s CD that everyone wants to have.

Even if they rely more on defense/shield/absorption on PvE than other tanks, those facts still make them viable on PvP.

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My current def-stats are the following:

 

avoidance 23,73%

shieldchance 41,29%

absorb 33,48%

 

I'm currently considering which mods (mainly enhancements) I should put into my PVP gear. Since all the lvl 58 enhancements in BM gear are crap in my oppinion (giving precision) I replaced them with lvl 56 ones from champion/columi.

The upcoming question is on which attribute one should focus:

avoidance or shield/absorb.

 

If I'm correct you'd rather recommend avoidance.

The question however is, to which extend.

 

I tested the following:

absolute number of def-value (percentage of avoiding an attack)

346 (10,42%)

difference of 56 giving 0,0232% per Point

402 (11.72%)

difference of 46 giving 0,02196% per Point

448 (12,73%)

difference of 34 giving 0,02089% per Point

482 (13,44%)

 

The conclusion is obvious and I guess everyone recognized that on his own stats. The value behaves asymptotic to a certain number (don't know which it is in this case, but it should be around 30%).

 

But that, however, should be considered aswell. Of course avoidance in general (thanks to your post!) seems alot more benefitial due to the rolling system, but I'm not sure until when the systematic advantage of avoidance can compensate this loss of percentage points per absolute point - since shield/absorb percentage is way easier to boost (means with less absolute points).

 

 

In addition, another thought is brought to the table:

Which priority has the opponent DD, surge or crit-chance? Since they nerfed surge a little there might be a lot people focusing rather on crit-chance, which makes avoidance stronger again.

If however the DD concentrates on surge (and I still know a lot of DDs doing so) shield/abosrb might not be that ineffective (less crit -> higher percentage of non-crit dmg -> morge dmg can be affected by shield/absorb).

 

 

(sorry for potential english fails :D)

 

 

Regards

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Thank you!! Been leveling a Shadow Tank and I think this may help with my PvP knowledge a bit. I also should thank you for that post from George - knowing that crit chance can perhaps eliminate shielding against a target if the proper buffs are used could be extremely helpful in PvP with my Gunslinger.
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I'm currently considering which mods (mainly enhancements) I should put into my PVP gear. Since all the lvl 58 enhancements in BM gear are crap in my oppinion (giving precision) I replaced them with lvl 56 ones from champion/columi.

The upcoming question is on which attribute one should focus:

avoidance or shield/absorb.

 

If I'm correct you'd rather recommend avoidance.

 

Actually, for PVP, you're much better off swapping for DPS mods for your 4-pc of PVP tanking gear, and going with DPS gear for your remaining slots.

 

I do not recommend stacking Avoidance or Shield for PVP. For PVE, yes definitely, for PVP, no, because you don't get enough from it.

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  • 4 weeks later...
This sucks for SinTanks, but I still have my mitigation up to 43%, and ya know, you'd be surprised about how many "white" hits there are in pvp. My shield and defenses are going off constantly because most people are idiots or can't manage their resources properly.

 

Not to mention I'm fully immune to force and tech for 5 sec with a 45 sec cool down.

 

I used to share that impression as well, but after watching 31-pt Shadow/Assassin tanks in PVP, their survivability is excellent. The channeled interruptable heal is excellent in smaller scale combat, along with the heal proc from the tank stance.

 

Resilence rocks, and you also have Deflection.

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  • 2 weeks later...
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I found your information about defence stat on pvp really amazing m8. But Im still confused if its worth to buy the tanking set instead of the dps. Im playing a 50lvl Sith Juggernaut. Any help appreciated. Edited by WHATEVERTNS
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