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I want my Dps sin back. Any hope for a viable sin in 6.0

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
I want my Dps sin back. Any hope for a viable sin in 6.0

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
12.29.2018 , 06:07 PM | #31
Disclaimer: my post will revolve around the Serenity spec only.

I recently returned to the game after a long hiatus. I used to main Balance (serenity) Shadow back in 1.7, but after the changes in 2.0 I kinda fell out of the game. I've tried every iteration of the class and spec since, so I know its history.

As a returning player, it is not our defenses that concerns me. Shadows were always squishy, Balance/Serenity in particular, but we had the tools to get around it. We still have these tools and we can mitigate insane amounts of damage. What bothers me instead is the loss of utility and single target DPS. Serenity has gotten better single target DPS since 2.0 but it still feels lacklustre, especially if you compare it to other classes. By reading through this thread I get the feeling that people want to spread dots easier, but that's not our primary concern in my opinion. AoE pressure is useful but it's also detrimental as it sabotages incapacitation-effects such as flashbang and force lift. By spreading dots without control we're becoming less tactical for team play. As such, I don't think we should ever spread dots via Force in Balance or Deathfield ever again. It is fine the way it is now.

However we do lack a lot in the single-target damage department. Back in 1.7 we could still use Shadow Strike, which helped a lot. We now have Spinning Strike procs, but they're not as effective. It is possible that Force in Balance did more damage as well as it only struck 3 targets. Force in Balance also had a range of 30 meters, meaning we could nuke people from a safe distance; and it was great utility too. Personally, I'd love to see the ability back to something like this: hit less targets but deal more damage and have a 30 meter range.

And finally, another thing we suffer from (shared issue with lethality operatives) is that we require a lot of GCDs to get our damage going. I don't really see the point of having both Sever Force and Force Breach. They could easily be combined into one ability. Perhaps Squelch could have a bit longer duration and allow its dot to be spread as well. Also, we need another button to click. Serenity Strike is awesome, but I'd like to see Project back in some shape or another (mainly because it's yellow damage and has a bit of range which suits the playstyle).

Those are my opinions after having been back for about a month.

Kazz_Devlin's Avatar


Kazz_Devlin
12.30.2018 , 09:59 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Majspuffen View Post
Disclaimer: my post will revolve around the Serenity spec only.

I recently returned to the game after a long hiatus. I used to main Balance (serenity) Shadow back in 1.7, but after the changes in 2.0 I kinda fell out of the game. I've tried every iteration of the class and spec since, so I know its history.

As a returning player, it is not our defenses that concerns me. Shadows were always squishy, Balance/Serenity in particular, but we had the tools to get around it. We still have these tools and we can mitigate insane amounts of damage. What bothers me instead is the loss of utility and single target DPS. Serenity has gotten better single target DPS since 2.0 but it still feels lacklustre, especially if you compare it to other classes. By reading through this thread I get the feeling that people want to spread dots easier, but that's not our primary concern in my opinion. AoE pressure is useful but it's also detrimental as it sabotages incapacitation-effects such as flashbang and force lift. By spreading dots without control we're becoming less tactical for team play. As such, I don't think we should ever spread dots via Force in Balance or Deathfield ever again. It is fine the way it is now.

However we do lack a lot in the single-target damage department. Back in 1.7 we could still use Shadow Strike, which helped a lot. We now have Spinning Strike procs, but they're not as effective. It is possible that Force in Balance did more damage as well as it only struck 3 targets. Force in Balance also had a range of 30 meters, meaning we could nuke people from a safe distance; and it was great utility too. Personally, I'd love to see the ability back to something like this: hit less targets but deal more damage and have a 30 meter range.

And finally, another thing we suffer from (shared issue with lethality operatives) is that we require a lot of GCDs to get our damage going. I don't really see the point of having both Sever Force and Force Breach. They could easily be combined into one ability. Perhaps Squelch could have a bit longer duration and allow its dot to be spread as well. Also, we need another button to click. Serenity Strike is awesome, but I'd like to see Project back in some shape or another (mainly because it's yellow damage and has a bit of range which suits the playstyle).

