I agree with the OP, been getting rolled by the same pvp guild premades most of the afternoon. We desperatly need cross server pvp ques and seperation of premades and solo ques.

You think cross server PvP is going to be any different with no premades?

No one is stopping you from getting into a premade group except yourself.

not every premade is good. in fact, i would wager that the majority of premades are only marginally better than a group of complete pugs.

this argument comes down to the fact that casual pugs dont like losing to good premades. yeah, getting stomped sucks. but guess what? you can form your own premade! make friends! its an MMO ffs

mind linking that statment?

http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-may-25th-2012-%E2%80%93-special-edition-game-update-1.3

http://dulfy.net/2012/11/29/swtor-patch-1-6-livestream-qa-transcript/ (nr 5)

not every premade is good. in fact, i would wager that the majority of premades are only marginally better than a group of complete pugs.

 

this argument comes down to the fact that casual pugs dont like losing to good premades. yeah, getting stomped sucks. but guess what? you can form your own premade! make friends! its an MMO ffs

It doesn't work like that. Its not "log on and form your own group".

First, for many people, making a group takes time. That is time we don't always have. It can take upwards of an hour or two to from a competent group of people to queue up. This is taking time away from what most of us want to be doing: playing the game.

Even if marginally better, premades offer so much in terms of organization they more than make up for any issues they have. Generally speakin, premades that even run a sliver of communication will have a tremendous advantage in a system DESIGNED to allow puggers to pick up and play.

If the PvP system was specifically designed with a group in mind, then puggers wouldn't have much of an excuse as they wouldn't even be allowed to play. You know as well as I do that pugs keep the system alive. Without them it dies a quick death.

Premades of 4 or more need to go to their own queue, end of story. It got so bad in WoW they had to do the same thing. It got completely out of control.

Premades of 4 or more need to go to their own queue, end of story.

I'm gonna pound this in with nails until everybody knows.

THEY WILL NOT GET THEIR OWN QUEUE!

It doesn't work like that. Its not "log on and form your own group".

 

First, for many people, making a group takes time. That is time we don't always have. It can take upwards of an hour or two to from a competent group of people to queue up. This is taking time away from what most of us want to be doing: playing the game.

 

Even if marginally better, premades offer so much in terms of organization they more than make up for any issues they have. Generally speakin, premades that even run a sliver of communication will have a tremendous advantage in a system DESIGNED to allow puggers to pick up and play.

 

If the PvP system was specifically designed with a group in mind, then puggers wouldn't have much of an excuse as they wouldn't even be allowed to play. You know as well as I do that pugs keep the system alive. Without them it dies a quick death.

 

Premades of 4 or more need to go to their own queue, end of story. It got so bad in WoW they had to do the same thing. It got completely out of control.

you just stated in your own post why a Premade only queue will fail. pugs are required to fill warzone slots to keep queues moving. you separate them, and it is only a matter of time before groups are funneling the solo queue in order to get in together. and youre back to square one

this would be a complete non-issue if the average player was not such a window licking mouth breather. a little situational awareness, utilizing chat communication, and general common sense game play would make warzones infinitely more competitive and fun

you just stated in your own post why a Premade only queue will fail. pugs are required to fill warzone slots to keep queues moving. you separate them, and it is only a matter of time before groups are funneling the solo queue in order to get in together. and youre back to square one

 

 

this would be a complete non-issue if the average player was not such a window licking mouth breather. a little situational awareness, utilizing chat communication, and general common sense game play would make warzones infinitely more competitive and fun

I use facts.

Fact: This solution worked in another game. It worked so well they never revisited it and the topic died almost immediately.

The fact that you have to default to name calling like "window licking mouth breather" shows your character. You are framing the problem the way you want to see it, not the way it really is.

Your framing bias and observer bias is grossly obvious.

It doesn't work like that. Its not "log on and form your own group".

 

1. First, for many people, making a group takes time. That is time we don't always have. It can take upwards of an hour or two to from a competent group of people to queue up. This is taking time away from what most of us want to be doing: playing the game.

 

2. Even if marginally better, premades offer so much in terms of organization they more than make up for any issues they have. Generally speakin, premades that even run a sliver of communication will have a tremendous advantage in a system DESIGNED to allow puggers to pick up and play.

 

3. If the PvP system was specifically designed with a group in mind, then puggers wouldn't have much of an excuse as they wouldn't even be allowed to play. You know as well as I do that pugs keep the system alive. Without them it dies a quick death.

