I read a lot about people missing addons. "I need healbots, dpsmeters, threatmeter..." You can do just fine without these, it's just a different game, we just have to adapt. Healbot, for instance, turns a very interesting game into something pulled out of a 90's Nintendo!

As for the meters, I have a suggestion: an <End Flashpoint/Operation Report>, just like in the end of Warzones. Voilá, you can consult who's doing their jobs right. DPS, Healing, Protection, MVP vote also (why not?)... It's all there.

Please NO addons. Don't turn this very enjoyable game into a big load of numbers popping out of my screen...

 

 

P.S. I do admit that some customization options on UI are needed.

 

Saying NO ADDONS is just as silly as demanding that they be mandatory.

 

The game needs addons to make UI customisation an option. I currently play across three-24 inch widescreens using eyefinity. The pain that is involved in equipping items to my companion by first having to mouse-over his equipped items, then checking the potential upgrade in my bag is huge.

 

Not to mention how out of the way the minimap and the side bars are. The UI NEEDS addons.

All you addon haters....

 

Please tell me, do you have any idea how difficult it is to keep track of a looting system for your guild without the use of addons? Like the EPGP addon was on WoW?

 

So before you bash on all aspects of addons, please consider the amount of utility addons that could make my/your/our life easier.

Edited February 1, 2012 by GabrielConnor

Without damage meters or healing meters

How can we tell we're playing at our full potential

How do you theorycraft the best rotations

Not knowing what provides the most efficient dps or healing

 

I think the anti addons peeps just like to hide their Performance

i don't think the add-on discussion is going to go anywhere. bioware would lose money because of the driven costs to add them. then some data restructuring would have to be done accross all the servers. it may not seem like much, but it would cost money to do it. to off-set the cost, they increase the cost of your renewal subscription. then we'll all be sitting here talking about why the game suddenly costs more money. in cost-benifit analysis, bioware just won't do it. it may be a nice thought, but it's a thought to have brought up during game development. now, it's too late, and we're stuck with what we have. there was three years where it went to game conventions. if enough people had spoken up, it would have happened. i never saw it mentioned in developer blogs. if they add an episode two, then i could see the add-ons going in with it.

Just fun to see people say you cant manage raids without meters, I wonder how we managed to raid hardcore content 6 days a week in everquest for 6 hours at a time. We had no add ons at all. Addons that tells you to move to the left, to the right, push button a, push button b just sickens me.

 

And now to the dps meters and threat meters, same there, never needed that stuff in other games, you actually watch what other ppl do in your grp and you will see whos a good player. Paying attention is a wonderful thing.

 

I do agree with being able to change your UI a bit is not a bad idea, but why addons? Just make it doable in game. Not that hard.

 

Patience, like the game as it is, some stuff are meant to be different if all was the same in all games, why then even play other games...

 

There's a difference between "made do because we had no other choice" and "make do because they can't be bothered adding a feature that is fairly common these days even in default UI's".

 

I can manage my raid okay at the moment, but it is not gamebreaking for me to be able to see who bothered to bring stims/healthpacks, or to look at a dps summary and see that one of my raiders is underperforming by a huge amount, or that one guy doesn't manage his aggro etc.

 

It's also not gamebreaking to have contextual information added to the existing floating combat text, such as procs which reset the cooldown on another ability. The information is presented already, but in the toolbars which means you aren't watching the fight, you're watching the toolbars... Or gear change wardrobe style setups which allow you to swap sets with ease rather than spending time clicking everything and making sure you've got the right earpiece/implants etc. Cooldown timers exist, is it really a problem to put them closer to the field of view in a compact and easy to read format?

 

These mods came in because the existing designs were inefficient. And if other people use them (particularly for PvE), how exactly does it ruin your day?

i never played an mmo before. i really would rather have someone show me the ropes before getting into the specifics of mmo's. i still don't know what a tank, dps, sentinel is. healer i get. i don't know their range of damage, which is the best to start with. i see a guy, i go after the guy. i win or loose. that's all i know so far. still don't know what my characters are good for except cedrax.

