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5.6 - Precision Nerf - Feedback


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Come 5.6, combat/carnage sents & mara's will face a determinental nerf to their class ability Precision/Ferocity that will limit "only" certain abilities affected by precision/ferocity, our most vital asset for achieving damage, by putting 10 sec stacks on it, and negating other abilities from being used within precisions/ferocity's window of damage however we choose. This is another change that will limit creativity in how a class can be played.

 

The main reasoning behind this is that people who suffer from server lag versus others with better connection are at a constant disadvantage and thus creates a gap between those who can hit the "clip" versus those who cannot. this is flawed logic. I run this game at 10-15 FPS and no problem can hit the "clip" without fail, not because My computer performance, but because I practice at the class and became good with it, like anyone who tries. But enough about me, If ever there is a sliver of chance the developers reconsider this decision, post something in accordance to the information you've gathered.

 

Up vote or /sign this please!

 

Thank you my Fellow Combat/Carnage Sentinels and Marauders - may your alacrity stay High!

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I don't have a problem with this change conceptually. If it nerfs DPS then I would say that is a problem that they shouldn't create with this change. I like the change itself, i.e., not requiring the clipping of abilities to achieve target DPS. Kind of a cheesy mechanic if you ask me and more like something found out to work rather than designed to work this way. I wouldn't design combos that require the activation of an ability prior to a subsequent ability with that subsequent ability buffing the prior ability. A bit too busy for my design aesthetic. It's even too busy to try to describe it.

 

I don't think server lag is a total red herring as it can constrain the ability to activate abilities in a timely manner. And, I don't see this change as constraining creativity, rather it currently requires combinations of abilities in a set pattern--that is constraining creativity. If you mean that it removes the creativity of finding a cheesy mechanic than I agree, but I think the change rather allows for a more natural playstyle. I do hope that it will be DPS neutral though. And, sorry I can't jump on the bandwagon here.

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I don't have a problem with this change conceptually. If it nerfs DPS then I would say that is a problem that they shouldn't create with this change. I like the change itself, i.e., not requiring the clipping of abilities to achieve target DPS. Kind of a cheesy mechanic if you ask me and more like something found out to work rather than designed to work this way. I wouldn't design combos that require the activation of an ability prior to a subsequent ability with that subsequent ability buffing the prior ability. A bit too busy for my design aesthetic. It's even too busy to try to describe it.

 

I don't think server lag is a total red herring as it can constrain the ability to activate abilities in a timely manner. And, I don't see this change as constraining creativity, rather it currently requires combinations of abilities in a set pattern--that is constraining creativity. If you mean that it removes the creativity of finding a cheesy mechanic than I agree, but I think the change rather allows for a more natural playstyle. I do hope that it will be DPS neutral though. And, sorry I can't jump on the bandwagon here.

Um it does.

You also don't need to clip to fit 3 abilities in a ferocity window(alacrity), for 4 abilities you need to clip.

Edited by Romeugues
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I see a number of issues with the planned shift to ferocity stacks:

 

- Currently, the ferocity window is 3 seconds. Even without clipping, that is 3 gcd's. Ferocity stacks should be 3, not 2.

 

- It doesn't make any sense to me that Ravage is not one of the abilities that consume stacks. Massacre would be a waste of one of these stacks, meaning the only abilities worth using are vic throw, dev blast, and gore. If vic throw isn't procc'ed, the stack system allows us to wait until it is, but this doesn't help if you need a big burst all within a few gcds to take out that mob before it channels or finish someone off in pvp while they're low on health or stunned. A burst class should be bursty.

 

- Sweeping slash is not included as one of the abilities that can utilize a ferocity stacks. This will make Carnage a burst class with no burst aoe.

 

- The alacrity boost from Berserk will only be minimally useful. It will increase APM as it always has but do little to help burst. It would probably make more sense with ferocity stacks to have berserk boost crit, but contradicts what Carnage is supposed to be, a fast and furious burst spec.

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I don't have a problem with this change conceptually. If it nerfs DPS then I would say that is a problem that they shouldn't create with this change. I like the change itself, i.e., not requiring the clipping of abilities to achieve target DPS. Kind of a cheesy mechanic if you ask me and more like something found out to work rather than designed to work this way. I wouldn't design combos that require the activation of an ability prior to a subsequent ability with that subsequent ability buffing the prior ability. A bit too busy for my design aesthetic. It's even too busy to try to describe it.

