Ok guys, my guild went into Denova last night on story-mode. We've done EV HM, had no problem downing all the normal mode stuff. We're full columi with some Rakata. We had a lot of trouble on the bosses simply because the damage was rather insane. People just took a lot of damage. As a tank I was shocked at how much damage I took and how hard a time my healers were having.

This is story-mode, the developers stated that "A group of fresh 50s should be able to go in and take down story-mode". Right now it appears to be harder than a lot of the old HM content. I have no issue with the mechanics. And honestly I don't see a problem here with the operation itself. What I think happened is during 1.2's update the base defensive stats were messed with and decreased. Why do I think this?

Ok, I am a juggernaut immortal spec. Pre-1.2 there is a named champion level mob on Ilum, a Jedi near a quest area, that I used to solo for extra some gear to sell. I'd usually get to maybe 30% and he'd be dead. No real problem. Now I can't get him past 50% before I die. I am popping cooldowns, running everything like normal, but he is simply cutting me down. When this happened I spoke with the other tanks and we all noticed we were taking a lot more damage than previously.

Bioware said they were going to be changing the base stats in 1.2. I believe the base defensive stats were reduced, which would account for increased damage for all raid members in the story-mode operation. Then when you couple that with the healing nerfs it makes the current story-mode seem MUCH harder than it should be. I am asking the developers to please check your base defensive stats because I think this is the source of the problem and there is no need to tweak and nerf Denova itself.

Denova is well balanced and fun right now. Please check this before you decide to tone it down.

Denova is not designed for a fresh set of 50s. Thats why it drops tier 3 gear. It is rather more geared with the HM EV & KP ops. This was stated in the patch notes and makes sense when u look at the gear Denova story mode drops.

Yeah, fresh 50s aren't even SUPPOSED to go into EV/KP story mode, the design is as follows:

Level 50 - Normal & HM Flashpoints - Story mode EV/KP - story mode explosive content.

Granted many players can jump some points depending on guild size and expertise, but nowhere did anyone state that a fresh 50 should be in Explosive Content story mode. It is tuned to columi level gear, not quest greens/oranges.

Yeah, fresh 50s aren't even SUPPOSED to go into EV/KP story mode, the design is as follows:

 

Level 50 - Normal & HM Flashpoints - Story mode EV/KP - story mode explosive content.

 

Granted many players can jump some points depending on guild size and expertise, but nowhere did anyone state that a fresh 50 should be in Explosive Content story mode. It is tuned to columi level gear, not quest greens/oranges.

If that is supposed to be the progression path, then EC tuning is off. A group that can complete story mode EV/KP but not hard mode EV/KP will not have any success in story mode EC.

If that is supposed to be the progression path, then EC tuning is off. A group that can complete story mode EV/KP but not hard mode EV/KP will not have any success in story mode EC.

This. If you need rakata gear from EV/KP HM to complete story mode EC, which drops rakata, then tuning is off.

You should only need columi gear to complete story mode EC.

Of course, I don't know how you actually do this because if a group in all columi fails, you can always argue that the gear is right and they just need to L2P. I guess long-term metrics will tell if more tuning is needed or not. I am fine with the current difficulty, but then our ops group has a mixture of columi/rakata.

I can't tell if base stats have changed or not.

This. If you need rakata gear from EV/KP HM to complete story mode EC, which drops rakata, then tuning is off.

You should only need columi gear to complete story mode EC.

 

Of course, I don't know how you actually do this because if a group in all columi fails, you can always argue that the gear is right and they just need to L2P. I guess long-term metrics will tell if more tuning is needed or not. I am fine with the current difficulty, but then our ops group has a mixture of columi/rakata.

 

I can't tell if base stats have changed or not.

Normal mode EC drops black hole comms. You shouldn't be able to get black hole comms if your entire group is nothing but columi and no Rakata. The tuning is fine.

Normal mode EC drops black hole comms. You shouldn't be able to get black hole comms if your entire group is nothing but columi and no Rakata. The tuning is fine.

Sorry but that's wrong. Even though it drops BH comms doesn't mean you must have some Rakata. However currently, as you may notice - the stat difference between columi and rakata is pretty small.

And thus Story mode EC is very much doable in full Columi (no rakata). The problem lies in the fact that it is a bit difficult.

Maybe the fights will appear to seem easier once people learn the strategies properly. Maybe they will nerf story mode when Nightmare is released.

The problem is that currently, it is a bit too hard for what they claim 'Story Mode' is meant to be. However, they cannot make it too easy, because then the jump between Story and HM will be too much. (Meaning casual guilds will literally crap themselves when they try HM and Story.)

So obviously, you cannot please everyone in this situation. Either BW wanna see if the players are able to improve and adapt to beat Story Mode with relative ease in the near future.

