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Gods from the Machine Nightmare/Master Mode


chipequssmlgpro's Avatar


chipequssmlgpro
07.02.2019 , 08:49 AM | #1
Hello Keith!

First of all, thank you again for providing the raiding community with a Nightmare operation, I hope you have seen some of the forum threads, discord conversations and twitch streams where groups are discussion strategy, wiping for hours and finally downing some of the hardest bosses in the game. Speaking for myself and the raiding team I am in (Group <Farming Components> on the European server Darth Malgus), we have had a great time with these bosses, coming up with strategies and killing bosses, Matt did a great job with creating challenges that REALLY felt next to impossible at the start.

That said, something that has been on my mind recently is how almost 8 months have passed since the release of Gods Nightmare, but a mere 5 teams have managed to get the timed run and just 8 teams have killed Izax. I know quite a few teams are close, a few friends of mine are doing their best on Izax and will likely be killing it sometime this summer, however many more of are in teams that simply do not have the capacity to kill some of these bosses.

The raiding community, in particular on Darth Malgus, has been growing steadily during the last few years as more experienced raiders are helping new players and the Nightmare community today has loads of players with the capacity to clear most of the older Nightmare operations. However, Gods Nightmare is not one of them and I think this is a huge issue going forward, in particular as players end up clearing the old Nightmare operations but feel like Gods Nightmare is too much of a jump in difficulty.

Thus, I think that a slight decrease in difficulty of Gods Nightmare could be an option, looking at the fights I think that the HP of bosses/adds and their damage dealt could be reduced and that would still ensure the fights keep part of their unique difficulty. Perhaps this could be done in a similar manner as when Dread Fortress and Dread Palace lost their Nightmare Power and how Gods Hardmode had a period during which it was harder, followed by a patch in which most of the fights got significant nerfs.

Although I am not sure, perhaps this is what you guys have been thinking all along? When I first killed Izax and were rewarded “Slayer of the Machine Gods” title it seemed similar to how players gained “Conqueror of the Dread Fortress”, “Deposer of the Dread Masters” and the “Bane of Izax” titles prior to nerfs. Speaking with a lot of raiders that have cleared Gods Nightmare, I think that a lot of people wouldn’t mind nerfs to the Nightmare mode to allow the larger raiding community to start venturing into the operation and experience the fights. A key argument I think is that so many of the mechanics are fun and that the boss fights are really challenging both on an individual level as well as for the team, however, the current difficulty level excludes a lot of the larger raiding community.

Tldr: Reduce the difficulty of Nightmare Gods from the Machine to allow for the larger raiding community to experience the fights, remove the “Slayer of the Machine Gods” title upon killing Izax as a token to the players who killed it prior.

<FARMING COMPONENTS>

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invertioN's Avatar


invertioN
07.03.2019 , 09:18 AM | #2
I agree, do it next Tuesday.
Adixia, Red Eclipse EU

auroroavalor's Avatar


auroroavalor
07.03.2019 , 11:54 AM | #3
I'm hopeful the number of teams to kill Izax will almost double in the next month or so. To my knowledge there are three teams on Satele Shan currently working on Izax. I would hate to see thier hard work rewarded with only an achievement.

That being said, difficult content is rewarding content. So long as content isn't driving players away from the game because it feels unkillable I don't think a nerf is required. A rebalancing is likely to happen in 6.0 and with the addition of Tacticals to a players arsenal I'm not sure a nerf is needed.
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GhOsTPrOz's Avatar


GhOsTPrOz
07.07.2019 , 08:41 AM | #4
I agree it seems to be a step above most the other NIM fights, I think a large portion of that is the fact that it's newer and less people understand the mechanics. I don't think it makes sense to nerf it right now as that would be time and effort for the developers and also as mentioned kinda be a kick in the face to all the teams who are close to killing a boss and know they can without a nerf given more time but then suddenly it's nerfed. I will say when 6.0 comes around I think it should be tuned slightly easier, no dumbing down mechanics, just maybe slightly less health and slightly less damage as OP mentioned.
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AMAirlines's Avatar


AMAirlines
07.07.2019 , 02:25 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by GhOsTPrOz View Post
I agree it seems to be a step above most the other NIM fights, I think a large portion of that is the fact that it's newer and less people understand the mechanics. I don't think it makes sense to nerf it right now as that would be time and effort for the developers and also as mentioned kinda be a kick in the face to all the teams who are close to killing a boss and know they can without a nerf given more time but then suddenly it's nerfed. I will say when 6.0 comes around I think it should be tuned slightly easier, no dumbing down mechanics, just maybe slightly less health and slightly less damage as OP mentioned.

