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Server Merge Discussion Thread

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Server Merge Discussion Thread
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Foambreaker's Avatar


Foambreaker
08.09.2017 , 11:31 AM | #2031
Quote: Originally Posted by DWho View Post
...On the MMO point. This game never was an true MMO it was always an online RPG with MMO elements. From the beginning 80% of the game was set up for solo player content. That was one of the things that made it better than an MMO.
You are confusing sandbox and instanced, both however are MMOs.

DWho's Avatar


DWho
08.09.2017 , 02:10 PM | #2032
Quote: Originally Posted by Icykill_ View Post
Harbinger also has the highest variety of players that play group, pvp, solo story, solo or Rp. You really shouldn't use Harbinger as an example of people who don't understand because lots of us do because we have friends from all parts of the game. Just because you are on Harbinger doesn't mean you don't understand.

Even Harbinger is having fleet population issues. Where we used to have 4 instances 12 months ago at certain times of the day, now we have one or one and half. Harbinger fleet population is now 1/3 of where is was and grouped activity is suffering more than usual if you are outside the 4-5 hour bracket that still seems to have a reasonable population. If you play in that bracket you may not see any issues. But not everyone is able to play the game in that 4-5 hour bracket. That bracket is also shrinking fast. Only 6 months ago that bracket was 7 hours and 12 months ago it was 12 hours. If you go back two and half years ago it was 16-18 hours.

Considering the game is online 24 hours a day and is a global game, the expectation is to at least have 16 hours a day to play in (obviously not all in one chunk). When the busiest servers "healthy" time bracket is now down to 4-6 hours and shrinking, I can only imagine how bad the other servers are fairing, it doesnt bode well for the game.

I know a lot of the arguments that people are making here is by adding populations that don't group finder or doing much group content won't add anything to those populations that do. But the populations are getting so small now that just having 10 extra people put into the group mix at certain times can have an positive affect on group content. It doesn't matter what server you are on because there will always be a few that will do group content if given the chance and by consolidating them all in one place it can have an impact even if it is only a small one.

The lower the populations drop, the more urgent it is to bring everyone together. As an example, it's better to have 16 people all queued for pvp on the one server than 16 people queued over 3-4 servers.
OK, let do a little math. We'll use PVP as the example since it is entirely dependent on random groups (save the premades that are showing up) Now we'll us JC as the example since it is the server I am most familiar with. During prime time WZs pop every 5 minutes or so. That means 3 or 4 active warzones at a time. We'll round it up to 5 WZs so that is 80 players queuing for PVP . We'll round that up to 100 players just for a nice easy number to work with. During prime time the population on JC is at least 1600 (7 of 8 Rep advanced classes show as 100 or more so assuming 800 Rep and an equal number of Imp seems reasonable). So that means 1500 of the people on JC are not queuing for WZ. So in order to get the 100 players queueing for WZs better pops (a portion of which are casuals and don't care anyway) we are going to move 1500 other people. It would seem the most efficient process would be to move the 100 that are dependent on random pops. At most I would estimate there would be another 100 people Pugging OPs, FPs, and Uprisings. So you are still talking about something on the order of 1400 people that do not need to be on a higher population server. If there were 100 people on Harbinger that wanted to move to a less populated server, would you move 1400 other people who want to be on Harbinger to that new server?

DWho's Avatar


DWho
08.09.2017 , 02:13 PM | #2033
Quote: Originally Posted by Foambreaker View Post
You are confusing sandbox and instanced, both however are MMOs.
Yes but very different MMOs. Sandboxed MMOs are very dependent on high server populations, instanced ones are not. SWTOR would be classified as an Instanced MMO using your terms.

