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Discussion concerning awareness/strategy.


Polymerize

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What strategies do you think could be implemented to solve some predicaments that so many teams find themselves in on Civil Wars?

 

You are team A.

You are playing against team B.

 

Situation #1

 

Team B has Grass Node and Snow Node.

Team A has Mid Node.

 

Ok, you have the set up part of the set up. Lets see if we can apply some logic to situation #1 as I further enhance the set up.

 

Team B has 4 people guarding Snow Node, and 4 people guarding Grass Node.

 

Team A left 2 people to guard Mid Node, and has sent 6 people to attack the Grass Node.

 

 

 

What do you think the 6 people who went to attack Grass Node should be aware in their plight to take Grass Node? Lets us assume that their goal is to take Grass Node; and they are not focused on doing random Damage/Healing/Protection in order to make their stats super shiny. What things should they be aware of?

 

The first thing they should be aware of is that if they kill someone on Team A's team they will be able to respawn and take the shuttle right back down to the Grass Node in a matter of about 12 seconds. This much is obvious, yet teams still try to take the Grass/Snow Nodes by killing Defenders ONE AT A TIME. This is bad and I'll tell you why.

 

The situation is that it is 6v4, in Team A's favor. Instead of focus targeting down individual Defenders one at a time, why not try to get all Defenders low, and once and wipe them all as close to successive nature as possible? This will give them no chance to take the speeder back down in time to stop the cap. STOP killing Defenders one at a time because you will NEVER take a side node doing that. Even if it were 8v4, Team A will still not be able to take the node if the 4 Defenders are competent players.

 

If you do not understand this situation I will simply it further.

 

 

Situation #2

 

Team A has the Mid Node.

Team B has the Grass Node and Snow Node.

 

Team B has 6 people defending Grass Node because Team A has 4 Attackers there.

Team A has 2 other people guarding Mid Node.

The other 2 people on Team A are attacking Snow Node.

The other 2 people on Team B are defending Snow Node.

 

At this point there is a 6v4 going on at Grass Node in favor of team B.

At this point there is also a 2v2 going on at Snow Node.

 

Lets focus on the 2v2 that is occurring at Snow Node.

 

Team A has 2 very powerful players Snow Node. Team B has 2 weak players at Snow Node. It is apparent that Team A can kill Team B at the Snow Node.

 

Team A should not kill one Team B defender at a time. Team A should get both Team B Defenders low on health so they can both be killed in as close proximity as possible. This will allow Team A to cap Snow Node because both Defenders will be taking the shuttle back simultaneously and will not be able to stop the cap.

 

But instead, most 2v2s will flow in the way that one team will be able to kill one of the other guys so it will become a 2v1. If it is a 2v1 in favor of the attacking team, it will soon not be in their favor. Because the surviving defender will stay alive long enough, because his health isn't low, and the defender that died will be back in the battle in a matter of ~12 seconds and will be full health and he'll easily stop the cap. If is a 2v1 in favor of the defenders then obviously the situation is a wash and the remaining attacker will be killed with no chance to cap the node.

 

So this applies to larger scale battles than 2v2's, as I set up earlier.

 

So please understand this logic and be aware that if you are not killing Defenders in close proximity to each other you are doing your team an extreme disfavor and you will not be able to cap the node against skilled players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also need to point out the fact that this community needs to be more aware in terms of stopping Defenders from rotating. Think back to the Situation #1

 

Team A has applies the logic I mentioned earlier and kills all four of Team B's Defenders in close proximity. Before Team A has wiped out Team B's Defenders, SOMEONE, JUST ONE PERSON, from Team A that is attacking the Grass Node needs to have the awareness to know that his teammates can handle whats going on without him, and head towards bottom mid in order to CC/Slow/immobilize any Defenders that are rotating from Snow Node.

 

^ This point could be elaborated on much further and pointed out in many more situations that involve sending someone to stall a team that has over rotated/overloaded to one side of the map, etc. This point will be elaborated on in future threads in much more detail because it is very important.

 

 

 

Applying these strategies will not increase your amount of Damage/Protection/Healing/Kills. Applying these strategies will not get you noticed by people who judge a player by the stats they put up on the scoreboard.

 

Applying these strategies will make you a better player. Applying these strategies will help you win games.

Edited by Polymerize
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arrrrgh its like calculus and physics rolled into one.

