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Class Changes Feedback: Madness Sorcerer / Balance Sage Underperforms [5.3Buff]

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Class Changes Feedback: Madness Sorcerer / Balance Sage Underperforms [5.3Buff]

Hichitsuki-hime's Avatar


Hichitsuki-hime
07.16.2017 , 09:53 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by BraverDre View Post
Yeap.. Sorcs dps is around 9,2k.. When I saw my 9,4k I was like "lol what a lucky crit"... I am just so tired of people who say that sorcs are fine. They don't understand that "fine" is not enough. We, Sorcs, want our class to be in the same category with Snipers. Madness sorc is a sustained dps class and its DPS is below rDPS Burst and even Virulence.
my best so far is 8.9k lol. and i just can't figure out *** i'm doing wrong LOL.
The Red Eclipse: Ka'nata (madness sorc) <Indefinite>;
Ebon Hawk: Sa'yana <Army of Light>
5/5 NiM TFB; 7/7 NiM S&V; 5/5 NiM DF; 3/5 NIM DP; 5/5 HM RAV; 5/5 HM ToS
#Fix SAGE DPS # R.I.P. SAGE HEALS

BraverDre's Avatar


BraverDre
07.16.2017 , 04:25 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Hichitsuki-hime View Post
my best so far is 8.9k lol. and i just can't figure out *** i'm doing wrong LOL.
http://parsely.io/parser/compare/300214/0/299405/2/0 look at parsley comparison between you and me. Click on the link then click on Ability by ability comparison and you will see the difference between the opener, buffs timings and rotation. You also have to hope for the lucky crit... 9k-9,2k is a consistent dps of a madness sorc.

Remember: use polarity shift before dots in the opener and before demolish in the rotation. Use recklessness only before deathfield. I apply dots before the deathfield because it makes my opener be at 13k dps and its easier to maintain 9,2k with doing same rotation over and over again.

P.S. while sorcs can do 9,2k consistently, snipers and IO mercs can do 9,6 like no problem in the worst case scenario.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
07.16.2017 , 04:37 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by BraverDre View Post
Exactly - no point to talk when u don't play this class and know nothing about how bad it balanced right now.

this is my parse of one of the best madness sorc http://parsely.io/parser/view/298755/0
and this is a parse of an average mara http://parsely.io/parser/view/289414/0

Don't u see the difference? Madness sorc is underperforming by a lot. I want my favorite class to be great again.
So get ready for a mDPS nerf in 5.4 if they don't decide to balance rDPS properly.
Doesn't stop you does it?

I'll post wherever the hell I want. You got problem with that, do something.

I'll tell you what I, and many other people see. You calling for nerfs on everyone but yourself. That's what I see and that's why your *** O. I'm the guy who was speaking out in favor or Sorcs getting some love until you and some of your pals decided the best way to improve your lot was at the expense of everyone else whether or not they deserved it.

Not only, are you calling for everyone around you to get nerfed, not only are you asking for a buff, you are your cronies want a second buff already, and you want lightning spec to get nerfed, when they are in a worser position than you are. You have the balls to ask for burst damage while asking for nerfs from the burst spec.

Sustained specs shouldn't have high burst. Lightning should.

Your so selfish in your attempts, you wanna step on your own people to do it.

I hate to break it to you, but Sorcs are never going to be top tier DPS in this game.

But keep on trying to win support for your cause by trying to rip everyone else down. Lets see how good that works of for you.

They may very well rip melee apart, but even if they do, the same melee classes that have higher DPS than you do now, still will have higher DPS than you.

The fact is, as bad a situation as sorc DPS legimately is in in some cases. I know a few Sorc DPS on the shadowlands who will out DPS every mara, assy, a merc that comes along. The potential is there. You're just not as good as they are. It isn't all about the class and numbers, it's just as much about the people that pay them. There is one of them that out DPSes everyone almost every single time, and great players at that.

But Keep dreaming you'll do more rDPS than Snipers specs will.

BraverDre's Avatar


BraverDre
07.16.2017 , 06:24 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
Doesn't stop you does it?

I'll post wherever the hell I want. You got problem with that, do something.

I'll tell you what I, and many other people see. You calling for nerfs on everyone but yourself. That's what I see and that's why your *** O. I'm the guy who was speaking out in favor or Sorcs getting some love until you and some of your pals decided the best way to improve your lot was at the expense of everyone else whether or not they deserved it.

