I have always been extremely interested in the Iron fist spec and the logic behind the spec as a tanking build. Whenever I look at the top of the assault tree and how they built in ways to reduce the cooldown of the AC's only defensive CDs I wonder why really people do not try to spec into them.

Here are the 2 specs that come to mind when I try making this

Spec 1 http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801GoMrbZZbIbrdRGb.2

Spec 2 http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801GoMrdMbZZbIbrdRM.2

Reflexive shield looks like it would be an awesome move, reducing reactive shield 3 seconds every 1.5 seconds hit, that's like 3 GCD for the price of 1! Now while it seems pointless for a DPS to have this talent a tank should have somebody guarded that is taking damage in the fight, so wouldn't this simply guarantee a tank who is switching his guard to only have possibly a 15 second downtime on reactive shield?(120/4.5=26.67-12=14.67) I can't see why not try it.

I do not actually have a VG/PT so I wouldn't be able to actually test this myself in regards to ammo management, but my hope is what while most of the damage in pvp is not effected by shields there really only is 1 AC where you shouldn't be able to get ammo back from your shield shielding something. I also hope that the dot from IG(while expensive) still counts to reducing the ammo cost of HiB when shot at a burning target, while also giving the damage buff to burning targets taken in spec 1

Please can anybody tell me if either of these can be viable in pvp for tanking?

Edit: I think my math is wrong, can anybody check?

Sadly, neither of your specs is viable in PvP (or in general, sorry ).

You seem to be planning on staying in Ion cell, which means your primary damage sources as Assault are doing almost nothing: Plasmacell amounts to HIGH basedamage, and HIB as a main source of Burstdamage is negligible due to missing most of ist core talents.

To be frank: in your fist spec your problably doing LESS damage than in a full tank spec. Missing both pressure and burst damage while still beiing rather squishy. Shielding is not a good choice of damageprevention in PvP due to the fact that most important attacks ignore shield altogether and the fact of enemy crits pushing shieldchance of the attackchart.

Your almost totaly speccing for utility talents, some of which are not very strong to begin with... your not going to add anything of impact to a BG group.

Vanguard has some great options for Hybrid builds... Shield/Assault is not among them

Having more than a handfull of points in the Assault tree in fact forces you to play in Plasmacell.

Testing new (and sometimes rather strange) talent builds is great fun, sometimes such a test is going to yield the result: "DON'T!"

Um... The idea was not to do a ton of damage in pvp, rather to increase the uptime of defensive CDs and be a nice meat shield.

Sorry if I gave the idea that I wanted to do tons of damage, I DON'T

Edit: sorry was a little rough with that, I just assumed that when you were tanking, it would be acceptable to have a lower damage output if you wanted to try to tank, just like I assumed to use ion cell and assumed a shield and assumed tank gear

Um... The idea was not to do a ton of damage in pvp, rather to increase the uptime of defensive CDs and be a nice meat shield.

 

Sorry if I gave the idea that I wanted to do tons of damage, I DON'T

 

Edit: sorry was a little rough with that, I just assumed that when you were tanking, it would be acceptable to have a lower damage output if you wanted to try to tank, just like I assumed to use ion cell and assumed a shield and assumed tank gear

You are totaly right that as a tank in PvP you are going to lose some amount of damage compared to a DD...

but what you are gaining is much more than just survivability.

The Tactics talenttree is awesome for creating hybrid Vanguards, Assault isnt (excepting Tactic/Assault hybrid builds).

Edit: got your point at last ;P

Your uptime on reflective shield isnt ever to be near the theoretical maximum: Most enemies in PvP AVOID punching the tank, prefering softer targets... which the tank tries to support via Guard/Taunts etc.

Furthermore, most players will switch targets once your reflective shield comes up if another targed is available.

Unlike in PvE Tanks dont get beat up more than anyone else.

If all you can do is stand there being hard many enemies will ignore you altogether.

The wording on the Reflexive shield talent implies, that ANY damage, including transfered to you via Guard is going to lower the CD. That might give you quite good damagereduction, but being a "meatshield only" in objective based PvP isnt going to get you anywhere:

Your guard and taunts reduce the enemies damageoutput... but by being less able to actively participate in combat than you could be as either shieldspec with Storm/charge goodness or decent damageoutput you are reducing the capabilities of your team more than you are hurting the enemy.

It's a clever idea, but you're just giving up too much to get too little in my opinion.

9% aim, Storm, 4% damage reduction at all times (Ion Shield and Power Armor), free explosive surges (or Charge! which is awesome in Butthaul), 6% shield chance, Power Screen, and Energy Blast. That is some great stuff!