 

4. Premades of 4 or more need to go to their own queue, end of story. It got so bad in WoW they had to do the same thing. It got completely out of control.

I really wish you'd read most of the thread, because everything I'm about to say has been said atleast a dozen times. I numbered your paragraphs so I can respond more easily.

1. If you've made friends and/or joined a guild, forming the average premade is less than a few minutes process. Type "Spot for PvP?" You either get an invite, or someone says "I'm solo atm." Follow up with /invite, and snag people as you go. I don't believe anyone is saying "Never solo queue again" ... if you only got a match or two of time, then it's not that big a deal. If you are on for an hour or more... group up.

2. I don't know if this was refering to organization as in team composition or just more organized fighting. If it's the former, it's still luck of the draw, just a little better. A team with a healer and a tank could just as easily be grouped with 3 other healers or 3 more tanks as it could 4 dps. If it's the second... more organized fighting is based on a willingness of each player to communicate and/or follow instructions... which just means the premaders are better players. Why is that a crime?

3. If the PvP was designed with "solo-centric" (ie, not forming a group, relying on randoms or thinking your own skill will carry your team) They'd just have 1 vs 1 warzones. PuG warzone teams are like a PuG'ed Flashpoint/Warzone... they -can- get the job done, they're just alot less likely than a premade, =P simply cause most "good" players see the logic in making your own team and gravitate towards it.

4. You will not get split queue's more than likely, atleast not in the next few updates. Bioware confirmed in it's Q&A (link can be found in this thread if you look). Instead they are aiming for a comprehensive match making system that will balance the teams on some criteria, while remaining flexible enough to get as many matches as possible in a decent amount of time.

I'm gonna pound this in with nails until everybody knows.

 

THEY WILL NOT GET THEIR OWN QUEUE!

Meh it would be nice if they did, most of the devs statements were its on the back burner, no update as of yet bla bla, they know about as much about pvp and what they want to do with it as some people that never played SWTOR, HA i bet most of them never even pvped in this game ever. LOL it would explain alot. stun stun stun, premade premade premade explitive deleted........

I bet if lots left swtor because of premades and the overly excesive CC they would change the ques to be seperate and add a cross server pvp que.

I use facts.

 

Fact: This solution worked in another game. It worked so well they never revisited it and the topic died almost immediately.

 

The fact that you have to default to name calling like "window licking mouth breather" shows your character. You are framing the problem the way you want to see it, not the way it really is.

 

Your framing bias and observer bias is grossly obvious.

the way i see it is not wrong. please see the current, and old, thread regarding how complicated a compass rose is.

random pugs do not call incomings (i guess they had their keyboard stunlocked?), when they do respond to incomings they most often zerg and over rotate, they use CC willy nilly rather than strategically, they become hostile when someone attempts to provide leadership ("you dont pay my sub, ill do what i want!"), etc etc. i can go on and on and on about how laughably terrible to vast majority of pug players are.

if these random pugs played with even the slightest bit of common sense, the slightest bit of effort to coordinate with their teammates, the slightest bit of overall awareness of what is going on around them, then warzones would be far more competitve, and fun, overall.

call me a jerk if you want, but what i am saying is the cold hard truth about the community in this game. good players are very few and very far between

It doesn't work like that. Its not "log on and form your own group".

 

First, for many people, making a group takes time. That is time we don't always have. It can take upwards of an hour or two to from a competent group of people to queue up. This is taking time away from what most of us want to be doing: playing the game.

 

Even if marginally better, premades offer so much in terms of organization they more than make up for any issues they have. Generally speakin, premades that even run a sliver of communication will have a tremendous advantage in a system DESIGNED to allow puggers to pick up and play.

 

If the PvP system was specifically designed with a group in mind, then puggers wouldn't have much of an excuse as they wouldn't even be allowed to play. You know as well as I do that pugs keep the system alive. Without them it dies a quick death.

 

Premades of 4 or more need to go to their own queue, end of story. It got so bad in WoW they had to do the same thing. It got completely out of control.

Well said.

I use facts.

 

Fact: This solution worked in another game. It worked so well they never revisited it and the topic died almost immediately.

 

The fact that you have to default to name calling like "window licking mouth breather" shows your character. You are framing the problem the way you want to see it, not the way it really is.

 

Your framing bias and observer bias is grossly obvious.

Bump for justice because this guy knows what he's talking about and says it in a manner so eloquent and solid that it deserves much love. Rally for:

Cross Realm Queues

Adequate Matchmaking

AND <----

Split Queues

These three in tandem will fix all issues, including the pretense of extended queue times for Premades despite the separation of queues which WILL undeniably make the vast majority of the player base happy. We need all three, not just one, or two.