 

I don't think server lag is a total red herring as it can constrain the ability to activate abilities in a timely manner. And, I don't see this change as constraining creativity, rather it currently requires combinations of abilities in a set pattern--that is constraining creativity. If you mean that it removes the creativity of finding a cheesy mechanic than I agree, but I think the change rather allows for a more natural playstyle. I do hope that it will be DPS neutral though. And, sorry I can't jump on the bandwagon here.

 

Another bad player (you),posting for something that he has no idea about.

What you wrote in two paragraphs can be summarized in one word which is against the forum rules to post it.

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Another bad player (you),posting for something that he has no idea about.

What you wrote in two paragraphs can be summarized in one word which is against the forum rules to post it.

 

Well, I play the class. I activate twin saber throw or dispatch, then precision, and then a clashing blast or blade barrage. I do that because that is how to play the class optimally and achieve the highest burst in terms of the current discussion. I don't like it conceptually. I've played MMO's and ARPG's (mostly) for over 10 years and am familiar with class design across the board from all the major games. I'm saying I don't like the current clipping mechanic. It's not a clean, straightforward design. It's optimal in terms of the current design, but it's not elegant. It's a design issue. The clipping mandate is now an element of functional design whether it was foreseen or intended. As most players of the class I have the clipping under my fingers--I really don't invest a lot of play time thinking about the keystrokes. It's when I pause and think about the functional design that effectively mandates clipping combos that it bothers me. You may be playing optimally within the current class conception, as am I, but you don't have a sense for design. That's where we differ in terms of the precision nerf under discussion.

 

As I said, I'm not happy with a functional nerf. I would be more interested to see a minor reworking that no longer mandated a clipping combo and maintained DPS as well as the class conception and pace.

Edited by Khartu
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There is definitely an argument against clipping, that said it's not a huge part of your DPS while at the same time being rewarding for the players who are able to achieve it on a regular basis. I can agree with significant parts of the feedback posted in this thread as well as the main one, however, I think that the BW approach of removing clipping isn't the end of the world. That said having three stacks instead of two would make sense as that is the standard today.

 

I am a huge proponent of designing classes to be "Easy to play but hard to master", I think that really fits into the general swtor population, not everyone wants to spend hours learning rotations and a very small part of the population need to do it to clear the content they want to do. That said, having incentives for players who either want to improve themselves to clear content or just to reach their full potential with the spec is an important aspect.

Edited by RikuvonDrake
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you peope talking about clipping while clipping is not the issue....

you want to look smart and look very not so smart while doing it..

2<3 thats the issue... and that only 2 abilities are affected.....

but sure lets discuss clipping.... USE YOUR BRAINS ONCE

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you peope talking about clipping while clipping is not the issue....

you want to look smart and look very not so smart while doing it..

2<3 thats the issue... and that only 2 abilities are affected.....

but sure lets discuss clipping.... USE YOUR BRAINS ONCE

 

No, it's not actually about 2<3, though I like the post above that mentions 3. This thread is in response to dev changes to the class where they directly address clipping. For the Sentinel:

 

"DevNotes: We noticed a disparity between damage output on the Combat discipline from players that could successfully “clip” a Dispatch in a Precision window and those who couldn’t, due to factors outside of their control like server latency. Clipping lead to being able to use 3 abilities affected by Precision during the original 3 second window instead of 2. To remedy this, we changed Precision to be stack based, with 2 stacks lasting 10 seconds. Additionally, Precision now only affects certain abilities, making it possible for players to use a less optimal ability during the window without sacrificing a stack of Precision.

 

Although this will look like a DPS loss, Combat’s target DPS has always been calculated without “clipping” in mind, so this change should effectively normalize Combat’s DPS to our target."

 

That's why people are looking smart or not around the subject of clipping. I believe, unlike the OP, that server latency could be a theoretical problem around clipping though I don't know that it would materially affect a lot of players. I think they should have addressed the reasons for the change more broadly than just referencing server latency.

