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More rewards for tanks and healers


Shingara's Avatar


Shingara
05.09.2013 , 02:42 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Caelrie View Post
What are you talking about? What does ANY of that have to do with the field respec bot and its use in TOR as a dual spec replacement?


DPS players benefit by having shorter queues. Everyone wins. You're right about the once per day thing, though. It needs to be like the WoW system where it's offered as many times as you run a flashpoint with the random queue.
1st you stated we have duel spec, we do not, field respec does not give duel spec, it allows you to respec within your advanced tree, duel spec would involve being able to be a pure tank in one advanced tree and a pure dps in the other advanced tree, this is not the case.

Second, will dps players benefit this for the 1 RGF that we get the reward for if this actualy works. As of yet you have simply stated it works with no proof.

Your entire idea is based on the fact you state it works but with no proof of the fact. You are simply saying that the only way this can work is if tanks and healers get more rewards when it is entirely possible that giving a reward for every run will work.
Health Warning - Thread May Contain Nuts.
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Caelrie's Avatar


Caelrie
05.09.2013 , 02:51 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Shingara View Post
1st you stated we have duel spec, we do not, field respec does not give duel spec, it allows you to respec within your advanced tree, duel spec would involve being able to be a pure tank in one advanced tree and a pure dps in the other advanced tree, this is not the case.
.
We're done. We can't even communicate if you're going to use definitions of words nobody else uses. Dual spec does not mean changing your class. It doesn't mean that in WoW, and it doesn't mean that here either.

The field respec bot lets you change from tank to DPS and back, or from healer to DPS and back. It's functionally the same as WoW's dual speccing.

Shingara's Avatar


Shingara
05.09.2013 , 02:53 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Caelrie View Post
We're done. We can't even communicate if you're going to use definitions of words nobody else uses. Dual spec does not mean changing your class. It doesn't mean that in WoW, and it doesn't mean that here either.
A smuggler who is a sawbones and a smuggler who is a gunslinger are still a smuggler.

Quote: Originally Posted by Caelrie View Post
The field respec bot lets you change from tank to DPS and back, or from healer to DPS and back. It's functionally the same as WoW's dual speccing.

And it doesnt allow a pure dps ac to become its alter pure heal/tank ac. So no its not. Have a nice day.
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Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
05.09.2013 , 02:54 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Shingara View Post
Are you sure you play this game, i am wondering based upon what you have just stated, we do not have duel spec or anything better then duel spec, a healer and tank advanced tree can respec into a more dps tree within there advanced tree but a gunslinger for example cannot respec into sawbones.

This game doesnt work on cross server RGF which bioware can increase or decrease the pool size of players based on peak times or peak load nor demand. The pool of players and main classes stay the same size only changing on peak to none peak times.

If this system just gives extra rewards for being a specific build or people of those builds to work the system until extra rewards were available then that becomes a problem and a disparigy against pure dps class's. And you have yet to show facts that this actualy works. Not to mention the fact we only get the reward once per day.
1. advanced class is essentially a different class. so what you are saying about gunslinger and sawbones is an equivalent of rogue (or mage, or warlock - you get the idea, pure dps classes of WoW) respeccing to druid or something like that. so by your definition, because mage, or warlock, or rogue can ONLY play as dps - WoW doesn't have a dual spec.

smuggler is a story. gunslinger and sawbones share a story. they are not however the same class when it comes to game mechanics. in that gunslinger and sniper are more of the same class. however, my jugg can currently be a tank or dps with field respec. my operative can be a dps or a healer. ergo? we have a what is essentially a dual spec. and even gunslinger that you keep bringing up? can respec into different play styles.

2. contrary to popular belief, all cross server group finder did was give faster queues to people on less populated servers. it did NOT increase the overall ratio of tanks and healers to dps. bioware merged servers instead, to increase the player pool.
3. in WoW at least, rewards is NOT once a day. its basically unlimited.

now. I'm not a big fan of idea if only because it will mean even more people who don't know how to tank/heal queueing then they already do. unless its possibly to program group finder to read current spec to at least insure that even if people are not very good, they at least bothered to get appropriate talents. implementing gear check is a double edged sword that comes with both advantages and drawbacks.

plus no reward in a world will fix one of the major reason why many people don't queue as tanks/healers - having a larger responsibility in compensating for other players/dealing with headaches of other players not playing as a team.

and since it would be bad to at least not offer my own constructive suggestions, my favorite fix for dps queues is simply increasing the number of dps average group requires. (its another reason why queues in WoW are often shorter - 3 dps for each tank/healer vs TOR's 2.)