I personally think it should be kept exactly the same, this type of difficult content is what makes the game fun, old content is that much easier right now because of the 258 gear that we have at hand. Come 6.0, everything will be tuned to the same gear level, gods will still be the hardest, but it just won't be as big of a "jump" as it was before
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AlexIonutPlay's Avatar


AlexIonutPlay
07.08.2019 , 08:22 AM | #6
There is no need for a nerf just for the people that are not able to kill it, why would you get a reward (achievement in this case) if you don't deserve it, this applies for the old content as well, because many players that don't deserve old content achievements, speeders and titles are just farming those because of the new gear which makes old nim a joke.


I think chip had his point there with the title "Slayer of the Machine Gods", in my opinion that title should get removed in the future, maybe with Dxun expansion, just to reward somehow NiM community and the players that killed Izax NiM at the release, because at the moment we, NiM community, didn't get any reward for the time we spend progressing that and killing it ( from Izax you get a speed that you already have it from HM, because most of players killed HM "NiM tunned" and you get the speeder just for having it in inventory)


Musco said he is gonna give us back the achievements that we lost with the bug, on Izax and Gods Timed, that happened in january and we still didn't get those back.

chipequssmlgpro's Avatar


chipequssmlgpro
07.08.2019 , 09:25 AM | #7
Just to clarify what I meant exactly with "nerf" so we all are on the same page, first of all, if it would be to happen I guess best time to do it would be 6.0 with Dxun launch, considering all top teams and everyone else who cleared GFTM before 6.0 will be grinding Dxun at that time, so other teams that want to catch up and are still pulling bosses in GFTM instance would have a slight better chance to do so, secondly, I did not mean all out nerf on Gods operation, but a slight damage nerf or so, slight HP decrease on bosses, or maybe something like increased enrage timer, but I leave those things to Matt because he's done a really fantastic job tuning all the bosses as they are now, thirdly basically what Cola said about Slayer title achieved by killing Izax because I noticed some people think I want it removed right now, of course not, it's been out for so long it doesn't make any sense to remove it NOW. What I meant is and what Cola said already, best time to make it unobtainable would be 6.0/Dxun launch, I might get slandered for it for wanting Slayer title to be unobtainable anymore because it was said from the very beginning that it is NOT Nightmare Power whatsoever, but I guess lots of people would agree with me for all the gamers that were farming Old Content operations for so long in hopes for new operation that we finally got and so we could get rewarded with an Exclusive title for clearing Gods just like back in 2.0 with DF and DP. Hope that cleared things up but I probably forgot about something anyway, heh.

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AlexIonutPlay's Avatar


AlexIonutPlay
07.08.2019 , 09:36 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by chipequssmlgpro View Post
Just to clarify what I meant exactly with "nerf" so we all are on the same page, first of all, if it would be to happen I guess best time to do it would be 6.0 with Dxun launch, considering all top teams and everyone else who cleared GFTM before 6.0 will be grinding Dxun at that time, so other teams that want to catch up and are still pulling bosses in GFTM instance would have a slight better chance to do so, secondly, I did not mean all out nerf on Gods operation, but a slight damage nerf or so, slight HP decrease on bosses, or maybe something like increased enrage timer, but I leave those things to Matt because he's done a really fantastic job tuning all the bosses as they are now, thirdly basically what Cola said about Slayer title achieved by killing Izax because I noticed some people think I want it removed right now, of course not, it's been out for so long it doesn't make any sense to remove it NOW. What I meant is and what Cola said already, best time to make it unobtainable would be 6.0/Dxun launch, I might get slandered for it for wanting Slayer title to be unobtainable anymore because it was said from the very beginning that it is NOT Nightmare Power whatsoever, but I guess lots of people would agree with me for all the gamers that were farming Old Content operations for so long in hopes for new operation that we finally got and so we could get rewarded with an Exclusive title for clearing Gods just like back in 2.0 with DF and DP. Hope that cleared things up but I probably forgot about something anyway, heh.
I do NOT agree with the nerf, I agree with the title as a reward for people that killed it before next expansion.