 

If team A sends 6 to grass leaving mid, usually team B will send 2 from snow leaving 2 at snow. If, one of the 2 from Team A is good enough at 2v1 or knows how to put applied pressure on Team B by attacking snow, (if they kill one person and cc the other to continue to fight) then Team B must respond by sending someone from grass to snow.

 

If team A get's wiped out at grass then the fight and pressure is already on at snow, causing a swap roughly 10-15 secs without /stuck. Thus is Team A is fast enough to hit snow they can use that delay time to capture snow if one of their team heads to the tunnel and forcing people to slow(cc, mez whatever).

 

It requires High skill at applied pressure, usually a stealth is best, because they can initiate the fight and make people panic. People may counter this strat by saying that 1 person can't 2v1 or whatever, but sometimes it's not the win in a 2v1 fight that matters.

 

As a Operative I have a golden rule for pvping anyways.

 

Make your opponents blow their cooldowns on you so your teammate can finish the kill if need be.

 

my head hurts with your theoretical situation and trying to follow the team A and B scenario.

Edited by AngelofCain
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Calulus and Phyiscs FTW bro :D (I'm a Chemical Engineering major I love that ****.)

 

There are an impossible amount of situations. I just made those situations to help convey a point. It is much easier to show what is going on through a video but I do not have those capabilities at the moment.

 

The point I am trying to convey is that if you try to kill Defenders one at a time at the side nodes on Civil War you will not likely ever get the cap since they can just shuttle back within ~12 seconds.

 

You should attempt to kill the Defenders at the same time. So if there is a 3v3 going on at Snow Node and you walk into the battle to make it a 4v3. (You are an Attacker at this point because the other team has the node.) Instead of going up to the Defender with the lowest amount of health you should attack the Defender that has the most amount of health. This will give your team a better chance to take the node because your team will kill all 3 Defenders more or less at the same time. Versus if you would have initially went up and killed the guy with the lowest amount of health and then your team would have focused another Defender and then oh ****, the first guy you killed is back in the battle again before you know it. Do you see the point I am trying to convey?

Edited by Polymerize
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Calulus and Phyiscs FTW bro :D (I'm a Chemical Engineering major I love that ****.)

 

There are an impossible amount of situations. I just made those situations to help convey a point. It is much easier to show what is going on through a video but I do not have those capabilities at the moment.

 

The point I am trying to convey is that if you try to kill Defenders one at a time at the side nodes on Civil War you will not likely ever get the cap since they can just shuttle back within ~12 seconds.

 

You should attempt to kill the Defenders at the same time. So if there is a 3v3 going on at Snow Node and you walk into the battle to make it a 4v3. (You are an Attacker at this point because the other team has the node.) Instead of going up to the Defender with the lowest amount of health you should attack the Defender that has the most amount of health. This will give your team a better chance to take the node because your team will kill all 3 Defenders more or less at the same time. Versus if you would have initially went up and killed the guy with the lowest amount of health and then your team would have focused another Defender and then oh ****, the first guy you killed is back in the battle again before you know it. Do you see the point I am trying to convey?

 

Same here for the major. ( except I am focused on Chemical Kinetics and thermodynamics.) I understand calculus, but physics just... remains physics to me. That is my brother's field not mine.)

 

I do understand the point. I was offering a counter strat as a addendum for people to be Aware of the fight and how people respond. This is my current and favorite strat. Use your team as a diversion to obtain a goal. Even if they all die, your goal remains the same. Find the weak point and dig a knife in there and twist.

Edited by AngelofCain
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Yeah I completely understand the scenario you bring up. Your scenario works like a freaking CHARM if your team does this...

 

If the remaining people on your team who are alive at Grass have the awareness that they are not going to be able to wipe the other team since it is like a 2v6 (LOL, you're be surprised.), and they stop trying to DPS and kill the other team... and they start to stall the Defenders at Grass Node from rotating by CC/slows.... then your team will cap Snow Node every time. To make another point, if your teammates that are in a 2v6 at Grass Node actually do end up killing a Defender at Grass Node is its AWFUL for your team because that same Defender they killed just spawned and took the shuttle to help defend the Snow Node.

 

I hope all readers can understand this logic.

 

Please do more than just read the thread, give some feedback.

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Yeah I completely understand the scenario you bring up. Your scenario works like a freaking CHARM if your team does this...