All you addon haters....

 

Please tell me, do you have any idea how difficult it is to keep track of a looting system for your guild without the use of addons? Like the EPGP addon was on WoW?

 

So before you bash on all aspects of addons, please consider the amount of utility addons that could make my/your/our life easier.

 

too good for pen and paper these days?

Without damage meters or healing meters

How can we tell we're playing at our full potential

How do you theorycraft the best rotations

Not knowing what provides the most efficient dps or healing

 

I think the anti addons peeps just like to hide their Performance

 

this is why i don't want addons. because then you have to tweak your rotation, and build through theorycrafting until you find the best build/rotation. that build/rotation becomds mandatory to play competetively, creating a need to develop the content to a higher standard to meet this. inevitably a class becomes required to be played in a very specific way, and all versatility is out the window.

The no addons argument sounds like it comes mostly from people that have been offended by math (damage meters/parsers) in past MMOs--someone said "hey Mr. Casual, can you fix your priority system (assuming you even have one) or spell rotation (assuming you have one) in order for OUR competitive or semi-competitive guild can make some progress and enjoy the game?"

 

As expected, Mr. Casual is confused because how could they possibly learn anything from others. Mr. Casual concludes that they couldn't possibly be doing anything wrong and refuses to change. The guild comes back again later and says "Hey, remember how you suck? Well you still do, and here is the math to back it up (shows parse data). Get better or we will replace you with someone that shares our committment to the game. Someone that is actually trying to improve their play and who is not wasting the rest of the guild's time by their terrible play and lack of dedication."

 

Of course this rarely results in much improvement on behalf of Mr. Casual because he is too offended to reflect on his on inadequacies and would much rather prefer to get mad at the math and the parser program that generated it--pesky facts make Mr. Casual look silly.

 

Mr. Casual thinks "Leave me alone, I just want to play my way."

 

Unfortunately for Mr. Casual, he finds he is often granted his wish for solitude as he loses his raid and/or guild spot and is forced to find other casuals who also don't care about their level of play.

 

The lesson is simple--don't hate the tools that competitive players use to improve their play; instead, find a casual guild or group that doesn't care if can't handle the competition and pressure to improve.

 

When you join a competitive group or guild, you need to accept that such people HAVE THEIR OWN WAY THEY LIKE TO PLAY AS WELL. So find a group to play with that shares your mindset, or at least grow a thicker skin so as to not be so easily offended by your terrible damage results.

 

Regarding all of the other things people have mentioned that addons can provide, why would you want less options? You don't have to use any of the addons, but why deprive other people of even having the option? Seems rediculous.

For the Love of Luke Skywalker! I don't want to be some stupid guild that requires me do use something to the effect of Deadly Boss Mods, Recount, and Omen threat meters. In other words, NO EFFFING MODS FOR THIS GAME!!!!

The no addons argument sounds like it comes mostly from people that have been offended by math (damage meters/parsers) in past MMOs--someone said "hey Mr. Casual, can you fix your priority system (assuming you even have one) or spell rotation (assuming you have one) in order for OUR competitive or semi-competitive guild can make some progress and enjoy the game?"

 

As expected, Mr. Casual is confused because how could they possibly learn anything from others. Mr. Casual concludes that they couldn't possibly be doing anything wrong and refuses to change. The guild comes back again later and says "Hey, remember how you suck? Well you still do, and here is the math to back it up (shows parse data). Get better or we will replace you with someone that shares our committment to the game. Someone that is actually trying to improve their play and who is not wasting the rest of the guild's time by their terrible play and lack of dedication."

 

Of course this rarely results in much improvement on behalf of Mr. Casual because he is too offended to reflect on his on inadequacies and would much rather prefer to get mad at the math and the parser program that generated it--pesky facts make Mr. Casual look silly.

 

Mr. Casual thinks "Leave me alone, I just want to play my way."