masterceil's Avatar


masterceil
08.09.2017 , 02:26 PM | #2034
Quote: Originally Posted by DWho View Post
OK, let do a little math. We'll use PVP as the example since it is entirely dependent on random groups (save the premades that are showing up) Now we'll us JC as the example since it is the server I am most familiar with. During prime time WZs pop every 5 minutes or so. That means 3 or 4 active warzones at a time. We'll round it up to 5 WZs so that is 80 players queuing for PVP . We'll round that up to 100 players just for a nice easy number to work with. During prime time the population on JC is at least 1600 (7 of 8 Rep advanced classes show as 100 or more so assuming 800 Rep and an equal number of Imp seems reasonable). So that means 1500 of the people on JC are not queuing for WZ. So in order to get the 100 players queueing for WZs better pops (a portion of which are casuals and don't care anyway) we are going to move 1500 other people. It would seem the most efficient process would be to move the 100 that are dependent on random pops. At most I would estimate there would be another 100 people Pugging OPs, FPs, and Uprisings. So you are still talking about something on the order of 1400 people that do not need to be on a higher population server. If there were 100 people on Harbinger that wanted to move to a less populated server, would you move 1400 other people who want to be on Harbinger to that new server?
That is some of the worst "napkin math" I've ever seen on the SWTOR forums. Quite an achievement.
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DWho's Avatar


DWho
08.09.2017 , 02:32 PM | #2035
Quote: Originally Posted by masterceil View Post
That is some of the worst "napkin math" I've ever seen on the SWTOR forums. Quite an achievement.
Please explain the flaws in the assumptions then. There are 2 numbers used in the calculation

1) How many people do you think are queueing for WZs on JC and what evidence do you have for that

2) How many people are on JC during prime time and what evidence do you have for that?

Edit: at 4:41 ET (well outside prime time that starts at about 7 ET) there were 474 Pub players assuming an equal number of Imps that would be at least 948 and there was only 1 active WZ. (roughly 1200 on Harbinger at the same time)

masterceil's Avatar


masterceil
08.09.2017 , 03:18 PM | #2036
Quote: Originally Posted by DWho View Post
Please explain the flaws in the assumptions then. There are 2 numbers used in the calculation

1) How many people do you think are queueing for WZs on JC and what evidence do you have for that

2) How many people are on JC during prime time and what evidence do you have for that?

Edit: at 4:41 ET (well outside prime time that starts at about 7 ET) there were 474 Pub players assuming an equal number of Imps that would be at least 948 and there was only 1 active WZ. (roughly 1200 on Harbinger at the same time)
*clears throat*

Quote: Originally Posted by DWho View Post
OK, let do a little math. We'll use PVP as the example since it is entirely dependent on random groups (save the premades that are showing up)
Premades do indeed show up, and automatically dismissing them is the first mistake.
Quote: Originally Posted by DWho View Post
Now we'll us JC as the example since it is the server I am most familiar with. During prime time WZs pop every 5 minutes or so. That means 3 or 4 active warzones at a time.
  1. How do you, as a single observer, know warzones are popping "every 5 minutes or so"? If you're going into the warzone, you don't know what's popping while you're in there - if you cancel your pop, you don't know if the subsequent pop is to fill a spot or is a different warzone.
  2. How big a variance is "or so"? The difference between legitimate warzone pops every three minutes and every seven minutes is very significant. Also, is this the fastest they pop, or an average over time? How much time?
  3. Warzones can last anywhere from 3 minutes to 15. Two of the pops could just be arenas, but at most they're probably 15 minutes (NC can technically go on forever, but it's pretty rare for mid to go uncapped that long). But whatever, call a five-minute delay 3 or 4 active at a time, sure.
Quote: Originally Posted by DWho View Post
We'll round it up to 5 WZs
No. You do not round "3 or 4" up to 5. That's a 25-66% increase from your own stated assumption, and does insane things to the math further down the road. Biggest mistake so far.
Quote: Originally Posted by DWho View Post
so that is 80 players queuing for PVP .
Again discounting 4v4 arenas. Using the original numbers of "3 or 4", this is anywhere between 24 and 64 players. Again, a significant difference from the 80 you pulled out of your arse along with the "round up to 5" bit.
Quote: Originally Posted by DWho View Post
We'll round that up to 100 players
This is a 25% increase from your original number that was flawed af to begin with!!! Do you legitimately just not know what "rounding" means? And don't be lazy, do the math. Google has a calculator if you can't work with numbers that don't end with two zeroes.
Quote: Originally Posted by DWho View Post
just for a nice easy number to work with. During prime time the population on JC is at least 1600 (7 of 8 Rep advanced classes show as 100 or more so assuming 800 Rep and an equal number of Imp seems reasonable).
As any player on about any server will tell you, that is absolutely not reasonable! Most servers have far more imps than pubs. I understand JC to be the reverse of this, but they're still not equal. Also, are you talking about just 70s, 10-70 (warzonable), or everything on the server? If your math is based on 70s pops, only the 70s matter.
Quote: Originally Posted by DWho View Post
So that means 1500 of the people on JC are not queuing for WZ.
1536
Quote: Originally Posted by DWho View Post
So in order to get the 100 players queueing for WZs better pops (a portion of which are casuals and don't care anyway) we are going to move 1500 other people.
64 And again, the question of whether you're talking about everyone on the server or not comes into play. And people levelling lowbies that aren't yet 70, but will be - I'm currently working on a new character having tons of fun in midbies, and will probably be pretty active in 70s once I finally get there.