Or maybe they do plan on nerfing it, after Nightmare is released maybe.

The main issue here really is the difficulty of EV and KP originally. They set the bar so low - that when it got raised (which it very much needed), people are struggling to adapt to the new difficulty. And tbh my guess is that they wanna see how people do after a couple of weeks to see if it really needs a nerf or not, rather than acting too quickly on the whims of the forum users (which unfortunately both we and BW know doesn't actually represent most of the Playerbase.)

Sorry but that's wrong. Even though it drops BH comms doesn't mean you must have some Rakata. However currently, as you may notice - the stat difference between columi and rakata is pretty small.

 

And thus Story mode EC is very much doable in full Columi (no rakata). The problem lies in the fact that it is a bit difficult.

 

Maybe the fights will appear to seem easier once people learn the strategies properly. Maybe they will nerf story mode when Nightmare is released.

 

The problem is that currently, it is a bit too hard for what they claim 'Story Mode' is meant to be. However, they cannot make it too easy, because then the jump between Story and HM will be too much. (Meaning casual guilds will literally crap themselves when they try HM and Story.)

 

So obviously, you cannot please everyone in this situation. Either BW wanna see if the players are able to improve and adapt to beat Story Mode with relative ease in the near future.

Or maybe they do plan on nerfing it, after Nightmare is released maybe.

 

The main issue here really is the difficulty of EV and KP originally. They set the bar so low - that when it got raised (which it very much needed), people are struggling to adapt to the new difficulty. And tbh my guess is that they wanna see how people do after a couple of weeks to see if it really needs a nerf or not, rather than acting too quickly on the whims of the forum users (which unfortunately both we and BW know doesn't actually represent most of the Playerbase.)

This is wrong as well. Kephes in normal mode drops black hole gear which is a tier above Rakata. Why in the world should you have access to tier 2 gear when you haven't even geared out tier 1.3? Basically you think it's fair that you can gear up in tier 2 and completely ignore Rakata.

Of course, like you said you CAN complete it with columi gear but it is harder. People overrate how difficult story mode EC really is. The mechanics of all the fights are fairly easy and if you have a good coordinated group EC is no problem. Everyone got too complacent by how easy KP and EV were by being able to PUG it on demand. Now that isn't the case.

This is wrong as well. Kephes in normal mode drops black hole gear which is a tier above Rakata. Why in the world should you have access to tier 2 gear when you haven't even geared out tier 1.3? Basically you think it's fair that you can gear up in tier 2 and completely ignore Rakata.

 

Of course, like you said you CAN complete it with columi gear but it is harder. People overrate how difficult story mode EC really is. The mechanics of all the fights are fairly easy and if you have a good coordinated group EC is no problem. Everyone got too complacent by how easy KP and EV were by being able to PUG it on demand. Now that isn't the case.

Rakata drops from HARD MODE raids. If the intended prgression path for a NORMAL MODE raider is to do story mode EV/KP -> hard mode EV/KP to gear up for -> story mode EC then that is not working correctly. If the path is supposed to be story mode EV/KP -> story mode EC then story mode EC is tuned to be too hard. Any raid group that can complete story mode EV/KP, but cannot complete hard mode EV/KP, will not be able to ever progress in story mode EC. They will be lacking the skill to do it and the fact that they are lacking gear as well is a double whammy.

Rakata drops from HARD MODE raids. If the intended prgression path for a NORMAL MODE raider is to do story mode EV/KP -> hard mode EV/KP to gear up for -> story mode EC then that is not working correctly. If the path is supposed to be story mode EV/KP -> story mode EC then story mode EC is tuned to be too hard. Any raid group that can complete story mode EV/KP, but cannot complete hard mode EV/KP, will not be able to ever progress in story mode EC. They will be lacking the skill to do it and the fact that they are lacking gear as well is a double whammy.

Are you trying to suggest that you need Rakata gear to complete a raid that (primarily) rewards Rakata gear?

Really? Seriously?

The progression is: EV/ KP SM -> EV / KP HM = EC SM -> EC HM

If you are in columni, you are ready to do EV/KP HM OR EC SM. Why? Because that is the gear tier BEFORE Rakata, which is rewarded in the two spaces.

One of the problems that MMO players have is clearly identifying i) what they're doing wrong and ii) what is causing them to wipe. Most often when players wipe on hard content they say "we don't have enough gear." It's a common response that we're all guilty of. But how right is that assessment? I find, for the most part, that it is not the correct assessment. It is a cover up for lack of execution on the part of individuals (I think this is the big thing) or the raid as a whole.

Are you trying to suggest that you need Rakata gear to complete a raid that (primarily) rewards Rakata gear?