And you're getting incendiary round, more damage on burning targets (incendiary round is your only way to get targets on fire, and it is expensive and now short range), stealth detection, and a theoretically shorter cool-down on reactive shield.

I'd like your builds more if we could change cells instantly (rather than a 1.5 s cast). But with the cast time, it really makes sense to stay in ion cell, which makes most of the talents in assault a waste.

Considering that a Vanguard is supposed to be a RANGED tank, why did they shorten the range like that on incendiary round?

Makes no damn sense that one of our most powerful moves to put a person on fire where we can unload damange, and we have to close to damn near melee range.

I think the devs are just making it so most will go jedi/sith if they want to pvp.

They are screwing over the non-force using classes.

I think we should stop thinking about the Vanguard as "ranged" and start thinking "mid-ranged." IE, 10 m.

Few vanguard tanks will have incendiary round. The presence of incendiary round in the talent tree indicates that you are probably a damage dealer. And it didn't make a lot of sense, at least to me, for damage dealing "mid-ranged" Vanguards to have the same range as damage dealing "ranged" Commandos. I played assault a lot in PVP before the 1.4 ranged nerf, and frankly, it was just too easy at all ranges.

Considering that a Vanguard is supposed to be a RANGED tank, why did they shorten the range like that on incendiary round?

Vanguard was never supposed to be a ranged AC, neither as tank nor as Damagedealer. We may have (had) a few options do fight outside our optimal range of 4m (10m if Stockstrike is on CD) but any Vanguard is a Meleefighter first and foremost. Stockstrike is the main attack of Vanguard tanks as it autotrigger Ioncell and may reset its CD on shielding... and has a range of 4m.

Having access to Incendiary round mean having at least 11 points in Assault, some of which HAVE to correspond to Plasmacell meaning they are dead and wasted while tanking. This is NOT a good idea.

Makes no damn sense that one of our most powerful moves to put a person on fire where we can unload damange, and we have to close to damn near melee range.

Incendiary round is a rather weak attack, its Ammo/damage ratio is absolutely atrocius even on a full Assault Vanguard. Without points in Burnout and Assaulttrooper its even weaker... its ONLY saving grace was its increased ranged, allowing to preapply a burneffect while closing in on our target.

Since 1.4 it should only be used (in PvP )if a) you can be totaly sure of its running the full duration (no dying, and more important: no dispell) or b) if you reallyreallyREALLY need the ~100 DPS of sustained damage, since it has NO burstpotential, to slowly burn down a target.

In PVE only a) applies, as b) should be given. NEVER Incendiary round a target that hasnt got 18secs TTL, and only reapply at full Ammo or with Reserve Powercell.

The range change has therefore nerfed our longrange opening in PvP, as i believe was intended (and necessary).

In PvE nothing has changed, apart from the first 3 seconds of combat, as we now open up with Sticky Grenade instead of Assault Plastique while moving into MELEE range.

Few vanguard tanks will have incendiary round. The presence of incendiary round in the talent tree indicates that you are probably a damage dealer. And it didn't make a lot of sense, at least to me, for damage dealing "mid-ranged" Vanguards to have the same range as damage dealing "ranged" Commandos..

This is totaly correct, imo. However the inreased range ONLY applied to the opening of combat even before 1.4, as staying on range, whether forced by mechanics or by preference, led to a drastic loss of damage.

Even if lowering the CD on Reactive Shield and Adrenaline Rush was that important to you, one of the main problems here is that you have both talented Ion Cell and Plasma Cell. You can only ever use one of these.

For example, if damage mitigation is important, then you are probably using Ion Cell. However then spending talent points on Ionic Accelerator does nothing, and you end up spending 5 points for High Friction Bolts because Superheated Plasma does nothing (and the Plasma burn refresh in HFB does nothing).

On the other hand, if you're using Plasma Cell, then Neural Overload and Ion Overload will do nothing.

Even if lowering the CD on Reactive Shield and Adrenaline Rush was that important to you, one of the main problems here is that you have both talented Ion Cell and Plasma Cell. You can only ever use one of these.

 

For example, if damage mitigation is important, then you are probably using Ion Cell. However then spending talent points on Ionic Accelerator does nothing, and you end up spending 5 points for High Friction Bolts because Superheated Plasma does nothing (and the Plasma burn refresh in HFB does nothing).

 

On the other hand, if you're using Plasma Cell, then Neural Overload and Ion Overload will do nothing.

The only points in plasma cell are the ones necessary to progress to the next tier. The 3 points in superheated plasma are taken to take the HiB buff(30% armor pen) and ammo reduction on it, as I assume that using IG will give the ammo recovery buff that is stated in High Friction Bolts. You say that if I'm in ion cell then plasma cell does not refresh? NO F**KING WAY. The 1 point in Ion Accelerator is there because there is no other place to put it.