Also, we're talking about a merge - not a move. If BW did a solid, proper merging of the servers, the only thing the players would notice - including the 1536 not queuing for (70s?) warzones - is more people on the server. Most of the discussion on whether or not BW should merge is counting on them getting Strongholds, Guilds, and other sht to be handled seamlessly. So more Harb trolls on fleet should be all players from, say, Bastion would notice.
Quote: Originally Posted by DWho View Post
It would seem the most efficient process would be to move the 100 that are dependent on random pops.
What about people that may get into the random pops? What about the friends and swtor family of the 64* people queuing for (70s?) warzones? One of my guild officers practically lives in warzones - I wouldn't want her to have to choose between her beloved guild and being shunted off to another server to collate all the PvPers or whatever.
Quote: Originally Posted by DWho View Post
At most I would estimate there would be another 100 people Pugging OPs, FPs, and Uprisings.
And where in the blue fk did you pull that number from?! "Hurr durrr, i liek hunnerts"?!?
Quote: Originally Posted by DWho View Post
So you are still talking about something on the order of 1400 people that do not need to be on a higher population server. If there were 100 people on Harbinger that wanted to move to a less populated server, would you move 1400 other people who want to be on Harbinger to that new server?
Merges, not moves.

But seriously, if you're going to do math, do it the fk right. Don't give Data Analysts everywhere migraines with your senseless, inane bs.
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Foambreaker's Avatar


Foambreaker
08.09.2017 , 03:30 PM | #2037
Quote: Originally Posted by DWho View Post
Yes but very different MMOs. Sandboxed MMOs are very dependent on high server populations, instanced ones are not. SWTOR would be classified as an Instanced MMO using your terms.
Actually it is the instances that require population; you have it reversed.

In a sandbox there are no numbers needed to do anything except PvP, you need 2 players to do that. There is no Q waiting for 8 or 16 players to be ready.

FerkWork's Avatar


FerkWork
08.09.2017 , 03:43 PM | #2038
Quote: Originally Posted by masterceil View Post
That is some of the worst "napkin math" I've ever seen on the SWTOR forums. Quite an achievement.
Not to mention blatant lying. Normal wait times are about 10 minutes at the fastest and average about 15 minutes on JC. Ranked is dead. MM FPs barely pop even as a tank. MM Uprisings don't either. MM raiding is two guilds and some spare people. Fleet pugs are active only during a very narrow part of prime time. Only people who want the status quo are solo players who want to be king of a dead castle. There is no need for both SL and JC at this point. Or just move JC into Harb so we can have an active server again.


Until then JC is a wasteland.
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DWho's Avatar


DWho
08.09.2017 , 04:03 PM | #2039
Quote: Originally Posted by masterceil View Post
*clears throat*


Premades do indeed show up, and automatically dismissing them is the first mistake.
  1. How do you, as a single observer, know warzones are popping "every 5 minutes or so"? If you're going into the warzone, you don't know what's popping while you're in there - if you cancel your pop, you don't know if the subsequent pop is to fill a spot or is a different warzone.
  2. How big a variance is "or so"? The difference between legitimate warzone pops every three minutes and every seven minutes is very significant. Also, is this the fastest they pop, or an average over time? How much time?
  3. Warzones can last anywhere from 3 minutes to 15. Two of the pops could just be arenas, but at most they're probably 15 minutes (NC can technically go on forever, but it's pretty rare for mid to go uncapped that long). But whatever, call a five-minute delay 3 or 4 active at a time, sure.