Huskernutz's Avatar


Huskernutz
07.08.2019 , 11:34 AM | #9
Gonna throw in my two cents to this topic since I'm currently progging NiM Izax and arguably part of the demographic that is most realistically effected by this idea.

First of all I 100% agree with the underlying reasons behind why those who've cleared the fight want to have the title removed, it's a cool reward that requires a lot of hard work and progression to get and understandably people who cleared the fight when it was at it's hardest want some kind of exclusivity -- outside of their achievement date -- for putting in the work and for that reason I support the argument for removing the Slayer Title.

That being said I personally feel that without the title the Izax fight in NiM simply doesn't offer enough meaningful rewards outside of the title currently to justify its removal. The wings aren't a high enough desired mount since a lot of people currently pulling NiM Gods most likely got it from the HM achievement already and it can randomly drop from HM (and SM from what I've heard), the mats will be nebulous rewards come 6.0 (if they are even still in the game), and the CM drop are not rare whatsoever and are also CM drops. This realistically only leaves the deco drop from Izax and the Timed Run title as the only meaningful rewards for completing the Raid outside of achievements which I personally don't think are a meaningful reward. This combined with the high mechanical challenge of the instance, and assuming the output checks are reduced in some way come 6.0, I don't see a realistic reason for people to want to do NiM Gods for anything other than Achievements and the Timed Run after the release of Onslaught.

For these reasons I think that if the Slayer title were to be removed come 6.0 then something would be needed to be added to loot table of Izax (outside of gear) that offers a meaningful reason for players to want to put in the effort to reclear the instance. Obviously the big meme here would be to have the devs finish the Nahut Eclipse mount and implement it with 6.0 but it could be as simple as a new flair, or weapon tuning, just something cosmetic that makes it worth putting in the effort to get to and kill Izax.

Finally as a slight philosophic aside if the devs are okay with removing the Slayer title based off of community opinion I would offer the argument that they are ethically obligated to remove the Revanchist title for the same reasons that Slayer would get removed and that all NiMs that release past this point should have something exclusive like the Slayer title or Nightmare Power titles intrinsically tied to the release of the instance.
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RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
07.08.2019 , 01:22 PM | #10
Great post Chipefuss and I agree with a lot of what you are saying, it saddens me to see what so few of the players that have posted so far in this thread has grasped the core of the post, the suggested nerf isn't to make content "boring", it's meant to make the operation available for the rest of the raiding community, not just the 8 groups that have killed it.

It is encouraging to read that you hope that the number of kills will increase from 8 to 16 this month and as far as I can see, one has already managed to kill Izax which is great! That said, it still seems that the post has been mostly skimmed through, having just 30-35 players experiance the whole fight after a full year is simply inadequate in my opinion. The raiding community in SWTOR is growing as it is with more and more teams being able to run Nightmare operations and getting their timed runs, still, the jump from the old Nightmare operations and Gods Nightmare is massive, despite 258 gear.

The argument about the removal of the Slayer title being unfair for teams progressing on the boss is an understandable one, however, keep in mind that we are already 9 months in, if I remember correctly we only got 3 months for Dread Palace and Dread Fortress during Nightmare power. With 6.0, during which I think that a nerf and removal of the Slayer title would be appropriate, close to a year has passed and I think that a nerf along with a rework would be reasonable to make the content in line with the other old Nightmares.

I understand that players who have yet to clear the encounter feels differently and perhaps think they are being treated in an unfair way, but there is a multitude of timed based rewards including gear, pets, mount, weapons, companions, titles and other things in this game already. Providing small rewards for active players while at the same time making content available for the larger player base helps ensure that both old, as well as new players, feel appreciated by the developers.

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