In this system Pugs would be used only as a last resort to fill Premade games when a reasonable amount of time has passed and no adequate group composition combinations could be used to fill the Wz match (before the match begins) Using Pugs to fill fresh games as a last resort is reasonable, using them to back fill a game that is not a victim of jump ship syndrome, is reasonable. Using them to fill a game that is destined to be Premade Vs Pug is NOT reasonable and WILL repel the overwhelming majority of the player base. If this is what you people desire, keep at it, you will kill your own game. Pug Vs Premade =/=(does not equal) competition, claiming it provides any tangible benefit to either side of the community is plain and simply short sighted, naive, ignorant and more than likely a desperate cling to Pugroflstomping.

Well said.

 

 

 

Bump for justice because this guy knows what he's talking about and says it in a manner so eloquent and solid that it deserves much love. Rally for:

 

Cross Realm Queues

Adequate Matchmaking

AND <----

Split Queues

 

These three in tandem will fix all issues, including the pretense of extended queue times for Premades despite the separation of queues which WILL undeniably make the vast majority of the player base happy. We need all three, no just one, or two.

 

In this system Pugs would be used only as a last resort to fill Premade games when a reasonable amount of time has passed and no adequate group composition combinations could be used to fill the Wz match (before the match begins) Using Pugs to fill fresh games as a last resort is reasonable, using them to back fill a game that is not a victim of jump ship syndrome, is reasonable. Using them to fill a game that is destined to be Premade Vs Pug is NOT reasonable and WILL repel the overwhelming majority of the player base. If this is what you people desire, keep at it, you will kill your own game. Pug Vs Premade =/=(does not equal) competition, claiming it provides any tangible benefit to either side of the community is plain and simply short sighted, naive, ignorant and more than likely a desperate cling to Pugroflstomping.

Agreed on your point.

Premades will sit in queues and play other premades if they are really in it for the game and challenge. If they really want to step up to the plate then they should have no qualms playing other premades.

The funny part is I do participate in premades when I can and we destroy pugs. Its not even close. I have had multiple three turret wins on ACW and denova coast because when we communicate there is nothing a pug group can do. It doesn't matter if they pug is even typing or chatting about what to do. They can't compete with a group that has a plan and a reaction plan. Every once in a while we run into another premade because the queue actually seperated us but most of the time its two premades versus a pick up group.

Its absurd. Its non competitive and its out of control. The time to fix it is now.

Agreed on your point.

 

Premades will sit in queues and play other premades if they are really in it for the game and challenge. If they really want to step up to the plate then they should have no qualms playing other premades.

 

The funny part is I do participate in premades when I can and we destroy pugs. Its not even close. I have had multiple three turret wins on ACW and denova coast because when we communicate there is nothing a pug group can do. It doesn't matter if they pug is even typing or chatting about what to do. They can't compete with a group that has a plan and a reaction plan. Every once in a while we run into another premade because the queue actually seperated us but most of the time its two premades versus a pick up group.

 

Its absurd. Its non competitive and its out of control. The time to fix it is now.

*Sighs*

They are equalizing gear, and if you look for it there is a link in this thread to a Q&A where they say they are adding matchmaking in.

=P pretty much /thread. I called it.

*Sighs*

 

They are equalizing gear, and if you look for it there is a link in this thread to a Q&A where they say they are adding matchmaking in.

 

=P pretty much /thread. I called it.

I saw that as a very big positive. However, if the system still allows premades to play pick up groups, it doesn't matter. The problem is premade versus pug. Its not always gear. I would venture to say a premade with weaker gear will more often that not beat a pug in better gear.

lets say that we get split queues. when the premade only queue starts to slow down (which it will), players will start to queue "together" into the solo queue. with a small amount of effort and coordination, it is not difficult to funnel down your warzone invites until it is highly likely that you will get in with whoever you are coordinating with (this can actually be done with 2 4-man premades to get a full 8-man premade in non-ranked wzs).

so what happens when "premades" start invading the solo-only queues? the end result will be the same as we have now: groups of players will be together in warzones using voice communication and superior tactics to fight true pugs.

what do we do then?

I really wish you'd read most of the thread, because everything I'm about to say has been said atleast a dozen times. I numbered your paragraphs so I can respond more easily.