No. You do not round "3 or 4" up to 5. That's a 25-66% increase from your own stated assumption, and does insane things to the math further down the road. Biggest mistake so far.

Again discounting 4v4 arenas. Using the original numbers of "3 or 4", this is anywhere between 24 and 64 players. Again, a significant difference from the 80 you pulled out of your arse along with the "round up to 5" bit.

This is a 25% increase from your original number that was flawed af to begin with!!! Do you legitimately just not know what "rounding" means? And don't be lazy, do the math. Google has a calculator if you can't work with numbers that don't end with two zeroes.

As any player on about any server will tell you, that is absolutely not reasonable! Most servers have far more imps than pubs. I understand JC to be the reverse of this, but they're still not equal. Also, are you talking about just 70s, 10-70 (warzonable), or everything on the server? If your math is based on 70s pops, only the 70s matter.

1536

64 And again, the question of whether you're talking about everyone on the server or not comes into play. And people levelling lowbies that aren't yet 70, but will be - I'm currently working on a new character having tons of fun in midbies, and will probably be pretty active in 70s once I finally get there.

Also, we're talking about a merge - not a move. If BW did a solid, proper merging of the servers, the only thing the players would notice - including the 1536 not queuing for (70s?) warzones - is more people on the server. Most of the discussion on whether or not BW should merge is counting on them getting Strongholds, Guilds, and other sht to be handled seamlessly. So more Harb trolls on fleet should be all players from, say, Bastion would notice.

What about people that may get into the random pops? What about the friends and swtor family of the 64* people queuing for (70s?) warzones? One of my guild officers practically lives in warzones - I wouldn't want her to have to choose between her beloved guild and being shunted off to another server to collate all the PvPers or whatever.

And where in the blue fk did you pull that number from?! "Hurr durrr, i liek hunnerts"?!?

Merges, not moves.

But seriously, if you're going to do math, do it the fk right. Don't give Data Analysts everywhere migraines with your senseless, inane bs.
Well

It was not meant to be an exhaustive analysis of PVP and server populations. The point was that the people who "need" higher populations are a very small fraction of the overall population. The estimates made were designed to inflate the numbers of that group to cover various contingencies. Even if a merge is done right, what I will see as a story player is a massive increase in competition for open world objectives, which is by far the majority of them, making the game more frustrating to play (I was around when starter planet populations were around 150 and it took you a whole evening to complete 3 or 4 missions which might net you 1 level because you were constantly waiting for respawns.). I will also have to deal with more toxic chat and so much activity in chat that I can't read what is said before it scrolls up out of the window. All this for a very small fraction of the population that could easily move themselves to a more populated server but refuse to do so and would rather force everyone else in the game to move so they can have things the way they want. And before someone says "Aren't you inconveniencing people by wanting to stay put", the answer is no. My staying on the server I am on does not in any way prevent you from moving to a server more suitable to your playstyle whereas forcibly merging me with a server that suits your playstyle negatively impacts me. If I wanted to be on a high population server, I would move there. JC is the right population for my playstyle. If you want to merge the PVP servers to Shadowland to boost its population or merge them all into one server then do so but leave the mid population servers alone. There is absolutely no need to merge all of the east coast servers into 1 server.

DWho's Avatar


DWho
08.09.2017 , 04:08 PM | #2040
Quote: Originally Posted by FerkWork View Post
Not to mention blatant lying. Normal wait times are about 10 minutes at the fastest and average about 15 minutes on JC. Ranked is dead. MM FPs barely pop even as a tank. MM Uprisings don't either. MM raiding is two guilds and some spare people. Fleet pugs are active only during a very narrow part of prime time. Only people who want the status quo are solo players who want to be king of a dead castle. There is no need for both SL and JC at this point. Or just move JC into Harb so we can have an active server again.


Until then JC is a wasteland.
You are absolutely full of it. I have done PVP on JC for over a year now and it has never taken 10 minutes for a pop during server prime time. Ranked is dead just about everywhere so it is ridiculous to even try to use that as some sort of indicator. You have it out for JC for some reason. If you don't like it move.