Not only, are you calling for everyone around you to get nerfed, not only are you asking for a buff, you are your cronies want a second buff already, and you want lightning spec to get nerfed, when they are in a worser position than you are. You have the balls to ask for burst damage while asking for nerfs from the burst spec.

Sustained specs shouldn't have high burst. Lightning should.

Your so selfish in your attempts, you wanna step on your own people to do it.

I hate to break it to you, but Sorcs are never going to be top tier DPS in this game.

But keep on trying to win support for your cause by trying to rip everyone else down. Lets see how good that works of for you.

They may very well rip melee apart, but even if they do, the same melee classes that have higher DPS than you do now, still will have higher DPS than you.

The fact is, as bad a situation as sorc DPS legimately is in in some cases. I know a few Sorc DPS on the shadowlands who will out DPS every mara, assy, a merc that comes along. The potential is there. You're just not as good as they are. It isn't all about the class and numbers, it's just as much about the people that pay them. There is one of them that out DPSes everyone almost every single time, and great players at that.

But Keep dreaming you'll do more rDPS than Snipers specs will.

Chill honestly. are u trying to fistfight on forums lol? You shouldn't waste ur energy on nothing..

http://parsely.io/parser/view/287347/0 carnage doing 10,5k
http://parsely.io/parser/view/287348/0 deception doing 10,5k
http://parsely.io/parser/view/298755/0 sorc doing 9,6k + with broken deathmark.

carnage and deception are burst dps so they should be in the same category with madness sorc
range sustained/melee burst. They must buff sorcs or nerf burst melee dps classes.

http://dulfy.net/2017/06/15/swtor-bi...lance-happens/ here take a look

http://parsely.io/parser/view/294641/0 operatives has to get a huge nerf. period.

I get support from people who actually play the class. This class was the most popular in a first place and nowadays it's a trash class because of 5.0 nerf. 5.3 didn't fix all the issues.

P.S. ur friends will not out dps maras on a Madness sorc. Stop lying. All good sorcs on shadowlands play lightning (some with the CL bug) and we are talking about madness here. I bet ur friends are not as good as u describe. Show me their parses on Madness sorc lol. ur are just trash talking

shyroman's Avatar


shyroman
07.16.2017 , 06:35 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoppinswtor View Post
I appreciate your honesty. Most of the DPS sorcs who are getting 9500+ on a dummy aren't being forthcoming how long it's actually taking them to get outstanding RNG. Even 9300 as madness is a good parse and likely features good crits.

Arsenal, meanwhile, has been amazingly consistent, and so has IO. Average arsenal parse is 9100 and pretty much always between 9000-9200. Same with IO (9600-9800). Both sorc specs are varying wildly between 9100-9500 for me. I haven't parsed Sniper yet, but I feel there's way too much variance with sorc specs atm.
Average parse for arsenal being 9100? I very much doubt you're getting that especially when you're top parse is barely breaking that when using ttk and there is only even 1 parse above that. I don't disagree that madness needs to be buffed more because it's sustained damage is still very bad (and deathmark still isn't fixed), but if you're going to argue, don't make outrageous claims that are easily fact checked (arsenal was also way overnerfed so there's that too).
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Darrahsrhaw's Avatar


Darrahsrhaw
07.16.2017 , 06:37 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
Doesn't stop you does it?

I'll post wherever the hell I want. You got problem with that, do something.

I'll tell you what I, and many other people see. You calling for nerfs on everyone but yourself. That's what I see and that's why your *** O. I'm the guy who was speaking out in favor or Sorcs getting some love until you and some of your pals decided the best way to improve your lot was at the expense of everyone else whether or not they deserved it.

Not only, are you calling for everyone around you to get nerfed, not only are you asking for a buff, you are your cronies want a second buff already, and you want lightning spec to get nerfed, when they are in a worser position than you are. You have the balls to ask for burst damage while asking for nerfs from the burst spec.

Sustained specs shouldn't have high burst. Lightning should.

Your so selfish in your attempts, you wanna step on your own people to do it.

I hate to break it to you, but Sorcs are never going to be top tier DPS in this game.

But keep on trying to win support for your cause by trying to rip everyone else down. Lets see how good that works of for you.