however. rewarding more needed roles in WoW did create an incentive for those roles to queue more often. they just tend to stop once they got all the rewards they could possibly get (since reward pool in WoW is pretty limited, even more so, now that pets and mounts are account wide)

Shingara's Avatar


Shingara
05.09.2013 , 03:03 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
1. advanced class is essentially a different class. so what you are saying about gunslinger and sawbones is an equivalent of rogue respeccing to druid or something like that.
2. contrary to popular belief, all cross server group finder did was give faster queues to people on less populated servers. it did NOT increase the overall ratio of tanks and healers to dps. bioware merged servers instead, to increase the player pool.
3. in WoW at least, rewards is NOT once a day. its basically unlimited.

now. I'm not a big fan of idea if only because it will mean even more people who don't know how to tank/heal queueing then they already do. unless its possibly to program group finder to read current spec to at least insure that even if people are not very good, they at least bothered to get appropriate talents. implementing gear check is a double edged sword that comes with both advantages and drawbacks.

plus no reward in a world will fix one of the major reason why many people don't queue as tanks/healers - having a larger responsibility in compensating for other players/dealing with headaches of other players not playing as a team.

and since it would be bad to at least not offer my own constructive suggestions, my favorite fix for dps queues is simply increasing the number of dps average group requires. (its another reason why queues in WoW are often shorter - 3 dps for each tank/healer vs TOR's 2.)
And again, i dont know how many times i have to state this, different system, lets state that again, different system. We get 1 reward per day per run, the other system gets a reward per run, this system locks you into an advanced tree the other system allows you to be duel spec in the classes that they have also available on a wider pool of hybrid classes. Whilst we have the AC as they get locked in at lvl10, so class is defined by type not tree ac.

And finialy, zero proof this works. Emphasis on proof. thats my problem, stating it works when the term 'work' is based on opinion not fact.

I see no proof that q times went down for dps as a whole, i see no proof that players didnt game the system to chain the rewards which increased the dps wait time.

The main problem with tors RGF espec whilst leveling is reward for using the RGF in the 1st place, its not specifically just tanks and healers that maybe short. Without statistics it could be a fact that whilst your waiting for an RGF you are infact a dps short for the specific run you are looking for. Im not stating that as fact as i do not have any but nor does anyone else bar Bioware and the statistics for the other system is held by Activision/Blizzard.
Health Warning - Thread May Contain Nuts.
First, you can continue as a subscriber, which gives you unlimited access to all game features and future Game Updates at no additional charge. http://www.swtor.com/info/news/blog/20120731

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
05.09.2013 , 03:16 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Shingara View Post
And again, i dont know how many times i have to state this, different system, lets state that again, different system. We get 1 reward per day per run, the other system gets a reward per run, this system locks you into an advanced tree the other system allows you to be duel spec in the classes that have that available on a wider pool of classes.

And finialy, zero proof this works. Emphasis on proof. thats my problem, stating it works when the term 'work' is based on opinion not fact.

I see no proof that q times went down for dps as a whole, i see no proof that players didnt game the system to chain the rewards which increased the dps wait time.

The main problem with tors RGF espec whilst leveling is reward for using the RGF in the 1st place, its not specifically just tanks and healers that maybe short. Without statistics it could be a fact that whilst your waiting for an RGF you are infact a dps short for the specific run you are looking for. Im not stating that as fact as i do not have any but nor does anyone else bar Bioware and the statistics for the other system is held by Activision/Blizzard.
there are 11 classes in WoW.

there are 8 in TOR. (yes each advanced class is essentially a separate class, you just get to pick one out at lvl 10 instead of on character creation)

out of 11 classes in WoW - 4 are pure dps
out of 8 classes in TOR - 2 are pure dps.
the major difference is that WoW has 3 classes that can play all 3 roles - however, it doesn't mean they actually play all 3 roles. gearing is too annoying for that.

overall - TOR has 6 classes that can play needed roles. WoW has 7. its really not that much of a difference.
you are confusing the shared story with class.

there are certain rewards in WoW that are only once a day, or once a week.

NOTHING is stopping bioware from creating a separate flag for needed role reward IF THEY SO CHOSE and make it more than once a day.