 

Unfortunately for Mr. Casual, he finds he is often granted his wish for solitude as he loses his raid and/or guild spot and is forced to find other casuals who also don't care about their level of play.

 

The lesson is simple--don't hate the tools that competitive players use to improve their play; instead, find a casual guild or group that doesn't care if can't handle the competition and pressure to improve.

 

When you join a competitive group or guild, you need to accept that such people HAVE THEIR OWN WAY THEY LIKE TO PLAY AS WELL. So find a group to play with that shares your mindset, or at least grow a thicker skin so as to not be so easily offended by your terrible damage results.

 

Regarding all of the other things people have mentioned that addons can provide, why would you want less options? You don't have to use any of the addons, but why deprive other people of even having the option? Seems rediculous.

 

/inbefore flame

 

This pretty much sums up why i think people are against addons and also a solution for those people. Ofcourse noone likes to hear that they arent pulling their weight and therefore ignore most of this yet again. +1 internets to Sir Smithington nevertheless.

 

Posting to show my support for addons. A simple damage meter would go a long way making the game more enjoyable.

The problem with add-ons is that they change how the game evolves. I've played WoW, I didn't have a problem with add-ons at start. Hell, I even used them. But eventually, they became so widely used and made so many raid encounters easier, developers started to design encounters with the use of these add-ons in mind.

In reality, it became sort of obligatory to use add-ons if you wanted to compete in any way.

 

Add-ons give individual add-on developers the power to influence game evolution. I want that power to remain solely in Bioware's hands.

 

Not to mention the whole gearscore debacle/drama that wow has seen.

 

When that happened, WoW slowly ABSORBED those addons. I want customized addons for my UI. The current UI is horrible.

For the Love of Luke Skywalker! I don't want to be some stupid guild that requires me do use something to the effect of Deadly Boss Mods, Recount, and Omen threat meters. In other words, NO EFFFING MODS FOR THIS GAME!!!!

 

Then don't join said "STUPID" guild that simple.

I am okay with a threat meters, dot/hot timers, action bar addons. etc but I am 110% against damage parsers.

yap, eaven a simple damage meters would be nice. I myself, want to take 110% out of my character, do the best or more with it. Whats the point of buying a ferrari, if you are only using first 3 gears.

-B

Considering I raided with 3 healing classes in WoW... Yes I know what it does and probably much better than you do. What the hell was your point? It is another addon some people are whining about needing in the game that IS NOT NEEDED!

 

Since you played that card, I raided with all 4 healing classes in WoW. But people often mention healbot because of the "bot" part that it did pre-2.0. They think that healbot is something that makes you heal automatically. But it's just another raid frames with built-in click configuration. And that's something I would very much like in SWTOR. Not healbot though, I use customized Pitbull, and after all these years, Blizzard's own raid frames aren't too bad anymore. The healing action is in the unit frames, I need to be able to customize them. I don't see how this could possibly hurt anyone else's gaming experience.

Hate to say it but only baddies clamor for addons.

 

If you can't feel the connection between your healing and your damage, between your threat and your environment then you are NOT a very good PC gamer. It is as simple as that.

 

That people can espouse being "elite" while they affix training wheels to their bike is almost too absurd for words.

 

How can you "feel the connection between your damage" when you don't see a single number of outgoing damage on your screen? Not to mention "feelings" are very inaccurate because of selective memory. It's too easy to focus on those few big crits and overestimate that ability's overall effect, when it could be insignificant in the big picture.

Edited February 1, 2012 by apla

Where add ons become a requirement, it speaks more of a game developers failing to recognise and deal with players and the games needs.

There is always a group of players that says a game is too easy. And you can bet they'll use all the add-ons. The game isn't easy to them because they are not learning everything they can about the game and use everything they can to master an optimum play-style. So they will inevitably use any add-ons that help understanding, learning and mastering the play-style.

But the type of add-ons that give clear, actionable information that you would not have without them, where you normally would have to rely on guesstimation and experience, they give you a factual advantage. Without them, there is a human margin of error that you have to minimize by experience, with them, the margin of error is gone as the add-on tells you what you would otherwise have to guess or estimate. The add-on will inevitably make the game easier for a player that is looking for a challenge. Of course this player will demand a higher difficulty.

