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Consider changing the ranked ELO rating system to a wins/losses system

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Consider changing the ranked ELO rating system to a wins/losses system

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
02.25.2019 , 10:42 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Jinre_the_Jedi View Post
Because you will never get rid of cheaters so long as rewards exist.
Exactly. That's why you implement a much more difficult system to manipulate and cheat. The problem is the way ELO is gained, rating is gained is it's far too easy to cheat. When people see a very easily manipulated system they are more likely to try to cheat it.

How would they cheat a wins/loss system? If you only gain by winning, exactly what would be the easy way to cheat for wins? Win trade hundreds of wins? I doubt it. if they did it, they would get caught much easier than they do now when they only have to fool the system with a handful number of matches.

I don't doubt people will cheat even in a system as I propose, but the amount of cheating will decrease for sure.

In theory, with that decrease in shady behavior will be an increase in good matches. With less focus on ensuring wins there will be less toxicity in the matches which in turn means lesser skilled players will be more welcome to play ranked. They will be welcomed more, and not raged on with blame if a match is lost. Losses come at a really high cost when it's ELO being lost and many players react poorly when they see someone as the reason for them losing ELO.

I understand what you are saying when you say one form of rating currency is simply being traded for another... but the fact is the currency we are comparing have two different worth amounts.

In a win/losses point system, a loss isn't a big deal, in the ELO system losses are a huge deal. This makes the currency of an ELO win far more important than a win in a wins/losses point system win. Just as a loss in an ELO system is extremely damaging while one loss in a wins/losses system is hardly significant.

This should cause less toxicity and more participation for ranked.
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Jinre_the_Jedi's Avatar


Jinre_the_Jedi
02.25.2019 , 10:49 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
Win trade hundreds of wins?
Yes. They will do exactly this. Because degenerate people will be degenerate regardless of the cost in time. I think your biggest issue is that you fail to understand just how low some people are willing to go when it comes to cheating. If people want to break the rules, it doesn't matter if it takes them 2 hours or 100 hours, someone, somewhere will invest the time to cheat.

You have too much faith in people man

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
02.25.2019 , 10:59 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Jinre_the_Jedi View Post
Yes. They will do exactly this. Because degenerate people will be degenerate regardless of the cost in time. I think your biggest issue is that you fail to understand just how low some people are willing to go when it comes to cheating. If people want to break the rules, it doesn't matter if it takes them 2 hours or 100 hours, someone, somewhere will invest the time to cheat.

You have too much faith in people man
I have no faith in man.

I do have faith in making cheating harder and easier to detect. Also, I keep pointing out all the ways ELO causes social issues in the game. It manifests the majority of the toxicity.

If someone decides they are going to win trade hundreds of wins, they will be far easier to catch and we are no more worse than we are now.

Right now, solo ranked is nothing but trolls, cesspool toxic scumbags, and win trade cheaters.

The fact is as it stands now, there's nothing to lose by trying a different rating system because the present state of ranked has never been worse than it is now.

What would be lost if they tried a wins/loss scoring system? That's probably a better question to ask because I have not seen or heard any defense of how keeping the ELO system is a better idea.
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Jinre_the_Jedi's Avatar


Jinre_the_Jedi
02.25.2019 , 11:23 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
I have no faith in man.

I do have faith in making cheating harder and easier to detect. Also, I keep pointing out all the ways ELO causes social issues in the game. It manifests the majority of the toxicity.

If someone decides they are going to win trade hundreds of wins, they will be far easier to catch and we are no more worse than we are now.

Right now, solo ranked is nothing but trolls, cesspool toxic scumbags, and win trade cheaters.

The fact is as it stands now, there's nothing to lose by trying a different rating system because the present state of ranked has never been worse than it is now.

What would be lost if they tried a wins/loss scoring system? That's probably a better question to ask because I have not seen or heard any defense of how keeping the ELO system is a better idea.
I think the fact that a certain someone who's name started with a J on EU servers was able to literally fly hack and map hack outside of the arena and not get a ban for almost a year goes to show that regardless of how easy it is to detect a cheater, BioWare Austin either doesn't have the man power or doesn't find it a priority to get rid of these players like they claim they do.

As far as trying a new rating system, I have no problem. In fact, I couldn't care less if Solo Ranked didn't exist and neither did rewards, I would just move to group ranked when my friends are on and play Regular Unranked Arenas when they're offline. But regardless of my personal feelings on the matter, it just seems like a waste of dev time to move from one system where people cheat and rage to another system where people cheat and rage.


