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Please do not waste your time brining back expertise. It has nothing to do with pvp.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Please do not waste your time brining back expertise. It has nothing to do with pvp.

Seterade's Avatar


Seterade
02.11.2019 , 11:37 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by LinkinPein View Post
There was nothing wrong with the old Warzone Commendations. Oh damn, even writing that makes me feel nostalgic.

Expertise needs to return; the current gearing system is unacceptable. It clearly forces true PvPers to either not care about it (which is what most are doing), or grind the stupid dailies and the boring PvE stuff.

Gearing for PvP should be fast, simple, and through the very means for which you are gearing. You queue for PvP, you get your Warzone Commendations, you then get a piece of best in slot (which is only best in slot for PvP). Period.

Restore Unranked and Ranked gear tiers, return expertise.
UC is most likely going to be the new currency... for codeing reasons. theres no reason to remove it from game, and it will give pvers a way to gear for pvp. which isnt an issue since UC accumlation in pve is vastly less than pvp.

Quote: Originally Posted by VaeVictis View Post
Bolster is 252 with a current gear cap of 258, if you can't compete at that level then you're just bad and looking for excuses for your losses.

I dusted off my Guardian last night that I haven't played in years to team with a friend pub side. Said Guardian is still in Rishi blues. My entire left side minus bracers was sans augments. I was top 3 DPS (counting both sides) in every match and we went 10-6. I even played as Focus.
moot point. we are so far past diminishing returns due to lack of expansion reset that we are only gaining like 4% dps.

the reason its important is because shocker! pve people have an easier time max gearing for pvp than pvp players. no matter what arguement you throw up, no matter how many time you say "but but, no gear difference, skill>gear" people are more equiptd by playing a different content.

skill does equal more than gear however, when skill meets skill gear will win. this is why gear should not exist in pvp. because its a skill mode.

you may be saying "yeh pfffft! how often are you actually going to meet someone as good as you?" the reality is this... there is a top 1% in swtor pvp who know every single dcd, counter and rotation. then there is like 40% who are above average they know their class and have a little exp fighting other classes. then theres like another 20% who just know their class and dont have much exp, finally theres a last 40% who legit just got into pvpp are taking dps utilitys and dont understand why they get destroyed by enet.

that like 4 total skill groups. it is not "unlikely" that your going to fight someone on your level regularly.

Zurules's Avatar


Zurules
02.11.2019 , 01:41 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Lundorff View Post
You want me to resubscribe for a month, just to tell you how bloody, horrifically wrong you are? Fine I will take the bait.



They would never be able to do this in a manner that would serve both sides. It would need to be a lot faster to have any meaning for PVPers, and it would kill all incentive for PvE progression players. That is not what PVPers want. It is not what we have been asking for.



This is such a weird sentence. Why are you even talking about a PvP-stat and then comparing it to PvE gameplay. It makes no sense.



It changed everything. PVP should be about skills and nothing else, period. Forcing a gear grind upon none-progression players is detriment to skill-based PVP. Back in the 3.3 - 4.X era we could be competetive within a few weeks, and often instantly when comms became legacy bound. With the command grind and now, puke, crystal grind, we are starting to see huge discrepancies in gear and it will only become worse. I never got full gear for all classes in 248, and with 258 I will not even bother. Yes there are many other factors to consider, but this was so completely unnecessary and it really shows how out-of-touch the remaining developer is.




Yes I am less when competing in terrible gear vs. someone in much better gear. Yes it absolutely impacts my experience when PVPing.




We DO NOT CARE about expertise. We care about being on equal footing! The old PvP gear just happens to be the easiest way to ensure that. The BEST way would be to force equal stats based on classes and completely by-pass any and all gear. Removing gear grind from PVP would be fantastic, and if someone still needs incentives they could just have titles, special cosmetic gear and similar trinkets.

Sheesh!

But they clearly insists on gear for PVP, so that is why we want it back the way it was around 4.0 when they made the comms legacy bound. It was epic. You had next to no excuse for not being BiS - especially for ranked. It meant people could dabble and try other professions without being gear-gimped the first 6 months. It meant low -/midbies were alive and vibrant.

I will NEVER understand why this is such a controversial topic. The inconvenience of having 2 sets of gear? Really?