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No, it's not actually about 2<3, though I like the post above that mentions 3. This thread is in response to dev changes to the class where they directly address clipping. For the Sentinel:

 

"DevNotes: We noticed a disparity between damage output on the Combat discipline from players that could successfully “clip” a Dispatch in a Precision window and those who couldn’t, due to factors outside of their control like server latency. Clipping lead to being able to use 3 abilities affected by Precision during the original 3 second window instead of 2. To remedy this, we changed Precision to be stack based, with 2 stacks lasting 10 seconds. Additionally, Precision now only affects certain abilities, making it possible for players to use a less optimal ability during the window without sacrificing a stack of Precision.

 

Although this will look like a DPS loss, Combat’s target DPS has always been calculated without “clipping” in mind, so this change should effectively normalize Combat’s DPS to our target."

 

That's why people are looking smart or not around the subject of clipping. I believe, unlike the OP, that server latency could be a theoretical problem around clipping though I don't know that it would materially affect a lot of players. I think they should have addressed the reasons for the change more broadly than just referencing server latency.

 

If you'd play the class you'd know that you can use 3 abilities in the window without clipping regardless of berserk. Clipping is all about the fourth ability, not the third.

The other issues are the flow of the spec, the major dps loss despite what the devs said, the burst that it will have now(worse than fury), the interaction with berserk and the interaction with alacrity. All that are getting destroyed with a single blow. But you'd know that if you played carnage and used half your brain.

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If you'd play the class you'd know that you can use 3 abilities in the window without clipping regardless of berserk. Clipping is all about the fourth ability, not the third.

The other issues are the flow of the spec, the major dps loss despite what the devs said, the burst that it will have now(worse than fury), the interaction with berserk and the interaction with alacrity. All that are getting destroyed with a single blow. But you'd know that if you played carnage and used half your brain.

 

Not sure where you get the idea that I don't understand clipping. Can you show me a statement where I say that clipping is about 3 abilities and not 4? Precision increases armor penetration by 100% for 3 seconds. Clipping allows you to cheese in another ability. It doesn't take a lot of brain power to understand this--it's something even you can understand. And, I was only addressing the clipping mechanic itself and not how the devs have chosen to remedy it. It is obvious if they are not using it to determine target DPS that it was not something intended. And, if I were designing a class I wouldn't design it in a way where clipping combinations were required around a 3 second window. I wouldn't do it as a matter of design probably for the same reasons as the devs didn't do it. Problems with server latency would be only one consideration.

 

So I agree with the devs in reworking the spec in order to remove the clip mandate. I don't agree with harming the class in the process. I just commented on clipping--and, I'm really glad to see it go--sadly, only one post really deals with possible solutions like adding another stack.

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If you'd play the class you'd know that you can use 3 abilities in the window without clipping regardless of berserk. Clipping is all about the fourth ability, not the third.

 

How can you fit three 1.3 seconds into a 3 second window without clipping it?

Because that's what you're saying.

What they should do is give a 3rd stack while unser berserk.

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How can you fit three 1.3 seconds into a 3 second window without clipping it?

Because that's what you're saying.

What they should do is give a 3rd stack while unser berserk.

 

Start ability at beginning of ferocity. Next ability starts at 1.3s into ferocity. 3rd ability starts at 2.6s withing ferocity and as long as it isn't VT/DST or a DB at range then it will hit before ferocity ends. No clipping involved. You can even do that with a 1.4s gcd.

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Start ability at beginning of ferocity. Next ability starts at 1.3s into ferocity. 3rd ability starts at 2.6s withing ferocity and as long as it isn't VT/DST or a DB at range then it will hit before ferocity ends. No clipping involved. You can even do that with a 1.4s gcd.

 

Basically that's already clipping. You're activating ferocity practically after the first ability. Otherwise it can't fit.

If ferocity would respect the gcd, you would never fit 3 abilities inside, without berserk. Which would probably have been the easier fix. Give it a gcd and damage, done.

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Basically that's already clipping. You're activating ferocity practically after the first ability. Otherwise it can't fit.

If ferocity would respect the gcd, you would never fit 3 abilities inside, without berserk. Which would probably have been the easier fix. Give it a gcd and damage, done.

 

Except it's not clipping, you're using ferocity first then abilities after. You have around .3 seconds of wiggle room to activate an ability after ferocity if you have a 1.3s gcd, absolutely no clipping required. They tried making the old ferocity on the gcd once, the dislike of it and how much it hurt how the spec played made them scrap it.

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Basically that's already clipping. You're activating ferocity practically after the first ability. Otherwise it can't fit.