Even in a win/loss system, are you implying that type of people who currently rage at their team mates for losing Elo during a loss won't rage at their team mates for wasting their time with a loss? At the end of the day, people rage because they see their Time as an asset and backwards progression with Elo is a waste of time. Similarly, a complete lack of progression or being stagnant by losing will provide the same negative feelings as losing Elo. Sure, there isn't a direct case of visually seeing a number go down. But time was still wasted on a loss while other people in other matches were busy winning, propelling their win count upward at a faster rate than people losing, causing the ragers to, well...rage.

Changing the metric system for evaluating performance will no more prevent people from raging than it will prevent people from cheating. If I'm trying to get to work and there's traffic, it doesn't matter if I say that it's 10 miles away or 16 kilometers away (10 miles = 16 kilomters) I'm late either way, regardless of how I measure my distance in units. The same applies to Ranked, whether you call it Elo or Wins/Losses, losing a match is always equal in value to losing time, no matter what metric system. People who rage, rage because they are losing/wasting time when they lose. This is why they cheat.

So to reinforce what I stated earlier, as long as there are rewards, someone, somewhere, will cheat to obtain them. Doesn't matter what form of rating system you use.

So by all means, I'm fine with revamping the Elo system. But I wouldn't be surprised if we wound up right back at square one with the exact same complaints, just with a new metric for tracking people's rankings.

Storm-Cutter's Avatar


Storm-Cutter
02.26.2019 , 12:56 AM | #25
So....If I'm reading the OP's post right, the top rewards go to the people who play the most, not who are the better players.

I don't have an alternative, atm but there's something a little off there? - A truly awful player with lots of time to stink up the queues surely shouldn't get a better reward than an elite player who doesn't queue very often.

I think the system needs an overhaul, but whatever you do to the ratings system doesn't address the issue of queue-synchers, quitters and win-traders. That's what skews the league table(s)
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Seterade's Avatar


Seterade
02.26.2019 , 01:41 AM | #26
except high elo players dont play the queue. they login for 2 matchs a day until they get gold/top 3 then afk for the rest of the season unless someone beats their top 3 score. in which they login for another 2 matchs.

in fact many spend their time on dead end alts throwing on people that threaten their score. (this is a fact not an assumption, if you dont believe this happens you are dreadfully niave)

Lundorff's Avatar


Lundorff
02.26.2019 , 02:18 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Jinre_the_Jedi View Post
Yes. They will do exactly this. Because degenerate people will be degenerate regardless of the cost in time. I think your biggest issue is that you fail to understand just how low some people are willing to go when it comes to cheating. If people want to break the rules, it doesn't matter if it takes them 2 hours or 100 hours, someone, somewhere will invest the time to cheat.

You have too much faith in people man
Cheating:
People will cheat yes, but with a point system I will not be personally affected. It took me 1100 matches to reach gold on 1 character back in season 9, and I had to reduce my queuing to late evening to bypass most of the wintraders and trolls. With a point system it would still be annoying, but it would not hamper my personal advancement in the same manner. Furthermore, I would find it hilarious if someone decided to dedicate all their time to 1 character merely to stick it to the ranked mafia

Population:
This has already been touched upon, so I will just echo what others what others are saying: If ratings are not affected by loss, then people will rage less and the whole thing will be more enjoyable. Personally I would feel more comfortable playing classes I suck at, if I knew it didn't mess with other peoples score.

Rewards:

Personally I don't care about rewards at all. The only thing I want is to test myself against others and see if I can improve. I do like the bronze / silver / gold system, as it gives me something specific to aim towards.

Points:
I would say 0 points for a loss, as we otherwise would have AFK-players in ranked all the time. Don't reward participation.

And...:
...what could it possible hurt at this point?

Jinre_the_Jedi's Avatar


Jinre_the_Jedi
02.26.2019 , 03:23 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Seterade View Post
except high elo players dont play the queue. they login for 2 matchs a day until they get gold/top 3 then afk for the rest of the season unless someone beats their top 3 score. in which they login for another 2 matchs.

in fact many spend their time on dead end alts throwing on people that threaten their score. (this is a fact not an assumption, if you dont believe this happens you are dreadfully niave)
So I went ahead and checked this out for myself. I took the Top 50 ranked players in solo ranked (Front Page only since it's easy to extrapolate for the remaining 46 players in the Top 96) and collected the following data:

Total Wins for each Character
Games Played, assuming a 60% win rate (average for a top page player)
Total Characters who participated in Ranked for that Season

Here's the data: Spreadsheet of Top 50 player's wins and average games played, relative to participation for that season.

For reference, I won 510 games and lost 279 according to an old screenshot on my laptop, giving me a 65% win rate for that season, so 60% is a fair enough average.

As you can see, relative to the population who participated in Ranked for each season, S10 had the lowest total participation when compared to other seasons, however the ratio of wins per character is still pretty close to that of more populated seasons.

