This is NOT FAIR. Every other class has better defensive skills than us.

 

Jedi Knight have Saber Ward (-25% damage and DEFENSE INCREASED ---> Deflect deflect deflect deflect) and Enure. And if you are Sentinel when you are about to die you can use that "you can't touch me lol" skill.

 

Shadows have that stupid "nothing affects me" and Deflection (+50% ranged and melee defense------> deflect deflect deflect deflect)

 

Even SMUGGLERS HAVE DEFENSIVE CD'S! And they CAN'T TANK! Defense Screen (15sec) and Dodge

 

What do we Vanguards have???? STUPID REACTIVE SHIELD that ONLY reduces damage 25% for 12 sec.

 

The other TANK classes have a defensive skill that gives them DEFENSE and damage protection and yet another Defensive CD to survive a bit more.......once I used my Shield I HAVE NOTHING.

 

 

And no, ADRENALINE RUSH is not a defensice CD. The ammount of life you restore with that skill is ridiculous.

 

 

Improve our Reactive Shield....or give us another defensive skill.

Troopers wear heavy armor

Troopers wear heavy armor

 

The actual difference between heavy and light armor is negligible.

 

BW has already stated numerous times that heavy armor is not performing the way that they thought that it would because of the vast number of attacks and abilities used by both other players and bosses that totally bypass it.

Troopers wear heavy armor

 

So Guardians. And their saber Ward is 100 times better than React.Shield. Saber ward gives 25% less damage (as React. Shield) and MORE DEFENSE STAT. I feel like an sponge when playing my vanguard....I have nothing to live a bit longer.

Even SMUGGLERS HAVE DEFENSIVE CD'S! And they CAN'T TANK! Defense Screen (15sec) and Dodge

 

Defense Screen isn't really a defensive cooldown, it's more similar to a heal than a defensive cooldown (defensive cooldowns tend to mitigate any amount of incoming damage for a set time - defense screen just absorbs a set amount of damage, like the Sage/Sorc bubble, and can be blown right through). And Dodge only lasts 3 seconds (4 if using the set bonus).

 

Just to clarify.

Defense Screen isn't really a defensive cooldown, it's more similar to a heal than a defensive cooldown (defensive cooldowns tend to mitigate any amount of incoming damage for a set time - defense screen just absorbs a set amount of damage, like the Sage/Sorc bubble, and can be blown right through). And Dodge only lasts 3 seconds (4 if using the set bonus).

 

Just to clarify.

 

I know I know. i'm only trying to say that everybody have more def. skills than a Vanguard. And the other tanks classes have much better Defensive skills.

 

 

pd: A 3-4 sec "dodge bubble" would save my life almost 90% I deal with a marauder in 1 vs 1. They use their "u can't touch me" I use it too.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Royox

 

I know I know. i'm only trying to say that everybody have more def. skills than a Vanguard. And the other tanks classes have much better Defensive skills.

 

 

pd: A 3-4 sec "dodge bubble" would save my life almost 90% I deal with a marauder in 1 vs 1. They use their "u can't touch me" I use it too.

 

You can stun someone through 'Guarded by the force' and 'Dodge'.

Can't keep you stunned through your entire reactive shield.

 

Different cooldowns are used for different situations.

Not to mention Dodge and Deflection only work on melee/ranged and are useless on force/tech.

Reactive shield works on everything.

Not to mention Dodge and Deflection only work on melee/ranged and are useless on force/tech.

Reactive shield works on everything.

 

So give to it a Defense buff like Saber Ward or the Assassin one and I will be fine. That's the "not fair" thing. My CD ONLY gives me 25% less damage. Guardian and Shadow CD gives them too something else like 50% more defense.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Royox

I've said this in other threads: buffing Reactive Shield is probably the easiest and least invasive way to fix the more glaring class balance issues for Troopers (especially Commandos). You could mix different options in each tree that provide Reactive Shield with a movement buff (like Hold the Line), shorter cool down (like the sage bubble), immunity to controlling effects (like Hunker Down) and AoE damage mitigation (like the Gunslinger's shield), or any combination of these. Imagine having Reactive Shield on a 60 sec cool down providing 25% dmg mitigation for 12 seconds along with a 30% speed buff, immunity from all movement impairing and controlling effects, interrupts, and leaps/pulls. You could *actually* carry the huttball for more than the 3-4 GCDs it takes to leap, stun and kill you. You might even have time to move the ball forward a little bit and pass it to a buddy. Imagine that. Players might actually welcome Commandos in WZs again, and healers might actually see them as worth healing. And given that every other AC (except smugglers and agents) have talents that enable them to completely disregard the physical characteristics of WZ maps (elevated platforms, firetraps, acid pools, and distance gaps) I don't think this would make Troopers (and certainly not Commandos) OP.