If ferocity would respect the gcd, you would never fit 3 abilities inside, without berserk. Which would probably have been the easier fix. Give it a gcd and damage, done.

 

?

 

Gore was on gcd in 3.0... well ferocity as they call it now.

Edited by RACATW
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Like the other carnage player's in the announcement thread I don't see a future for it. It's dead, a weak spec with no self heals or burst capability. No fun, no skill and not unique, essentially having a juggs gather strength utility. Edited by RACATW
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Basically that's already clipping. You're activating ferocity practically after the first ability. Otherwise it can't fit.

If ferocity would respect the gcd, you would never fit 3 abilities inside, without berserk. Which would probably have been the easier fix. Give it a gcd and damage, done.

 

/facepalm

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A thought about the server latency issue:

i played on harbringer till april, and with 200-300ms latency i can clip easily; just need to get used to the moment you need to clip in bersek window and outside it. I moved to TRE and i boosted dps cause of latency(50-60) around 300dps. So if a player wanna clip with 200+ latency he can. Aussies can clipp successfully. But the lack of will to learn to play is the big issue.

The problem is that winners complain that they cant pull the numbers. But they dont even try to improve. And idiots from EA change the "utility" of clipping. IS it ok that yesterday i did like 5 parses fury, and got 10200 dps and my best carnage parse is 10220?

I did like 300+ parses carnage and 5 fury? whats the point in doing carnage? and what will be the point? Mara is melee, its burst and will be the worst dps spec.

I'm an average marauder, so i might be wrong, but after ferocity nerf i see no point of using carnage in any nim fight. No aoe, no burst, no nothing. When keith came , i thought things would get better, but its the same idiotic arguments and moves.

Eric, pls do us a favor and resign. You're clearly not ment for something like this. Take with you the morron from class balance who doesnt know you can have 3 skills in ferocity without clipping and that ferocity isnt an utility. There are plenty other activities you and him can do: like working teh land, plants. Work phisicly, cause not all people are ment for MMO's

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please just revert the change

 

if not:

1) ataru form hits from ferocity boosted abilities should also get the armor pen

2) sweeping slash and ravage should also be boostable

3) either you should just get 3 stacks for each ferocity or activating the ability during beserk should grant 3

Edited by yellow_
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please just revert the change

 

if not:

1) ataru form hits from ferocity boosted abilities should also get the armor pen

2) sweeping slash and ravage should also be boostable

3) either you should just get 3 stacks for each ferocity for activating the ability during beserk should grant 3

 

Yeah, that's what should be done imo.

Making Ferocity give 100% armor pen. as long as there is still an active stack, adding Sweeping Slash and Ravage is a must, as those are very important for Carnage and adding an extra ferocity stack while under berserk would only make sense, this spec was all about alacrity, removing it now would be stupid and bad game design, along with a bigger dps loss than intended imo

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You all realise that Combat is supposed to have lower sustained dps than both Watchman and Concentration, right? With the current Precision window it's not the case and tbh I'm not surprised that BW decided to make this change, neither should any of you.

I'm personally only surprised by Concentration not getting a dps decrease.

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I am glad about this change, I was never able to use the art of "clipping" and enver understood why you had to undergo such a process to get high numbers with this spec. Now its "as its supposed to be" and I like it that way to be honest!

 

On this point I agree, now it works as intended. Still, the problem is more the 2 stack instead of three. Carnage was always a spec about alacrity, dealing damage as much as possible. Berserk allowed you to fit three ability into Ferocity with ease, without clipping. With only two stack even under berserk, the spec lose all of its appeal. What's the point of stacking alacrity then ? What's the point of using Berserk to burst ? :/

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Yeah, that's what should be done imo.

Making Ferocity give 100% armor pen. as long as there is still an active stack, adding Sweeping Slash and Ravage is a must, as those are very important for Carnage and adding an extra ferocity stack while under berserk would only make sense, this spec was all about alacrity, removing it now would be stupid and bad game design, along with a bigger dps loss than intended imo

 

I assume the reason why ravage is not included in the list is, because the ability is not a single hit but rather 3 hits. Knowing BW that would most likely mean, that every single hit of ravage would use up a stack. Probably the same reason why ataru-form hits are not included either.

I'm not saying that's ok or even a good thing, just a possible reason.

I do agree on the 3 rather than 2 stacks. The change like it was presented looks like an awfully huge nerf to me.

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