Anyone NOT wanting 4.0 PVP gear back is either:

a) A troll plain an simple.

b) Mostly a PVE progression player that would rather NOT spend a week getting PVP gear, and prefers to shaft over all actual PVPers for their own convenience.

Lets all remember back when EAware had a clue:


http://www.swtor.com/blog/pvp-econom...ame-update-3.3
I have no clue who you are m8, so I have no clue how in the world you would think that I wanted you to resub just to comment here, that's your choice and I had nothing to do with it.


Feel free to disagree, seeing others point of view is interesting to me as it often provides things that we did not think about.

The whole point of me starting this thread is to create awareness that expertise is useless and does not need to be brought back. That the devs focus should be on closing the gap of the time it takes to acquire a full set of bis gear because that is what we want. From my point of view, all your arguments lead towards bringing back HOW you geared for pvp back. I feel like you are somehow incuding expertise in the HOW when all expertise is is part of the gear that you get from the HOW. It is not the HOW. If this still is not clear for you let me know, maybe someone else might provide you with an alternative explanation.


Most of my points that you commented, is simply my explanation for all this. You don't believe that they can do was I think they should focus on without hurting both pve and pvp. I simply say that your wrong and that the choice is all in the players hand. My example for this is this: Bring back the sort of wz commendations from doing any wz. allow that commendation to guy 252 and 258 gear (like it was in the past). For a PvPer , this gives us the fast way of gearing again without having to do any pve. You say that will hurt PVE progression, the only way I see that being true is if the PVE player decides to take a shortcut just to get gear faster by doing pvp. But that is the PLAYERS CHOICE, they dont need to do pvp to gear up at all if their goal is to do progression.


My comment on comparing expertise to crit, accuracy etc was simply to explain that all expertise was is a stat just like any of the others but that it was only relevant in pvp situations. That is the only difference. The point of that section was just to show that expertise is just a stat. I compared it to the others simply because they are also stats. It is a useless stat because of both players had the same expertise, it did in reality absolutely nothing between those two players. Look at today, you can say that all the players right now have "hidden" expertise stat that you cannot see, lets say its 1400 expertise. The bonus that we are all getting right now is the same 0. So how is expertise useful involving players who have the same amount of it, the answer: its not useful at all. I really dont know how to make this any more clear so if you still dont get it, again maybe someone else might be able to inform you in a different way than me.


Removing expertise changed nothing for pvp, because it did nothing for pvp in the first place. Here when you say that it did change everything, I feel like you are focusing on the wrong thing. Your complaint on what changed was about HOW you gear (wz commendations). This is a MMO, having a bit of a gear grind to me, is part of what an MMO is. The removal of HOW you gear is where your focus should be at. That has nothing to do with having or not having expertise on the gear itself.


The next point, was simply about how people identify themselves as a PVPer. Because you decided to answer yes, you felt like you are less of a pvper by not having expertise on your gear. This is one of two things. 1 you actually are having an identity crisis which I honest have no clue how to help you with, or your focus is once again focusing on the wrong thing. You seem to be focusing on your effectiveness based on gear differences that you and your opponent have. Based on that, your experience makes you feel somewhat lesser than your opponent? Why? How can u say that because someone has better gear than you (in most cases that's just because that person put more time into the game to acquire that gear) that that person is more of a pvper than you? Your Experience DOING pvp and your identity of BEING a pvper are two separate things. I dont understand how you seem to be combining the two? (atleast that is what I feel like your trying to do)


Equal footing, you need to be way more specific about what equal footing is to you. I personally see equal footing as people having the same abilities, the same hp, crit chance, etc. The only difference is the player and the actions and the order of those actions that that player decides to do, that is what equal footing means to me. But this is a game with 8 different classes, healers, tanks, dps. It has Different combinations of choices for utilities for all of them. we have single target damage, aoe damage, damage over time, etc... My point here is that this game and its "BALANCE" will NEVER be about equal footing in the way I define equal footing. The game is supposed to be diverse, some specs and abilities are meant to be countered by others and I believe the balance is based in theory around how any combination of 8 players goes vs any other combination that 8 other players choose. Its this complexity that makes this game fun and interesting to me. The only problem is and has been, is the fact that what people come up with as the meta or "best" composition, stays the perceived best for way too long. It is too complex to have "perfect balance" that requires no adjustments, that's why I wish they would make small adjustments on a much more frequent basis compared to what it is right now. So, no I do not want equal footing, partly because I think it is impossible to achieve, and even if it was, then it would be boring as hell.