Jedi Knight have Saber Ward (-25% damage and DEFENSE INCREASED ---> Deflect deflect deflect deflect) and Enure.

The 25% damage reduction only works against Force and Tech, and the 50% increased defense only works against melee and ranged. The two does not stack.

 

I'm not saying that it's not a great ability, it is, but throughout your post it seems as though you don't take into account the difference between melee, ranged, tech, and force abilities, and that you don't take into account the difference between completely avoiding an attack, and reducing the damage from it.

 

Shadows have that stupid "nothing affects me" and Deflection (+50% ranged and melee defense------> deflect deflect deflect deflect)

Force Shroud lasts for 3 seconds and gives them defense from force and tech attacks.

Deflection, which gives them 50% damage reduction for 12 seconds, only works against ranged and melee attacks. I don't know how useful this is in PVE, since I don't know what types of abilities end-game PVE bosses use, but in PVP most abilities are not melee or ranged.

(Names of Assassin abilities since I don't remember what they are called for Shadows)

 

Reactive Shield gives you 25% damage reduction for 12 seconds, but it works against every type of damage in the game.

 

Even SMUGGLERS HAVE DEFENSIVE CD'S! And they CAN'T TANK! Defense Screen (15sec) and Dodge

...

And no, ADRENALINE RUSH is not a defensice CD. The ammount of life you restore with that skill is ridiculous.

Dodge lasts for 3 seconds and only gives defense against melee and ranged attacks (which, again, in PVP means that it won't work against most attacks).

 

Defense Screen will in total prevent about as much damage as Adrenaline Rush will heal you for.

If you consider Adrenaline Rush to heal you for so little that you can't even consider it as a defensive CD, then why do you not do the same with Defensive Screen?

Not only that, if you turn on Ion cell which kicks up your armor rating by an extra 60% almost doubles your absorption and shield rating, then click on reactive shield, come on, you take almost NO DAMAGE for 12 seconds.

 

How bout you try using it with a shield on and Ion cell, then try to cry about how much reactive shield sucks. And ontop of it, something else i do, i hit adrenaline rush at the same time...then you really take no damage.

 

COME ON THINK! Use and UNDERSTAND your abilities. Took me all of a minute to figure that out.

Not only that, if you turn on Ion cell which kicks up your armor rating by an extra 60% almost doubles your absorption and shield rating, then click on reactive shield, come on, you take almost NO DAMAGE for 12 seconds.

 

How bout you try using it with a shield on and Ion cell, then try to cry about how much reactive shield sucks. And ontop of it, something else i do, i hit adrenaline rush at the same time...then you really take no damage.

 

COME ON THINK! Use and UNDERSTAND your abilities. Took me all of a minute to figure that out.

 

maybe but for commando its garbage

No kidding, commandos can't use shields. You are not supposed to really be a front line tank as a commando. You have two missions heal and supporting gunfire. Vanguards are the tanks, commandos are not. Healer and heavy gunfire with the AC.

No kidding, commandos can't use shields. You are not supposed to really be a front line tank as a commando. You have two missions heal and supporting gunfire. Vanguards are the tanks, commandos are not. Healer and heavy gunfire with the AC.

 

Unfortunately, with all the gap closers that are available, staying in the rear and dishing out ranged damage is extremely difficult for a Commando to do.

 

A viable defensive shield is not to much to ask for when they get pulled or jumped to in order to save their hides.

No kidding, commandos can't use shields. You are not supposed to really be a front line tank as a commando. You have two missions heal and supporting gunfire. Vanguards are the tanks, commandos are not. Healer and heavy gunfire with the AC.

 

still its a trooper skill, and its usable by commando. and it is garbage for commando and DPS vanguard for that matter.

But even with the commando, use it with adreneline rush, it can help you in a sticky situation. Point is, commando shouldn't be out alone. Best idea is to pair up with some tanks and let them take the damage. i know there are times when you can't do that, and you just have to unload and show clear on the other guy, but personally speaking, try as much as possible.