What we can conclude from this is that: Players who are cheating for their rank by playing a few games and quitting are actually an extreme minority relative to players who actually play 100+ games to achieve their rank. All the numbers are right there on the leaderboards if you'd like to conduct your own test if you believe my numbers are made up as well. Looking at this leads me to conclude that while there are people who are cheating the system, it is a grave minority relative to a total of 500 Top 50 players being analyzed across every PvP season to exist. Even if it's 50 people total, and they all happened to have cheated in the same season (S10 allegations), that's still only 10% of Front page players. That means at least 90% of Top 50 players achieved it fairly by playing on average, a whopping 501 games to achieve their rating, per season.

So in short, yes, ban the few cheaters. But don't push this assumption that even a majority of the top 96 cheat, because according to easily accessible data, it's not true. It's a minority who are cheating, and they should be punished accordingly.

Ooha's Avatar


Ooha
02.26.2019 , 06:37 AM | #29
What all of you fail to mention, understand, or just are ignorant to the reality of is ELO wasn't meant for a pool of 20 people. In no competitive game that I've played be it WoW or OW or almost anything else are bronze players pitted against gold, plats, or ranks 1. That's a complete joke. Let me put it in perspective for you. Imagine a race between a Honda Civic and a McLaren F1. Lol.
*EF*

bladech's Avatar


bladech
02.26.2019 , 06:47 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
Why change the present ELO system?


1. It's far too easy for a small group of shady players to manipulate and cheat the entire scoring system so they end up with top ELO.

2. The integrity of the ranked scene particularly the solo matches has been reduced to a toxic cesspool. Players rely on wins far too much and all it takes is one drop of a match, one win trader on your team, or one lowly skilled player to ruin all that was gained in ELO. This puts tons of pressure on honest participants to not cost the team a loss, and many players don't even bother playing ranked now because of the pressure players put on one another during matches.



How would a wins/losses rating system work?


Wins = 2 points
Losses = 1 point

100 points = Bronze
200 points = Silver
300 points = Gold


As you can see it's quite simple. Players will be rewarded for wins and losses, however wins are only slightly better than losses. This curtails players to win trade or drop matches, just due to the number of matches they'd need to drop or win trade to get points. It's simply not worth it.

I am just making up score numbers, if it seems too easy or too hard with the score numbers above the devs could do whatever they see fit.

I am just thinking of how to make solo ranked more appealing for players to want to participate, and also how to make it so it's not nearly as easy to cheat for ranked tier rewards.

This type of point system would also encourage people to participate for longer periods of time seeing it does have a bit of a time investment, just gaining the points necessary for the three tier rewards.

This type of wins/losses point system would also alleviate the hassles for BW having to investigate so many reports of potential cheaters.

This type of wins/losses point system would also alleviate the pressure and demand players put on other players to ensure a win. Many less skilled players refuse to even participate in solo ranked now just because of the pure toxicity this pressure creates.


The only drawback I see is it requires a time investment. That being said, these rewards ought to be hard to get! A time investment is better than having the rewards be easily accessible to cheaters while hard to get for honest players which is how it is now.

I think it's fair to say the present ranked rating system is broken and cannot be fixed. Over the years players have continued to cheat and ruin other ranked players experiences in the matches with cheating.

The amount of time BW must waste trying to sort out who is cheating and who is not has to be exhausting. The experience as a player trying to honestly gain ELO in solo ranked is exhausting, I personally lost all patience with it last year after a week of seeing the shenanigans going on.

I know I would consider trying ranked again if I seen a new system was put in place to calculate points up, a system that would be far harder to cheat.

I imagine others have some things they would add, or perhaps explanations on how to improve this system, I am curious to hear what others have to say.


EDIT:

ALTERNATIVE TO TOP 3 HIGHEST ELO TITLE REWARDS

An alternative to the exclusive top 3 ELO position rewards could be top 3 with most wins. It would be a lot harder to manipulate this kind of system versus the present ELO rating system which literally only takes a small number of matches to manipulate and cheat for a top ELO spot.

With a wins/losses point system at least the winners would be people who actually won matches. Granted, if someone has 24/7 to play and manages to out win someone else who is better than them it might not indicate who the top player of all is, but in reality does the top ELO rating system do that now? I don't believe so.

This also would give players even more reason to queue up and play more ranked.
stop spamming/copy same thread with a bit different words pls. Your system sucks since it destroys quality of ranked and switches it to quantity. Those jobless, basement freaks will sit 24/7 and get tonnes of wins while skilled decent players working/studying making families etc. And if you think your system can't be manipulated you are mistaken. Same mafia will wintrade for wins now to get the most number of wins possible.

Current system is ok and needs only small changes like better matchmaking which won't consider high elo players be put in teams with total noobs.

Your system will allow noobs to get a guaranteed gold by just queueing 24/7 during all season. It looks like a cry from unskilled players who dream about gold but can't afford it with their skill