 

Really? Seriously?

 

The progression is: EV/ KP SM -> EV / KP HM = EC SM -> EC HM

 

If you are in columni, you are ready to do EV/KP HM OR EC SM. Why? Because that is the gear tier BEFORE Rakata, which is rewarded in the two spaces.

 

One of the problems that MMO players have is clearly identifying i) what they're doing wrong and ii) what is causing them to wipe. Most often when players wipe on hard content they say "we don't have enough gear." It's a common response that we're all guilty of. But how right is that assessment? I find, for the most part, that it is not the correct assessment. It is a cover up for lack of execution on the part of individuals (I think this is the big thing) or the raid as a whole.

You should read my post again, because I haven't said that any gear is required for the instance and you in your post even identified the problem. Story mode raids are supposed to be their own progression path for lesser skilled players/guilds. If HM EV/KP = story mode EC then something is not right with the tuning. How is a group that isn't skilled enough to defeat hardmodes going to do a raid that is the same difficulty?

Rakata drops from HARD MODE raids. If the intended prgression path for a NORMAL MODE raider is to do story mode EV/KP -> hard mode EV/KP to gear up for -> story mode EC then that is not working correctly. If the path is supposed to be story mode EV/KP -> story mode EC then story mode EC is tuned to be too hard. Any raid group that can complete story mode EV/KP, but cannot complete hard mode EV/KP, will not be able to ever progress in story mode EC. They will be lacking the skill to do it and the fact that they are lacking gear as well is a double whammy.

I bolded the parts where you seem to suggest some sort of gearing up process that needs to occur before taking on EC SM. Your last sentence suggests that they are lacking gear; which, from your previous sentences, infers this is from an inability to do EV/KP HM, and therefore having no Rakata.

That is how I came up with that and responded to you accordingly.

You should read my post again, because I haven't said that any gear is required for the instance and you in your post even identified the problem. Story mode raids are supposed to be their own progression path for lesser skilled players/guilds. If HM EV/KP = story mode EC then something is not right with the tuning. How is a group that isn't skilled enough to defeat hardmodes going to do a raid that is the same difficulty?

We have a fundamental disagreement here.

When a raid rewards 1.3 gear, then, logically speaking, all you need to complete that raid is 1.2 gear. I don't think many people will disagree with this.

Now I did say EV / KP HM = EC SM. I classify them like this because the preparation for them is 1.2 gear and it rewards 1.3 gear. Strictly speaking, you do not have to do EV / KP HM, and therefore can progress from EV / KP SM to EC SM. There is no problem with the progression path here.

As to your last point: hard modes, in 1.0 and 1.1, were not, in fact, hard. If you could not go at least 9/10 HM in EV/KP, I don't know what to say to you. The only fight that had remote difficulty in HM was Soa. What we know now, in hindsight, is many of these difficulties were bug related (lightning ball significantly).

Operating within this progression is not a problem. We need to stop thinking about how tier 1 hard modes were... hard. They weren't. With a little effort, any group can reasonably down EV/KP HM and EC SM.

With a little effort, any group can reasonably down EV/KP HM and EC SM.

That is not true at all, and the whole point of my post. I personally do not have a problem with the difficulty level of anything in this game, but you are lying to yourself if you think that there aren't casual guilds out there whose entire end game is story mode content. When those guilds can successfully clear tier 1 of content and then get thrown into the brickwall that either HM EV/KP or story mode EC brings them they don't magically get better and keep playing, they quit the game.

Edit: There is a reason that Blizzard recently added looking for raid difficulty to WoW when normal mode raid content was already very easy.

Story Mode EC is tuned for full Columi. Hardmode EC is tuned for full Rakata. If you really think you should be fine going from SM EV/KP to SM EC you're very wrong, and you won't down anything unless you're on alts of people who raid progression content.

Just because it came out, doesn't mean you're ready to run it.

That is not true at all, and the whole point of my post. I personally do not have a problem with the difficulty level of anything in this game, but you are lying to yourself if you think that there aren't casual guilds out there whose entire end game is story mode content. When those guilds can successfully clear tier 1 of content and then get thrown into the brickwall that either HM EV/KP or story mode EC brings them they don't magically get better and keep playing, they quit the game.

 

Edit: There is a reason that Blizzard recently added looking for raid difficulty to WoW when normal mode raid content was already very easy.

If we're discussing of the perspective of "casual guilds whose entire end game is story mode content" then you can toss out EV/KP HM. They're not doing it anyway.

By adding in the LFR element, you are suggesting that the only way these guilds can be appeased is by faceroll-esque content in story mode? Where mechanics can be largely, if not wholly ignored?

I don't think you give these casual guilds enough credit.