So to response to your two possibles for the kind of person that would NOT want 4.0 pvp gear back, I say this:

a) I am no troll, I am very serious and I truly despise that kind of behavior because I believe that the biggest problem we have in ranked in terms of player retention, is caused by people who troll the ranked queue.

b) I havent done pve progression since snv and tfb were the new operations, I am mostly a PVP player compared to PVE which I bascily never do. I sit in pvp queue, craft and sit beside a GTN terminal making credits about 99.9999 % of my time logged into the game.

So surprise, I am not one of your two options. My final comment to is to put your focus where it belongs, on HOW we gear, and not on THE gear itself.
All Galaxy Hybrid-Clicker Shadow

Seterade's Avatar


Seterade
02.11.2019 , 01:55 PM | #23
sigh....

bud if they make it easier to gear in BiS doing pvp (like with wz comms) then PvErs will pvp enough to get BiS gear, breaze through all pve content then unsub/stop playing because they no longer have progression gearing to keep them playing.

this is the whole point. pve progression (hard, time invested) gearing is why pvers sub. you take that from them by making BiS super easy with a little pvp they will leave the game the same way the pvpers did when their gear tier became progression based. the only way to seperate this is to have 2 gear sets for two contents.

Zurules's Avatar


Zurules
02.11.2019 , 02:27 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Seterade View Post
sigh....

bud if they make it easier to gear in BiS doing pvp (like with wz comms) then PvErs will pvp enough to get BiS gear, breaze through all pve content then unsub/stop playing because they no longer have progression gearing to keep them playing.

this is the whole point. pve progression (hard, time invested) gearing is why pvers sub. you take that from them by making BiS super easy with a little pvp they will leave the game the same way the pvpers did when their gear tier became progression based. the only way to seperate this is to have 2 gear sets for two contents.
Again, giving pvpers the option to gear via wz coms to get bis, has nothing to do with pve. PvE players can go about doing their progression by doing their operations and gear that way, which is the way pve players want to gear. If a PvE player decides to do some pvp to advance his/her progression the way not intended for them, that is the players decision and choice to make. Same thing goes for pvpers, if they want to do some hm ops to gear out, they have that choice too. Why would you want to put restraints on how people choose to gear between pve and pvp? Isnt that the reason you guys are complaining in the first place.
All Galaxy Hybrid-Clicker Shadow

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
02.11.2019 , 02:49 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by VaeVictis View Post
Bolster is 252 with a current gear cap of 258, if you can't compete at that level then you're just bad and looking for excuses for your losses.

I dusted off my Guardian last night that I haven't played in years to team with a friend pub side. Said Guardian is still in Rishi blues. My entire left side minus bracers was sans augments. I was top 3 DPS (counting both sides) in every match and we went 10-6. I even played as Focus.

hurr durr inb4 Trixxie classic excuse of you were teamed with bads against bads...no it was Sunday all the best premades were out in force.

252 Bolster is all you need otherwise there are plenty of safe space single-player games.
Point is it doesn't hurt anyone by making bolster give everyone in the WZ the same exact amount of stats boosted. Just make the bolster push everyone up by the same amount.

Why open themselves up to having people not want to play due to stat disparity that is caused by a highly unpopular gearing system? Regardless if the stat difference is slight, it's still a difference.

Is it so much to ask for the PVP playing field to be 100% equal statwise in the WZs and not "almost the same but still less?"

The only difference that should be in the WZs regarding stats is when a toon is geared a specific way to alter it's gameplay like speeding up GCDs with alacrity, or wearing high endurance for HPs etc.

They can achieve complete parity in the WZs by simply making bolster boost all stats to a max level in the WZs without ever having to create new PVP gears to grind for with expertise, or changing their present BiS gearing system that so many people refuse being a part of.