They may very well rip melee apart, but even if they do, the same melee classes that have higher DPS than you do now, still will have higher DPS than you.

The fact is, as bad a situation as sorc DPS legimately is in in some cases. I know a few Sorc DPS on the shadowlands who will out DPS every mara, assy, a merc that comes along. The potential is there. You're just not as good as they are. It isn't all about the class and numbers, it's just as much about the people that pay them. There is one of them that out DPSes everyone almost every single time, and great players at that.

But Keep dreaming you'll do more rDPS than Snipers specs will.
U dont play sorc at all u have no idea that u tallking about. This "good" sorcs from the shadowlands live most of the in US and have ping like 10-30 and with lightning bug sure they can do good. Im on TRE with ping 90-100 cant do the same. so i suggest u to shut up we dont want to rip ur mara we just want justice
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verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
07.16.2017 , 10:46 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoppinswtor View Post
I appreciate your honesty. Most of the DPS sorcs who are getting 9500+ on a dummy aren't being forthcoming how long it's actually taking them to get outstanding RNG. Even 9300 as madness is a good parse and likely features good crits.

Arsenal, meanwhile, has been amazingly consistent, and so has IO. Average arsenal parse is 9100 and pretty much always between 9000-9200. Same with IO (9600-9800). Both sorc specs are varying wildly between 9100-9500 for me. I haven't parsed Sniper yet, but I feel there's way too much variance with sorc specs atm.
Madness should be straight forward enough actually, similar to other classes you can get epic crits on upward of the "hit range" of your abilties, when your relic are procced etc etc etc.

But Lightning has the 25% chance to proc a 2nd hit for 25% damage on nearly all its rotationnal abilities. And those proc have of course a chance to crit (safe TB's one that is always a crit) etc. So its in part why you see some crazy variance.

While part of the fun of playing lightning is seeing those proc go nuts under polarity shift and people panic over the ton of lightning coming their way and their health plummetting (when done right) it would probably help to "balance" the class correctly if they took out the rng from it, and introduced the average extra dps from it as standard damage.

A lot of the high legit parses have both some rather nice crit rates on key abilities, but a quite high % of procs.


Tbh I'm at the point I mostly discard 2.5M dummy as totally accurate. We should definitely be using the 4M dummy for accurate result over where the dps of a spec truly is, 2.5M is mostly RNG bragging at this point.

I lack the patience to wack a dummy other than to train my rotation, and typically am tired of doing it after 2-3 tries, so you won't see me often in the top 3 spot, but I'd like it if more people did the 4M dummy, as the RNG from a 6 minute 30 s parse is not going to be as marked as on a 4 min one.

There's a reason when we first started parsing we were aiming for 5 min to get a decent benchmark.
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Hichitsuki-hime's Avatar


Hichitsuki-hime
07.16.2017 , 11:17 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
Doesn't stop you does it?

I'll post wherever the hell I want. You got problem with that, do something.

I'll tell you what I, and many other people see. You calling for nerfs on everyone but yourself. That's what I see and that's why your *** O. I'm the guy who was speaking out in favor or Sorcs getting some love until you and some of your pals decided the best way to improve your lot was at the expense of everyone else whether or not they deserved it.

Not only, are you calling for everyone around you to get nerfed, not only are you asking for a buff, you are your cronies want a second buff already, and you want lightning spec to get nerfed, when they are in a worser position than you are. You have the balls to ask for burst damage while asking for nerfs from the burst spec.

Sustained specs shouldn't have high burst. Lightning should.

Your so selfish in your attempts, you wanna step on your own people to do it.

I hate to break it to you, but Sorcs are never going to be top tier DPS in this game.

But keep on trying to win support for your cause by trying to rip everyone else down. Lets see how good that works of for you.

They may very well rip melee apart, but even if they do, the same melee classes that have higher DPS than you do now, still will have higher DPS than you.

The fact is, as bad a situation as sorc DPS legimately is in in some cases. I know a few Sorc DPS on the shadowlands who will out DPS every mara, assy, a merc that comes along. The potential is there. You're just not as good as they are. It isn't all about the class and numbers, it's just as much about the people that pay them. There is one of them that out DPSes everyone almost every single time, and great players at that.