There are very interesting and engaging mechanics in EC SM, but the damage output on bosses and the enrage timers are very forgiving that it shouldn't be causing difficulties.

Take the first boss in EC SM, Zorn and Toth as an example. There are only three things you need to do: 1) tank swap when Zorn jumps (and this is just both tanks changing targets and hitting taunts); 2) stay out of bad when it appears; and 3) if there are any melee DPS, move away from Toth when he berserks.

That's it! Three very simple things. I firmly believe casual guilds are more than capable of doing this.

You dont need Rakata gear to do Storymode EC, I'm a Columi Shadow Tank with Rakata Earpiece, and Crafted Rakata Belt and Bracers. My guilds gear is the same, my Off tanks gear is the same. We had no problem last night managing damage. It sounds like you guys are lacking somewhere rather than Storymode EC is too hard.

Also, it seems like a bunch of people were expected Story mode to be a pushover, something like only 1 or 2 boss mechanics to deal with, little skill required of any of the players...Storymode EC doesnt mean you can just walk in and tank n spank. There's still some work to be done.

Okay so I didn't know Kephess dropped Black Hole gear, so that's my bad. However, obviously to get to Kephess you do need to kill the 3 other bosses, which drop Rakata. So you're essentially gearing up as you reach the final boss. And naturally - it's only 1 boss dropping it, which wouldn't be enough to realistically gear up an entire raid in Black Hole gear.

I just did 16m EC with a somewhat casual guild (My prev guild disbanded - yay ). We got the first boss down after a good few tries, and wiped heavily on the second. However we're getting used to the mechanics and every attempt is getting closer and closer.

The team was in mixed Rakata and Columi, and it was totally fine. Honestly, you don't need to gear up in Rakata to do a raid that PRIMARILY rewards Rakata (with as you said, a bit of BH gear from last boss).

I wouldn't call it skipping a gear-tier, since otherwise the same could be said for Lost Island, which rewards primarily Columi with 1 Rakata piece from last boss.

Infact I think the general idea of last boss dropping something a little better than the rest to be pretty good - to bridge the gear progression between difficulties.

Tbh more than anything - this place doesn't need nerf, they just need to fix the visual issues with the second boss

Okay so I didn't know Kephess dropped Black Hole gear, so that's my bad. However, obviously to get to Kephess you do need to kill the 3 other bosses, which drop Rakata. So you're essentially gearing up as you reach the final boss. And naturally - it's only 1 boss dropping it, which wouldn't be enough to realistically gear up an entire raid in Black Hole gear.

 

I just did 16m EC with a somewhat casual guild (My prev guild disbanded - yay ). We got the first boss down after a good few tries, and wiped heavily on the second. However we're getting used to the mechanics and every attempt is getting closer and closer.

 

The team was in mixed Rakata and Columi, and it was totally fine. Honestly, you don't need to gear up in Rakata to do a raid that PRIMARILY rewards Rakata (with as you said, a bit of BH gear from last boss).

 

I wouldn't call it skipping a gear-tier, since otherwise the same could be said for Lost Island, which rewards primarily Columi with 1 Rakata piece from last boss.

 

Infact I think the general idea of last boss dropping something a little better than the rest to be pretty good - to bridge the gear progression between difficulties.

 

Tbh more than anything - this place doesn't need nerf, they just need to fix the visual issues with the second boss

Not sure who said that story mode drops Black Hole gear. I've yet to see proof of a single Black Hole gear drop from Story mode. It drops black hole commendations, but only rakata gear.

Not sure who said that story mode drops Black Hole gear. I've yet to see proof of a single Black Hole gear drop from Story mode. It drops black hole commendations, but only rakata gear.

*Points at RealCandyMan on previous page* Maybe he lied...and if so shame on him, and I take my apology back

Normal mode EC drops black hole comms. You shouldn't be able to get black hole comms if your entire group is nothing but columi and no Rakata. The tuning is fine.

Do we need rakata to get the black hole comms from the weekly on Corellia too?

*Points at RealCandyMan on previous page* Maybe he lied...and if so shame on him, and I take my apology back

"Black Hole gear, unlike Campaign items, is acquired from trading in Black Hole Commendations found through weekly quests in the new Corellia area as well as the weekly quest for the Rise of the Rakghoul flashpoints (Kaon/Lost Island). It also drops on bosses in Operation: Explosive Conflict on all difficulties."

Quote from Georg Zoeller regarding 1.2 gear progression. It was in the giant post he made about how gearing is done for both pve and pvp. If people have the wrong impression about gear for 1.2, it's because the developers told us differently. But then again, they also said that story mode of EC was supposed to be the next tier of progression for people who currently farm story mode of EV and KP. I presume he meant to say that the commendations drop on all difficulties, but that's not how it reads to me.