I know personally people who queued more often almost solely because of the reward bag. I'm guilded with several. i was ONE of those people, I specifically respecced my paladin to tanking (even though I prefer to dps or heal on her), solely because rewards bag had certain pets and mounts I was unable to farm up the hard way. I also know people who said - screw it, a little extra gold is not worth it. and of course people game the system. do you honestly believe they are not gaming it right now in TOR? are are you so lucky to never get a group with dps who picked tank or healer because they wanted a faster queue?

its a bandaid. but its a bandaid that DOES work to a degree, at least temporarily. provided there are safeguards (which is something I mentioned. we need at least some sort of safeguards if this were to be implemented) and I'm not entirely sure why you are so vehemently against it?

and general rewards for queueing in TOR are generally better than what you get through questing, at least the first run of the day. by far. one run with both dailies nets you as many coms as finishing half the planet. so no, that's not really an issue.

Shingara's Avatar


Shingara
05.09.2013 , 03:23 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
there are 11 classes in WoW.

there are 8 in TOR. (yes each advanced class is essentially a separate class, you just get to pick one out at lvl 10 instead of on character creation)

out of 11 classes in WoW - 4 are pure dps
out of 8 classes in TOR - 2 are pure dps.
the major difference is that WoW has 3 classes that can play all 3 roles - however, it doesn't mean they actually play all 3 roles. gearing is too annoying for that.

overall - TOR has 6 classes that can play needed roles. WoW has 7. its really not that much of a difference.
you are confusing the shared story with class.

there are certain rewards in WoW that are only once a day, or once a week.

NOTHING is stopping bioware from creating a separate flag for needed role reward IF THEY SO CHOSE and make it more than once a day.

I know personally people who queued more often almost solely because of the reward bag. I'm guilded with several. i was ONE of those people, I specifically respecced my paladin to tanking (even though I prefer to dps or heal on her), solely because rewards bag had certain pets and mounts I was unable to farm up the hard way. I also know people who said - screw it, a little extra gold is not worth it.

its a bandaid. but its a bandaid that DOES work to a degree, at least temporarily. and I'm not entirely sure why you are so vehemently against it?

and general rewards for queueing in TOR are generally better than what you get through questing, at least the first run of the day. by far. one run with both dailies nets you as many coms as finishing half the planet. so no, that's not really an issue.
Again you miss my point, there is no proof this worked, just proof that you swapped roles to get those rewards, within this game that would involve re rolling for people who cannot get those rewards via respec within there AC. I notice you are also looking at this from only 1 angle and that is endgame, IF this is something to look at in the terms of encouraging people to use the RGF then the system has to encorperate the whole playerbase.

It has to start from lvl 10-55, it has to encourage players that support roles are required yet not deter people from being there chosen playstyle simply for material gain that is otherwise blocked from them and encourage group play within RGF outside of normal leveling.

It also would never have bothered me in the slightest if they had never said THIS WORKS with zero proof.
Health Warning - Thread May Contain Nuts.
First, you can continue as a subscriber, which gives you unlimited access to all game features and future Game Updates at no additional charge. http://www.swtor.com/info/news/blog/20120731

Caelrie's Avatar


Caelrie
05.09.2013 , 03:41 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Shingara View Post
Again you miss my point, there is no proof this worked, just proof that you swapped roles to get those rewards, within this game that would involve re rolling for people who cannot get those rewards via respec within there AC. I notice you are also looking at this from only 1 angle and that is endgame, IF this is something to look at in the terms of encouraging people to use the RGF then the system has to encorperate the whole playerbase.

It has to start from lvl 10-55, it has to encourage players that support roles are required yet not deter people from being there chosen playstyle simply for material gain that is otherwise blocked from them and encourage group play within RGF outside of normal leveling.

It also would never have bothered me in the slightest if they had never said THIS WORKS with zero proof.
So basically you're against this idea because your gunslinger can't respec to tank and you think that's somehow unfair even though if it worked, that gunslinger would massively benefit from being able to run flashpoints far more often.

Shingara's Avatar


Shingara
05.09.2013 , 03:42 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Caelrie View Post
So basically you're against this idea because your gunslinger can't respec to tank and you think that's somehow unfair.
I have 18 chars, trust me i can field any and all classes, each side and nearly every varient. The basic thing is you have not read a word i have written.
Health Warning - Thread May Contain Nuts.
First, you can continue as a subscriber, which gives you unlimited access to all game features and future Game Updates at no additional charge. http://www.swtor.com/info/news/blog/20120731

Caelrie's Avatar


Caelrie
05.09.2013 , 03:47 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Shingara View Post
I have 18 chars, trust me i can field any and all classes, each side and nearly every varient. The basic thing is you have not read a word i have written.
I'm not the only one in this thread who's read everything you've written and can't make heads or tails out of your argument.