 

1. If you've made friends and/or joined a guild, forming the average premade is less than a few minutes process. Type "Spot for PvP?" You either get an invite, or someone says "I'm solo atm." Follow up with /invite, and snag people as you go. I don't believe anyone is saying "Never solo queue again" ... if you only got a match or two of time, then it's not that big a deal. If you are on for an hour or more... group up.

 

2. I don't know if this was refering to organization as in team composition or just more organized fighting. If it's the former, it's still luck of the draw, just a little better. A team with a healer and a tank could just as easily be grouped with 3 other healers or 3 more tanks as it could 4 dps. If it's the second... more organized fighting is based on a willingness of each player to communicate and/or follow instructions... which just means the premaders are better players. Why is that a crime?

 

3. If the PvP was designed with "solo-centric" (ie, not forming a group, relying on randoms or thinking your own skill will carry your team) They'd just have 1 vs 1 warzones. PuG warzone teams are like a PuG'ed Flashpoint/Warzone... they -can- get the job done, they're just alot less likely than a premade, =P simply cause most "good" players see the logic in making your own team and gravitate towards it.

 

4. You will not get split queue's more than likely, atleast not in the next few updates. Bioware confirmed in it's Q&A (link can be found in this thread if you look). Instead they are aiming for a comprehensive match making system that will balance the teams on some criteria, while remaining flexible enough to get as many matches as possible in a decent amount of time.

I love your belief that the only good players out there are people who premake their groups, and only bad players solo queue. I hate to tell you, that isnt the case. And not every server is the same! On my server, Ive spammed for hours for LF Pre-Made WZs and gotten nothing. Plain and simple, its all up to what the population is desiring. On top of that, there are times that I only have time for one, maybe 2 WZs before I have to do something else. And I am quite sure there are others like me in the world. Your generalization is basically like stating "If your worse then me your a n00b loser and if your better then me you have no life." There are baddies in Premades, there are baddies in Solo queue. There are also good players in both.

Groups will always get gear faster, groups play more frequently together so they are more experienced with class info. Leadership and training is provided. Real world example, seal group vs local militia. Over geared players dominate even if they are average, hard to overcome getting smacked for 4500 3x and you have 13k hps.

I dont like it but I also dont pvp enough to complain, I understand my skill level and my gear situation. Ive been on the otherside of the coin in my hardcore days, its the nature of the beast.

lets say that we get split queues. when the premade only queue starts to slow down (which it will), players will start to queue "together" into the solo queue. with a small amount of effort and coordination, it is not difficult to funnel down your warzone invites until it is highly likely that you will get in with whoever you are coordinating with (this can actually be done with 2 4-man premades to get a full 8-man premade in non-ranked wzs).

 

 

so what happens when "premades" start invading the solo-only queues? the end result will be the same as we have now: groups of players will be together in warzones using voice communication and superior tactics to fight true pugs.

 

what do we do then?

This would happen and since most of them still won't group they will come here and cry more

I love your belief that the only good players out there are people who premake their groups, and only bad players solo queue. I hate to tell you, that isnt the case. And not every server is the same! On my server, Ive spammed for hours for LF Pre-Made WZs and gotten nothing. Plain and simple, its all up to what the population is desiring. On top of that, there are times that I only have time for one, maybe 2 WZs before I have to do something else. And I am quite sure there are others like me in the world. Your generalization is basically like stating "If your worse then me your a n00b loser and if your better then me you have no life." There are baddies in Premades, there are baddies in Solo queue. There are also good players in both.

Please note the word "most" directly before the word "Good."

As in to say, many, most, etc... but not all. If you've read my posts before, you'd know I don't think every solo player is a noob loser, just that most of the better players group up. Again... -most- but not -all- ... and not -all- the time.

=P kthxbye

It doesn't work like that. Its not "log on and form your own group".

 

First, for many people, making a group takes time. That is time we don't always have. It can take upwards of an hour or two to from a competent group of people to queue up. This is taking time away from what most of us want to be doing: playing the game.

 

Even if marginally better, premades offer so much in terms of organization they more than make up for any issues they have. Generally speakin, premades that even run a sliver of communication will have a tremendous advantage in a system DESIGNED to allow puggers to pick up and play.

 

If the PvP system was specifically designed with a group in mind, then puggers wouldn't have much of an excuse as they wouldn't even be allowed to play. You know as well as I do that pugs keep the system alive. Without them it dies a quick death.

 

Premades of 4 or more need to go to their own queue, end of story. It got so bad in WoW they had to do the same thing. It got completely out of control.