I know the spec is meh, but at leas think before you type

You really really really want to either go full blown shield spec or do the ironfist build for pvp tanking as a vanguard.

I've played a vanguard tank since early access. I have an agressive playstyle so the iron fist suits me very well. I have all dps gear except the shield.Our main goal in pvp is damage reduction for our team and guarding the healer.

both single target and aoe taunt everytime it's off CD. Ion puls and explosive surge should both be specced to reduce damage by a further 5%, use those also as much as possible. I went iron fist so I could actually do some decent damage against anyone attacking the healer I am hopefully guarding. if there's no healer to guard, I guard a dps and go on offense. Still spreading those taunts, ion pulses and surges everywhere.

Some folks run 31/10 shield spec and use all dps gear except the impalnts weapon and shield.

Either is viable in pvp.

The issue with both of the specs that you designed is that you give up a whole lot to get very little. Since you have to go up the Assault tree to get Adrenaline Fueled and Reflexive Shield, and you want to use Ion Cell, you're investing points in fringe skills that have literally zero benefit: Parallactic Combat Stims and Degauss at the very least come to mind. All this to achieve lowered cooldowns on Reactive Shield and Adrenaline Rush, which, in the tanking tree, the former can be partially addressed by increasing passive damage mitigation while the latter has a CDR talent in the Shield Specialist tree. The opportunity cost of choosing those skills to create a Shield/Assault hybrid is far too high.

Since the Assault tree completely revolves around Plasma Cell and exploiting the burn effect, it simply isn't good enough for Shield/Assault hybridization. Shield/Tactics works much better in its ability to pressure while maintaining a semblance of tankiness (I'll refer to this role as a pressuring tank). In going up the Tactics tree, while you need to avoid the HEC-related talents, you gain critical PvP talents that will help you function as a pressuring tank: Containment Tactics, Tactical Tools, and Frontline Defense all allow you to maintain pressure on your opponents in ways the Assault tree cannot provide with better/more available CC such as your stun, your pull, and your interrupt, which all allow you to easily frustrate opponents attempting to damage your teammates or take an objective.

The Shield/Tactics specification I would run is 21/20/0 Shield Specialist/Tactics. I avoid Static Surge because I firmly believe Explosive Surge is positively awful, choosing instead Battering Ram as a way to manage Stockstrike's ammo consumption. I chose Storm over Hold the Line, as Storm gives better overall mobility, while providing an interrupt and a root, which are vital CC for your role as a pressuring tank. Vanguards may not necessarily as utilitarian as the Shadow tanks and Guardian tanks, but your DPS output should be high enough in this hybrid spec such that your unparalleled combination of mobility and DPS will be able to pressure healers and objectives adequately.

I will say, though, Bioware has been picking off many of my favorite Vanguard builds: first, Carolina Parakeet, and recently, Iron Fist. It makes me sad. And if they had left those specs alone, you probably wouldn't be having this talent specialization problem, ha.

The only points in plasma cell are the ones necessary to progress to the next tier. The 3 points in superheated plasma are taken to take the HiB buff(30% armor pen) and ammo reduction on it, as I assume that using IG will give the ammo recovery buff that is stated in High Friction Bolts. You say that if I'm in ion cell then plasma cell does not refresh? NO F**KING WAY. The 1 point in Ion Accelerator is there because there is no other place to put it.

 

I know the spec is meh, but at leas think before you type

wat?

Why suddenly turn into a hardass?

Look, I'll be blunt: Your specs suck. The reason why I felt like I had to point out the specific talents for you was because your spec is so bad that I didn't know if you even understand those basic concepts. You're wasting a lot of points to gain very little.

 

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I agree with you in all but one thing: that spec you posted. I don't understand some of your choices. You took rebraced armor over Ion Shield, meager dps increase like Serrated Blades over bigger increase like Heavy Stock and you bypassed two of the most useful dmg reductions from Power Armor and Static Field. No no no. Passive global mitigation is the king. You should get that over anything else as tank. Armor rating is unly useful for kinetic and energy attacks, everything else bypasses armor so 16% armor increase actually offers less protection than 2% passive mitigation. The bleed from Gut is laughable, you don't need it for anything else than to prevent restealthing or whatever. Stockstrike is your bread and butter and you should try to buff that, not Gut.

Also the point in blaster augs is useless, since 8% ion cell damage is meh to say the least. Aside Storm, a full Tactics build with Ion cell will perform better than your build. Same mitigation with much more utility.

But we're talking about tanking, so personally i would run this: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801GRGb0RroZRcrrobZo.2 as hybrid, but probably a full ST build would be better.

RIP Ironfist though, it was a beautiful thing.