 

By what rationale should the game developer provide the player with these add-ons that he craves, but not provide this player the challenge he craves?

 

It seems a lot simpler to me to not provide add-ons like that at all, and keep the game at a challenging level without the tools.

/signed. Big time.

The problem with add-ons is that they change how the game evolves. I've played WoW, I didn't have a problem with add-ons at start. Hell, I even used them. But eventually, they became so widely used and made so many raid encounters easier, developers started to design encounters with the use of these add-ons in mind.

In reality, it became sort of obligatory to use add-ons if you wanted to compete in any way.

 

Add-ons give individual add-on developers the power to influence game evolution. I want that power to remain solely in Bioware's hands.

 

Not to mention the whole gearscore debacle/drama that wow has seen.

 

When it comes to addon, people have these weird ideas about them and you are perpetuating this kind ot thinking. First of all, the encounters already have everything that WoW have as information (you have alerts: Soa is on a frenzy) and there is text emotes that are telling you what is happening next. The encounters in WoW can be beat without DBM, in fact in Cata I never bothered using DBM since the game provided enough information. So Blizzard never designed the encounter with add-ons in mind.

 

Add-ons give individual add-on developers the power to influence game evolution. I want that power to remain solely in Bioware's hands.

So this is totally false. Even in hardcore guilds, some people don't even use addons that matters to beat encounters. The only addons that helps somehow are the ones that the default UI sucked at displaying in example the raid frames but that kind of UI customization is supposedly coming.

 

As for meters, there are enough threads about this that I won't answer this one.

By what rationale should the game developer provide the player with these add-ons that he craves, but not provide this player the challenge he craves?

 

It seems a lot simpler to me to not provide add-ons like that at all, and keep the game at a challenging level without the tools.

Even though you make an interesting point, you can still get everything addons would provide mathematically and through trial and errors on certain mobs. Instead of being instant, it will take slightly longer for people to figure it all out, but when the community will grow older, this will become common knowledge and it will still provide the exact same result that the addon would do.

 

What you won't know without a meter is the difference with that empirical value which determines depending on the fights what specs are better for certain fights and what persons are playing better. There seems to be a stigma which I never experienced, but must exist if so many people are saying it, that people will be kicked out of a group if they do don't good enough. Well that all depends on the groups you have. When someone is doing bad I've seen more than once people stepping to the plate and trying to help this person. As much as people like to say that they don't care how bad they are doing, nobody like to suck when you can improve with simple solutions. I've had so many people increasing their dps by 50% in instances in WoW after a few advices and I never had a single person not thanking me or the person who helped them...

 

Anyway the horse is rotting right now, nothing left to beat...

@OP: sure it's possible to play without addons. It's also possible to drive a car without brakes or seats. It's very uncomfortable and cumbersome but it's totally possible.

 

However, when I buy a new car for a fairly steep price then I expect it to have the same comforts and other features that all the previous cars had. Otherwise it's simply a badly designed car (and the manufacturer would be shredded in all the reviews of their product - even if he went and stuck some Star Wars stickers on the sides).

 

 

Edit:

I also find the argument about addons becoming "mandatory" very funny. Obviously anyone who wants to play as well as humanly possible (and has the cognitive abilities to do so) will use any and all tools that are available to them. That starts with simple things like reading a guide before facing each encounter - by that logic you'd have to forbid guides as well because they give people that can read an obvious advantage.

 

Not allowing addons basically only makes it harder for semi-competent players (90% of any MMOs community) to play semi-decent. The good players will simply use some other alternative to achieve the same functionality. A good example are mouse-over macros: they decrease reaction time by a significant amount - anyone not using them will always suck compared to someone using them. In WOW (or Rift or any other WOW-clone) you simply need to find a guide on how to create a mouse-over macro and adapt it to your spell names. In SWTOR you need either horrendously expensive peripherals (G15/G19, Naga mouse etc.) or other tools. Again, the good players already have those features - it's the average semi-decent players that now suck even more compared to the competent ones.