Those are my opinions after having been back for about a month.
Kinda missing the whole point of the spec. Your a dot spec and dot specs means attacking the many not the one. Deception's focus is on eliminating the one so If you want single target focus then play a deception sin. To do otherwise renders playing deception pointless. Deception is the king of one on one within the assassin class trio.

Further more what your basically angling for is to have more survival, more single target dmg and they ability to dot the many so a hybridization of the three specs into a super assassin A.k.a merc 2.0. Yes you'd basically be an OP merc we don't need another merc lite or sniper lite. Accept your role your a dot spec attack the many. As it stands now Bioware will never address the glaring obvious factors that make Merc's, snipers and jugs OP because all those I win kiddies who rely on those crutch classes would up and quit and they can't afford to lose that much of the player base. Otherwise they would have addressed this 3 years ago!

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
01.02.2019 , 11:31 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Kazz_Devlin View Post
Kinda missing the whole point of the spec. Your a dot spec and dot specs means attacking the many not the one. Deception's focus is on eliminating the one so If you want single target focus then play a deception sin. To do otherwise renders playing deception pointless. Deception is the king of one on one within the assassin class trio.

Further more what your basically angling for is to have more survival, more single target dmg and they ability to dot the many so a hybridization of the three specs into a super assassin A.k.a merc 2.0. Yes you'd basically be an OP merc we don't need another merc lite or sniper lite. Accept your role your a dot spec attack the many. As it stands now Bioware will never address the glaring obvious factors that make Merc's, snipers and jugs OP because all those I win kiddies who rely on those crutch classes would up and quit and they can't afford to lose that much of the player base. Otherwise they would have addressed this 3 years ago!
Balance was always a DoT-spec. The only thing I'm angling for is sacrificing some of our AoE potential for greater sustained damage. I'm not saying this because I want the spec to rival Infiltration/Assassination, I'm saying this because that is how the spec operated in the past and since then Bioware has taken steps to increase our AoE damage at the cost of our single-target damage. I would like to see them balance it out a bit better than what they have. In patch 1.7 I could kill a healer but these days it feels like I can barely threaten them unless there is someone else attacking them as well, and then it is not my damage that is the main threat but rather my controlling capabilities (interrupts & stuns).

As for our survivability; I don't think I suggested anything that would directly increase it, but kudos for reading between the lines. By increasing the range of our Force in Balance and having Project as a DPS ability, our survivability would go up because we'd be able to deal damage from a safer distance. This is something I truly enjoyed back in the day. Going against any other melee class in a straight up one on one meant you'd lose. You had to dart in and out of melee. Such survivability is way more fun than clicking a button and seeing your healthbar heal to full.

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
01.02.2019 , 04:14 PM | #34
You need to try to use Serenity Strike while you have 3 dots ticking on your target. I don't think Shadow Strike was ever part of the rotation, except maybe in the opener. Double Strike was your main attack that proc'ed your Force Crush aka Squelch.

Secondly, Serenity truly starts to shine when your target hits 30% health. Squelch hits like a freight train and your Spinning Strike is usable on CD.
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Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
01.02.2019 , 05:39 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
I don't think Shadow Strike was ever part of the rotation, except maybe in the opener. Double Strike was your main attack that proc'ed your Force Crush aka Squelch.
Shadow Strike was part of the Balance Shadow's rotation, but it was a long time ago. Back in the day when our Force Regeneration was managed through DoTs and our Force Suppression charges. In those days, every time a Force Suppression charge was consumed it returned a small amount of force. Compare that to today's model, where we have a chance every time we swing our lightsaber to be granted a small amount of force. I'd say that the previous design was objectively better because it was intrinsic; there was a synergy between the abilities you used the mechanics behind how the class operates. Compare these two videos:

1.7 force regen: https://youtu.be/P2CWIFU7bz4
2.0 (current) force regen: https://youtu.be/Y_xBADgTQfE

Sorry for going out on a bit of a tangent. With this I just want to say that I've been around for a long time and I've always had a keen interest for this spec. I'm a bit of a game design aficionado and, to me, the Balance spec was a perfect example of how abilities and mechanics could synergize in order to create compelling gameplay. What Bioware did to the spec in 2.0 was criminal. And because I liked the spec so much I have kept tabs on it over the years, even if it has not been my main spec. Today it might be. I recently returned to the game and I find the spec to be very enjoyable, despite some of its annoying shortcomings.

DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
01.02.2019 , 07:24 PM | #36
The only trouble with Hatred is the Force Management it's difficult to sustain if we had Dark Embrace like Deception it would take away the reliability to use SS as Filler and everyone knows you have to use it with Hatred, Deception you don't and even if for some reason your Force Management drops even though it shouldn't then you use Force Cloak (which you should only use to refresh recklessness Ofc) and Dark Embrace is active again for them healthy Force Regen points.
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Maxitrac
01.03.2019 , 12:35 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSealth View Post
The only trouble with Hatred is the Force Management it's difficult to sustain if we had Dark Embrace like Deception it would take away the reliability to use SS as Filler and everyone knows you have to use it with Hatred, Deception you don't and even if for some reason your Force Management drops even though it shouldn't then you use Force Cloak (which you should only use to refresh recklessness Ofc) and Dark Embrace is active again for them healthy Force Regen points.
tbh there is no issues at all with sin. I think sin is in a good place atm, not buffs or nerfs needed.
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DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
01.03.2019 , 04:37 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Maxitrac View Post
tbh there is no issues at all with sin. I think sin is in a good place atm, not buffs or nerfs needed.
How is fixing Hatred Force Management a buff? it allows a true rotation most classes that don't have a build up system shouldn't need to use their standard attack, whereas for JK/SW it's different because of the build up management system.

Truthfully Hatred just needs Dark Embrace for it's (While in stealth mode, or 15 seconds after leaving stealth mode, force regeneration is increased by 25%) However even the Darkswell Passive (Maul grants 15 seconds of Dark Embrace, While Dark Embrace is active all damage taken is reduced by 15%.) would make sense the pulls Hatred does is super dangerous and can really cause you die.

But either way if we just had Dark Embrace that would be a much welcomed change.
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Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
01.03.2019 , 07:55 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSealth View Post
The only trouble with Hatred is the Force Management it's difficult to sustain if we had Dark Embrace like Deception it would take away the reliability to use SS as Filler and everyone knows you have to use it with Hatred, Deception you don't and even if for some reason your Force Management drops even though it shouldn't then you use Force Cloak (which you should only use to refresh recklessness Ofc) and Dark Embrace is active again for them healthy Force Regen points.
Please check the videos in my post above yours, think you may find them interesting.

I think our force management was way better in classic SWTOR. Sadly, however, I don't think they could ever go back to that system. If they did we'd have far too much force regen.

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
01.03.2019 , 09:32 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Majspuffen View Post
Shadow Strike was part of the Balance Shadow's rotation, but it was a long time ago. Back in the day when our Force Regeneration was managed through DoTs and our Force Suppression charges. In those days, every time a Force Suppression charge was consumed it returned a small amount of force. Compare that to today's model, where we have a chance every time we swing our lightsaber to be granted a small amount of force. I'd say that the previous design was objectively better because it was intrinsic; there was a synergy between the abilities you used the mechanics behind how the class operates. Compare these two videos:

1.7 force regen: https://youtu.be/P2CWIFU7bz4
2.0 (current) force regen: https://youtu.be/Y_xBADgTQfE

Sorry for going out on a bit of a tangent. With this I just want to say that I've been around for a long time and I've always had a keen interest for this spec. I'm a bit of a game design aficionado and, to me, the Balance spec was a perfect example of how abilities and mechanics could synergize in order to create compelling gameplay. What Bioware did to the spec in 2.0 was criminal. And because I liked the spec so much I have kept tabs on it over the years, even if it has not been my main spec. Today it might be. I recently returned to the game and I find the spec to be very enjoyable, despite some of its annoying shortcomings.
I had a discussion a year or so ago with someone about this very thing. They told me I misremembered Shadow Strike as part of the rotation. Glad to see I was right! It's hard to remember the ancient times. This is back when Serenity Strike didn't even exist, right?
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Quote: Originally Posted by Trolltar View Post
I believe he's quoting a frequent contributor to these forums. His name is Strawman.
Quote: Originally Posted by Lunafox View Post
Thanks Rion Starbrah.