You people want to argue about irrelevant things, so have at it. But if BW really wants to solve the issue of PVPers wanting parity with their stats in the WZs they can achieve this using bolster.
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Banderal's Avatar


Banderal
02.11.2019 , 04:51 PM | #26
Wait, I'm confused. Somehow expertise gives stealthers only an unstoppable buff in ranked, and that's why exflitrate needs to be removed? I think that's what I read.

Slippery When'wet, FistFullOfCandy - SF

Noyjitat's Avatar


Noyjitat
02.11.2019 , 06:08 PM | #27
I read expertise but my mind read talent/skill trees returning. If only....
Spoiler

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
02.11.2019 , 06:52 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Zurules View Post
Again, giving pvpers the option to gear via wz coms to get bis, has nothing to do with pve. PvE players can go about doing their progression by doing their operations and gear that way, which is the way pve players want to gear. If a PvE player decides to do some pvp to advance his/her progression the way not intended for them, that is the players decision and choice to make. Same thing goes for pvpers, if they want to do some hm ops to gear out, they have that choice too. Why would you want to put restraints on how people choose to gear between pve and pvp? Isnt that the reason you guys are complaining in the first place.
You completely miss the point he is trying to make.

“BioWare don’t want to give players an easy out when it comes to getting pve gear through playing pvp”

People will mostly always take the fastest and easiest route to gearing. It’s human nature and BioWare know this.
Expecting the vast majority to abide by the rules to gear in specific content as BioWare set them up for grind is nieve.

You don’t seem to really understand the situation regarding gearing. Nothing any of us say will be able to make you understand if you don’t try and look at all the angles and put yourself in other players shoes and also understand why BioWare don’t want to allow people to grind pve gear faster in pvp (if they had the opportunity).

Zurules's Avatar


Zurules
02.11.2019 , 07:18 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
You completely miss the point he is trying to make.

“BioWare don’t want to give players an easy out when it comes to getting pve gear through playing pvp”

People will mostly always take the fastest and easiest route to gearing. It’s human nature and BioWare know this.
Expecting the vast majority to abide by the rules to gear in specific content as BioWare set them up for grind is nieve.

You don’t seem to really understand the situation regarding gearing. Nothing any of us say will be able to make you understand if you don’t try and look at all the angles and put yourself in other players shoes and also understand why BioWare don’t want to allow people to grind pve gear faster in pvp (if they had the opportunity).
you really believe that I did not consider the possibility that some, and as you say most pve players will do pvp if it gears them up faster. I myself would always try and get my bis gear as fast as possible for my main no matter what type of content. If those pvers who hate pvp, but choose to do it to gear up faster, then that is their choice if they want to suffer and gear faster or gear slower but enjoy doing it. That is a questions that everyone will have to make for themselves and both answers are correct. You guys have been complaining that you are FORCED to do pve to gear. So why would you be so opposed to the idea if they gave you YOUR CHOICE of which way you want to gear.
All Galaxy Hybrid-Clicker Shadow

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
02.11.2019 , 07:43 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Zurules View Post
you really believe that I did not consider the possibility that some, and as you say most pve players will do pvp if it gears them up faster. I myself would always try and get my bis gear as fast as possible for my main no matter what type of content. If those pvers who hate pvp, but choose to do it to gear up faster, then that is their choice if they want to suffer and gear faster or gear slower but enjoy doing it. That is a questions that everyone will have to make for themselves and both answers are correct. You guys have been complaining that you are FORCED to do pve to gear. So why would you be so opposed to the idea if they gave you YOUR CHOICE of which way you want to gear.
You are still blindly missing the point.

“BioWare” don’t want pve Raiders to have an option to gear faster. That is why every other player under this system is forced to grind slowly and not fast like we use to for pvp.

Their idea of the grind in 5.10 was purely to give the raiders something to aim for. Which is what most MMO raid games are about, “gear grind” targets.

While ever you have a slow grind for some and a faster path for others, there will be a discrepancy in pvp and it’s not fun. “BioWare” themselves have admitted as much in the past that a slow grind is detrimental to pvp enjoyment. (if you read http://www.swtor.com/blog/pvp-econom...ame-update-3.3)

I really don’t know if you can’t grasped why this is an issue or if you are trolling.