 

I don't think it's garbage. I think it's useful. Better than having NOTHING, which is what they could of given you.

Unfortunately, with all the gap closers that are available, staying in the rear and dishing out ranged damage is extremely difficult for a Commando to do.

Totally true. All Commandos have to face-tank melee within melee-range more often than not, due to their chronic vulnerability to leaps/pulls and complete lack of an escape mechanic enabling them to regain range once they've been engaged by melee. This is a fact no matter how careful a commando is about positioning and re-positioning, LoSing, pillar-hugging etc. It's one of the reasons Commandos get focused right away by the lolSmash train whenever they show their faces in a WZ.

Totally true. All Commandos have to face-tank melee within melee-range more often than not, due to their chronic vulnerability to leaps/pulls and complete lack of an escape mechanic enabling them to regain range once they've been engaged by melee. This is a fact no matter how careful a commando is about positioning and re-positioning, LoSing, pillar-hugging etc. It's one of the reasons Commandos get focused right away by the lolSmash train whenever they show their faces in a WZ.

 

Smash Jugs / Focus Guardians don't have immunity to knock back/CC after leap, so use those when they close the distance and then continue to strafe (not backpedal!) to create even more distance.

Smash Jugs / Focus Guardians don't have immunity to knock back/CC after leap, so use those when they close the distance and then continue to strafe (not backpedal!) to create even more distance.

Most Commandos do this as a matter of course. You're still going to end up face-tanking melee, especially if you're Gunnery or Combat Medic and want to do something other than constantly run away from the fight while spamming Hammer Shot. If you want to launch a decent counter-attack or a heal then you're going to have to stop and any gap disappears quickly. Maybe if the knockback had a root it might keep melee off you for more than 3 seconds (the exception being multi-level terrain like in Huttball where the kb actually keeps them off you if you don't let them leap back up). Contrast this with the Gunslinger's immunity to leaps (when in cover), immunity to controlling effects (Hunker Down), rooted kb, followed by the talented kb on Aimed Shot, followed by the instant AoE mezz. *That's* the tool kit of a true ranged turret class. Edited October 24, 2012 by klham

Smash Jugs / Focus Guardians don't have immunity to knock back/CC after leap, so use those when they close the distance and then continue to strafe (not backpedal!) to create even more distance.

 

doesnt really work

What BW really need to do is split the def CD's into advanced classes to make it more even. I know as a Vanguard tank in a WZ if i pop reactive shield, adrenalin rush and smoke grenade i'm pretty much untouchable for the duration (mainly because i play with fools on our server who think its a good idea to give me full resolve at the same time lol). As for commandos i know its a downright pain to fend off melee dps but i think BW are thinking along the lines that commando's, even if they are spec'd for dps, can drop healing abilites if necessary. Just my thoughts but if DC's we're split properly into advanced classes we may see commando's back in the wz's

Not only that, if you turn on Ion cell which kicks up your armor rating by an extra 60% almost doubles your absorption and shield rating, then click on reactive shield, come on, you take almost NO DAMAGE for 12 seconds.

 

How bout you try using it with a shield on and Ion cell, then try to cry about how much reactive shield sucks. And ontop of it, something else i do, i hit adrenaline rush at the same time...then you really take no damage.

 

COME ON THINK! Use and UNDERSTAND your abilities. Took me all of a minute to figure that out.

 

If I have not enought problem for killing marauders and juggs now I have to stop moving, change cell (castied), use my Shield, and when its effect is finished I have to stop again and change my cell again?

 

I will be dead b4 activating my shield dude.

I will be dead b4 activating my shield dude.

 

The individual you're quoting to has no idea what he's talking about.

 

Without being in tank spec and tank gear, all you're gonna get out of a shield + tank spec is 20% shield and 20% absorb rating (which amounts to 4% mitigation, which is not that much, considering you get 5% from your baseline defense) and increased armor (~5k armor turns into ~8k, which is an improvement of ~30% to 42.5%). The shield is going to be almost entirely useless to you. Of course, by switching into Ion Cell, you completely gimp your damage output for the duration, assuming the person lets you get the cast off in the first place (it can be interrupted). With Reactive Shield active, the difference between taking 32.5% and 45% of incoming damage, which means you'd be taking 72% of the damage of someone that didn't stance dance. It's an improvement, but, considering how hard you're gimping your damage output, unless you've got friends to kill your opponent, you're going to die.