First, why does it take an hour or two to form a group? You don't have to have the absolute best players. Ask in guild chat when you log on. If your guild has any sort of subgroup that PVPs on a regular basis, you should find someone to play with quickly. You can still solo queue if no one says yes.

And you've already proven my point about it actually. A little organization and playing with players you trust goes a long way.

I say lets see how this matchmaking thing works out.

I say lets see how this matchmaking thing works out.

the best way for matchmaking for there to be a solo ranked queue. youd need a solo rating and a separate group rating. matchmaking would lump similarly solo-rated players together in the solo queue, while regular ranked would function as it currently does.

bioware is likely going to come up with some bs system centered around Valor rank, or average gear rating. which have nothing to do with in game skill, and only have to do with the amount of time invested into the game.

so you will still have throngs of people coming to the forums and whining that theyre are getting matched against opponents that are too hard.

I really wish you'd read most of the thread, because everything I'm about to say has been said atleast a dozen times. I numbered your paragraphs so I can respond more easily.

 

1. If you've made friends and/or joined a guild, forming the average premade is less than a few minutes process. Type "Spot for PvP?" You either get an invite, or someone says "I'm solo atm." Follow up with /invite, and snag people as you go. I don't believe anyone is saying "Never solo queue again" ... if you only got a match or two of time, then it's not that big a deal. If you are on for an hour or more... group up.

 

2. I don't know if this was refering to organization as in team composition or just more organized fighting. If it's the former, it's still luck of the draw, just a little better. A team with a healer and a tank could just as easily be grouped with 3 other healers or 3 more tanks as it could 4 dps. If it's the second... more organized fighting is based on a willingness of each player to communicate and/or follow instructions... which just means the premaders are better players. Why is that a crime?

 

3. If the PvP was designed with "solo-centric" (ie, not forming a group, relying on randoms or thinking your own skill will carry your team) They'd just have 1 vs 1 warzones. PuG warzone teams are like a PuG'ed Flashpoint/Warzone... they -can- get the job done, they're just alot less likely than a premade, =P simply cause most "good" players see the logic in making your own team and gravitate towards it.

 

4. You will not get split queue's more than likely, atleast not in the next few updates. Bioware confirmed in it's Q&A (link can be found in this thread if you look). Instead they are aiming for a comprehensive match making system that will balance the teams on some criteria, while remaining flexible enough to get as many matches as possible in a decent amount of time.

Where is the "Most" in this statement? Your "Most" comment isn't even referring to the players that group up, its to whether the "good" players see logic or not... Try Again?

 

Where is the "Most" in this statement? Your "Most" comment isn't even referring to the players that group up, its to whether the "good" players see logic or not... Try Again?

See the logic in grouping up?

<.< have you been up 48 hours again? That statement clearly says most "good" players see the logic in picking their team.

Unless you're refering to the comment about premades beating pugs via coordination... which isn't coordination a skill, and a sign of a good player?

I've read most of this thread..and I believe its time to bounce some things off the masses.

now first off

Arsenal Merc (not a pvp favorite atm. however its my personal favorite and the toon from which this post is based.)

i've been playing close to 10 months now. by the second month i was lvl 50 and had a valor rank of 50. I play at least 2-3 hours a day, at least 5 days a week. i have the time. i run at least 6 warzones per day.. most days many more.

its been 8 months since i hit 50. i'm still 2 peices short of fully augmented warhero. i solo que. and only a hand full of times have i been able to group que. as a solo que Imperial on Jedi Cov...and what used to be Canderous Ordo.

i avg 8 medals per warzone. i've got 12,900 some odd kills currently, and a total of 315 wins since i started pvping. mind you over 100 of those are from 10-49 bracket. my valor rank is 79. when i que for a day...i might win one out of every six to ten matches. even with 8 or more medals I don't make alot of comms. i spend roughly 1500 warzone per week on WZMed-packs. my avg dps is 350-400, my avg damage is 300k. and i normally have 7.5k defender.

i'm more defence than offence. i know each map, i've read every thread i can on pvp, i've done everything i can to better myself. i use Grenades. and stims. i normally die around 8 times per WZ.

anyhow...sorry for the ramble of stats and junk...my point was thanks to Pre-mades on my server.. its taken me over 8 months to get warhero gear. is this what Bio-ware wanted? damn near impossible to get pvp gear? i don't really understand how the newbs are supposed to get gear...i understand why alot quit...it takes so long its gonna take me at least another 4 weeks to finish getting my war hero at this rate. this is not fun. its painful. anyhow thats just my thoughts on why Pre-mades are killing Random Warzones.