 

If the remaining people on your team who are alive at Grass have the awareness that they are not going to be able to wipe the other team since it is like a 2v6 (LOL, you're be surprised.), and they stop trying to DPS and kill the other team... and they start to stall the Defenders at Grass Node from rotating by CC/slows.... then your team will cap Snow Node every time. To make another point, if your teammates that are in a 2v6 at Grass Node actually do end up killing a Defender at Grass Node is its AWFUL for your team because that same Defender they killed just spawned and took the shuttle to help defend the Snow Node.

 

I hope all readers can understand this logic.

 

 

 

Please do more than just read the thread, give some feedback.

 

And that is the problem. If your team can pull off being a diversion. Sometimes I miss Meow Mix, I'd say go big and they'd go big for me. Best damn diversion team I ever worked with.

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I only read situation A so I'll respond to that one. You send 6 to visibly attack 1 side node, but on the way have 2 stealthers stealth up and do a 180 for the other node. With any luck defenders call out 6 incs, the opponent sends 2 from one side to reinforce, and the stealthers (assuming theyre competent) shred the 2 at the other node with proper use of cc and focus.

 

That being said, I have no idea if that would apply to ranked. I'm not good enough with hybrid shadow and no one wants infil on their team so I very rarely play ranked.

 

Edit: I don't know about the op, but is it a coincidence that the only people to respond to this thread primarily play stealth classes? I think not.

Edited by Kurvv
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I'm not sure I buy into your "whittle them all down to low, then finish them all off at once" strategy. I'm of the opinion (remember, opinions can be changed easier than beliefs) that while you are getting them all low, they will be busy focus firing and killing you off. Someone with 1/10th their health is hitting you just as hard as someone with 10/10s their health. Then, about the time you get all the defenders to "low" (whatever you decide that is) you will find that you are now outnumbered 2 to 1, and, because they are just as good as you, they end up taking you out instead.

 

Of course, that's all just made up numbers, but that's the way the games "feel" to me. I've been in plenty of matches where our PUG group is working on getting them all low coincidentally - because we don't focus fire at all, and each of the enemy toons is running around with 1/2 or 1/3 health. Instead of us somehow wiping them all out at the same time, and going on to cap, what usually happens is that we find that our 5 attackers has become 3... I mean 2... I mean 1... oh crap.

 

So, similar to your strat for voidstar, and timing deaths to the ticks on the door, I think I'm kinda leaning towards the idea that if you have a team that is pulling off these strategies against the other side, then you don't need to be pulling off these strategies. You'd be killing them just using brute-force (as you called it).

 

But I'm waiting to be convince otherwise. :)

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best strategy is to leave 1 stealth to guard 5-6 with healers go any side to overload it, and 1-2 stealth go another side to cap^^

 

ps. if they ll press mid hardly, then they ll lose a side..

pps. players could not b equal otherwise both teams would have 1 side and fight for the mid endlessly

Edited by yauhen_pt
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That being said, I have no idea if that would apply to ranked. I'm not good enough with hybrid shadow and no one wants infil on their team so I very rarely play ranked.

 

Edit: I don't know about the op, but is it a coincidence that the only people to respond to this thread primarily play stealth classes? I think not.

 

I feel your pain. I was lucky though when I got picked to be on Meow Mix. I started with them on the same server, and we pvped so much that we just grooved together so well. My partner in all the matches was a sniper (unless there was a stealth job). The way we had things set up was like a buddy system. Healers and tanks went together and we split our remaining 4 dps into 2 kill squads. Usually mara and pt, and stabby op and sniper. But sometimes we just all worked together. P/ts with grapple and sins with pull were my second favorite people to team up with. they pull and I'd open just as they got there and it was just mass murder.

 

then the P/t crazy hit and slowly I got edged out in favor of FOTM.

 

Ah well 2147 rating is as good as I care to get til things get more stabby friendly.

 

As for the only people responding, it's probably cause shiny batstick wielders just jump in and hope for the best. Very few mara's I know actually understand strats, versus just smashing things. or how best to use abilities. I prefer predation over blood thirst only in the fact that it makes me harder to catch even in open combat, (especially in open combat) and it makes healers harder to catch if they are moving faster than the other team.

 

watching two teams when both pop predation is like (probably) being on the white pony.

 

and I realized that I derailed and lost the thought of the thread.