 

No matter how you gauge it, honestly, Reactive Shield is pretty bad as far as a survivability CD goes. Let's compare it to its competition (5% Defense and 30% K/E DR assumed since we're talking DPS here, this amounts to 33.5% effective mitigation):

 

Shadow (assumed to have 10% Defense and 25% K/E DR for 32.5% effective mitigation)

Deflection: same CD, same duration; the difference is between 25% DR and 50% Defense. A Trooper gets cranked up to 57.25% effective mitigation. A Shadow gets cranked up to 70% effective mitigation. They start off with pretty much effective mitigation without it and Shadows get cranked up *substantially* higher.

By the way, you probably noticed I'm ignoring the whole "M/R only" aspect of Deflection whereas Reactive Shield applies to everything. This is because Shadows also have Resilience which is stupidly amazing and pretty much takes care of any F/T attacks that they might face. Reactive Shield pales in comparison to *both* Resilience and Deflection.

 

Guardian (assumed to have 5% Defense and 30% K/E DR, which is identical to Troopers)

Saber Ward: same duration, but it's on a longer CD; Troopers still get up to 57.25% effective mitigation while Guardians are brought up to 86.5% mitigation (ignoring the fact that Guardians also get 100% m/r defense for the first 2 seconds of Saber Ward so it's even better). Saber Ward provides *even more* for Guardians. Because of the 25% F/T DR, against those attacks, Saber Ward breaks even with Reactive Shield. As such, since it's *so* much better for M/R attacks than Reactive Shield, even with the longer CD, I'm gonna have to err on the side of Guardians (not to mention that Guardians also get Enure and Focused Defense compared to just Adrenaline Rush, which also gives them an extra edge in the "self healing CD" department.

 

Sentinels (assumed to have 5% Defense and 25% K/E DR, for 28.75% effective mitigation)

Sentinels have Guarded By The Force (90 sec CD for 99% DR for 4 secs at the cost of 50% of your current hp; use this at low hp or while a healer is looking at you and you can lol at anyone that attempts to kill you), Saber Ward (just like the Guardian version, but, thanks to lower base mitigation, only brings them up to 66.25%, which is still substantially better than that of Troopers), Force Camouflage (45 second CD, 4 seconds of not being able to be targeted and 50/100% DR while it's active), and Rebuke (20% DR on a 60 sec CD that either gives you a 30 sec duration or 100% DR for 6 seconds, since, to have it end that quickly the target has to stop attacking you). There's no argument that *each and every single one* of those is better than Reactive Shield. If you insist on arguing, consider that there are 3 different abilities that provide the Sentinel with almost guaranteed 100% DR for a short period on relatively short CDs and there are *4* of them to the Trooper's 1 (2 if you count Adrenaline Rush, which is pretty laughably bad, honestly).

 

The only ACs that don't have direct competition for Reactive Shield are Sages (Force Armor + Force Mend doesn't really count) and Smugglers (Dodge + Defense Screen are about the same as what Sages get). *However*, both of these classes get superior mobility and/or utility (Concussive Round + Concussion Charge + Stock Strike doesn't really equal Rescue + Force Slow + Force Lift + Force Speed + Force Wave; don't even get me started on everything that the 2 different Smuggler ACs get...).

 

As survivability CDs are concerned, Reactive Shield is pretty much the absolute worst in the game, which puts Troopers in a pretty annoying state when you consider that it's their *only* major survivability CD, for Commandos *or* Vanguards. It's not like heavy armor even provides all that much. Even with light armor, the native buffs and abilities that the other classes get to "make up for it" turn heavy armor into a null point. The difference in performance just isn't there.

I always feel like I learn so much after reading Kitru's posts. Too bad that I really like my powertech and I am forced to deal with only this as my major cooldown.

The individual you're quoting to has no idea what he's talking about.

/snip

 

I don't eh. Well maybe it's just the new guy, but i thought as a tank my job is NOT to deal damage, but to be the guy that SOAKS damage. Or did I get the whole tank thing wrong?

 

I thought my job was to be that distraction[and hope like hell a healer is near by] take the damage from the other side and leave the guys who CAN do dps there so they can take down the enemy.

 

Or did i miss something? Cause if i did...please explain.