 

Why make it harder for the weak players instead of trying to give them tools to try and compensate for some of their suckiness? (Because, again, anyone who is competent already has gaming hardware that supports things like macros and mouse-over). I see no logic in that what so ever.

Edited February 1, 2012 by gaalon

well, like i said, it takes $ to do add-ons. it may be a feature you pay for to have. bioware isn't dumb enough to blanketly give them to you for nothing. they do, you're going to pay plently of money out of your own bank account to get them (paypal, debit/credit card). not saying you shouldn't have them. saying it will cost the consumer at the individual level. it's bad marketing to just give it to you when it was never put in the game to begin with. they'd loose money. if i were bioware, i'd charge you to off-set the cost of developing it.

@OP: sure it's possible to play without addons. It's also possible to drive a car without brakes or seats. It's very uncomfortable and cumbersome but it's totally possible.

 

However, when I buy a new car for a fairly steep price then I expect it to have the same comforts and other features that all the previous cars had. Otherwise it's simply a badly designed car (and the manufacturer would be shredded in all the reviews of their product - even if he went and stuck some Star Wars stickers on the sides).

 

 

Edit:

I also find the argument about addons becoming "mandatory" very funny. Obviously anyone who wants to play as well as humanly possible (and has the cognitive abilities to do so) will use any and all tools that are available to them. That starts with simple things like reading a guide before facing each encounter - by that logic you'd have to forbid guides as well because they give people that can read an obvious advantage.

 

Not allowing addons basically only makes it harder for semi-competent players (90% of any MMOs community) to play semi-decent. The good players will simply use some other alternative to achieve the same functionality. A good example are mouse-over macros: they decrease reaction time by a significant amount - anyone not using them will always suck compared to someone using them. In WOW (or Rift or any other WOW-clone) you simply need to find a guide on how to create a mouse-over macro and adapt it to your spell names. In SWTOR you need either horrendously expensive peripherals (G15/G19, Naga mouse etc.) or other tools. Again, the good players already have those features - it's the average semi-decent players that now suck even more compared to the competent ones.

 

Why make it harder for the weak players instead of trying to give them tools to try and compensate for some of their suckiness? (Because, again, anyone who is competent already has gaming hardware that supports things like macros and mouse-over). I see no logic in that what so ever.

 

terrible, terrible example about the car. you are taking things out of something that comes standard.

 

a better example would be that it is possible to drive a car as it comes standard off the lot. I don't need to add a radar detector, turbo charger, larger wheels, digital odometer, fuel effeciency module, custom dash and radio display, or any other number of (OMG!!!) Add-ons in order to have a slight edge over other drivers.

terrible, terrible example about the car. you are taking things out of something that comes standard.

 

a better example would be that it is possible to drive a car as it comes standard off the lot. I don't need to add a radar detector, turbo charger, larger wheels, digital odometer, fuel effeciency module, custom dash and radio display, or any other number of (OMG!!!) Add-ons in order to have a slight edge over other drivers.

 

Nah, there's no problem with the analogy.

 

Any other modern MMO you get this: http://goo.gl/r775P

 

With SW:TOR you get this: http://goo.gl/Ihg9K

 

It took till about 1930 for car instrumentation to resemble what's modern before then, most things were available as addons. But hey, good drivers can feel the connection between their vehicle and the environment. People that need such luxury addons are baddies that should l2drive right?

 

Why make it harder for the weak players instead of trying to give them tools to try and compensate for some of their suckiness? (Because, again, anyone who is competent already has gaming hardware that supports things like macros and mouse-over). I see no logic in that what so ever.

 

See, I would use said hardware if I could, but if I were to use a mouse for a prolonged period of time, my wrist would be even more of a mess than it is usually (Carpal Tunnel sucks. I use a trackball to prevent wrist strain.).