But Keep dreaming you'll do more rDPS than Snipers specs will.
okay dude. calm down a little would you? it's sometimes really entertaining watching people blow up like this on forums, really. but most of the time it's even kind of sad. We're ALL entitled to have an opinion. And no, i for one would rather they get madness up on par with the disciplines they themselves stated it should do comparable numbers with.
I mean really, what's wrong with us wanting to do more dps than a viru sniper??
BioWare themselves said that: Concealment, AP, Rage, Deception, Engineering, I.O., Carnage & Madness - the melee burst & ranged sustained. should all be AT TARGET DPS. While virulence should be doing target DPS -2.5%.
Now do I want them to nerf everything else so we can look good at their expense? HELL NO.
But that IS indeed the track record for 5.3 instead of giving madness a good buff, they decided to nerf arsenal, engi, I.O. and viru. so really, while i'd love it to be balanced out through buffs a small part of me is suspecting they might not go that way.
At the end of the day we do not actually know what the target DPS is, so we don't really know how close / far off we actually are of course and true, we don't have as much data available as our devs obviously.
If you say your friends are so awesome at madness sorc.... maybe they should upload some parses... or better yet write the dulfy guide for the spec? we would love to have a up-to-date one for sure :P
The Red Eclipse: Ka'nata (madness sorc) <Indefinite>;
Ebon Hawk: Sa'yana <Army of Light>
5/5 NiM TFB; 7/7 NiM S&V; 5/5 NiM DF; 3/5 NIM DP; 5/5 HM RAV; 5/5 HM ToS
#Fix SAGE DPS # R.I.P. SAGE HEALS

Hoppinswtor's Avatar


Hoppinswtor
07.17.2017 , 02:15 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by shyroman View Post
Average parse for arsenal being 9100? I very much doubt you're getting that especially when you're top parse is barely breaking that when using ttk and there is only even 1 parse above that. I don't disagree that madness needs to be buffed more because it's sustained damage is still very bad (and deathmark still isn't fixed), but if you're going to argue, don't make outrageous claims that are easily fact checked (arsenal was also way overnerfed so there's that too).
I did five parses. They were approximately 8950, 9170, 9150, 9100, and 9040. I did terminate two other parses early because of lag spikes so I didn't include them. I'm also missing about 2/3 of my mastery datacrons, so I assume I'm losing about 25-30 dps from that. I did get okay crits: 41-42 percent on all but the 8950 parse, and a high 44 percent crit but very poorly played 9100 parse. The average parse would probably be closer to 9000 than 9100. A competent min-maxed player with datacrons should be averaging at least 9k on a dummy once they nail down the use of rapid shots (e.g. rapid shots before blazing bolts if it procs supercharge and RS/HSM are still on cd).

The point I was making is that, because of the surge nerf, a lot of the variance was removed from arsenal's performance on a dummy. Both sorc specs seem to have more variance.
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Hichitsuki-hime's Avatar


Hichitsuki-hime
07.17.2017 , 04:47 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Hoppinswtor View Post
I did five parses. They were approximately 8950, 9170, 9150, 9100, and 9040. I did terminate two other parses early because of lag spikes so I didn't include them. I'm also missing about 2/3 of my mastery datacrons, so I assume I'm losing about 25-30 dps from that. I did get okay crits: 41-42 percent on all but the 8950 parse, and a high 44 percent crit but very poorly played 9100 parse. The average parse would probably be closer to 9000 than 9100. A competent min-maxed player with datacrons should be averaging at least 9k on a dummy once they nail down the use of rapid shots (e.g. rapid shots before blazing bolts if it procs supercharge and RS/HSM are still on cd).

The point I was making is that, because of the surge nerf, a lot of the variance was removed from arsenal's performance on a dummy. Both sorc specs seem to have more variance.
indeed. i'm by far not the best sorc around lol. and lol i think my max is like... 8.9k but the dps can be anywhere between 8.6 and 9 (for me at least atm) based on relic procs, overall crit & lag.
The Red Eclipse: Ka'nata (madness sorc) <Indefinite>;
Ebon Hawk: Sa'yana <Army of Light>
5/5 NiM TFB; 7/7 NiM S&V; 5/5 NiM DF; 3/5 NIM DP; 5/5 HM RAV; 5/5 HM ToS
#Fix SAGE DPS # R.I.P. SAGE HEALS