Edited by AngelofCain
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I only read situation A so I'll respond to that one. You send 6 to visibly attack 1 side node, but on the way have 2 stealthers stealth up and do a 180 for the other node. With any luck defenders call out 6 incs, the opponent sends 2 from one side to reinforce, and the stealthers (assuming theyre competent) shred the 2 at the other node with proper use of cc and focus.

 

That being said, I have no idea if that would apply to ranked. I'm not good enough with hybrid shadow and no one wants infil on their team so I very rarely play ranked.

 

Edit: I don't know about the op, but is it a coincidence that the only people to respond to this thread primarily play stealth classes? I think not.

 

Thank you for replying. But the simple fact of the matter is that you completely missed the point of the thread.

 

The situation is irrelevant. It is learning the logic of what I have presented so you can apply towards any situation you are faced with. I present situations in order to present the logic, otherwise there is no way to explain anything.

 

Read everything I wrote, thoroughly. Visualize what is written. Understand. Apply.

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no

 

it is definitely not

 

actually is is. Gotta understand the numbers in certain areas, and Human reaction vs actions taken.

 

so... not quite calculus, (I was making a joke on the team A vs team B deal), but still a lot of things to keep track of on the fly.

 

and physics, for every action there is a equal and opposite reaction.

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I'm not sure I buy into your "whittle them all down to low, then finish them all off at once" strategy. I'm of the opinion (remember, opinions can be changed easier than beliefs) that while you are getting them all low, they will be busy focus firing and killing you off. Someone with 1/10th their health is hitting you just as hard as someone with 10/10s their health. Then, about the time you get all the defenders to "low" (whatever you decide that is) you will find that you are now outnumbered 2 to 1, and, because they are just as good as you, they end up taking you out instead.

 

Of course, that's all just made up numbers, but that's the way the games "feel" to me. I've been in plenty of matches where our PUG group is working on getting them all low coincidentally - because we don't focus fire at all, and each of the enemy toons is running around with 1/2 or 1/3 health. Instead of us somehow wiping them all out at the same time, and going on to cap, what usually happens is that we find that our 5 attackers has become 3... I mean 2... I mean 1... oh crap.

 

So, similar to your strat for voidstar, and timing deaths to the ticks on the door, I think I'm kinda leaning towards the idea that if you have a team that is pulling off these strategies against the other side, then you don't need to be pulling off these strategies. You'd be killing them just using brute-force (as you called it).

 

But I'm waiting to be convince otherwise. :)

 

I understand exactly what you are saying. Let me be clear.

 

Nothing I have mentioned in this thread, or my Voidstar thread, are ABSOLUTE answers to all situations. They do not apply at all times. If you understand the logic behind what I state, you can individually come up with your own situations in which these rules/strategies do apply.

 

Try to focus less on what the exact situation is and more on what the logic is, and why it makes sense.

 

Situation X - Your team is attacking Grass Node because the other team is defending it.

 

It is a 5v3 in your team's favor. You show up in the mix and it is now a 6v3. It is APPARENT that your team will be able to wipe all of the defenders out. You do not attack the lowest defender, you attack a defender with more health in the attempt to wipe all of the defenders out at once. Your team wipes them all at once. Your team caps the node.

 

Summarize: When it is OBVIOUS/APPARENT that your team will be able to kill everyone, you should apply this logic.

 

Situation Y - It is a 6v6 at the Grass Node. YOU LEAVE. Because your team will never cap the node against a good team when it is anything bigger than a 4v4, I'd say. If you leave (or you die) and some of your remaining teammates focus on stalling/CC'ing the Defenders and keeping them at that node then they are doing the right thing. You now have the opportunity to go to the other node since they Defenders are overloaded at Grass Node. So in this case you do not focus on killing people at the same time or w/e, you drop that logic and you apply another logic due to the reasons I mentioned in this paragraph.

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So, similar to your strat for voidstar, and timing deaths to the ticks on the door, I think I'm kinda leaning towards the idea that if you have a team that is pulling off these strategies against the other side, then you don't need to be pulling off these strategies. You'd be killing them just using brute-force (as you called it).

 

But I'm waiting to be convince otherwise. :)

 

You don't see these strategies in RATEDS because the skill/quailty of the top RATED teams have not reached this point. They are hanging on to Brute Force only to do their job.

 

Do me a favor. Next time you play a game on Voidstar. When you hit the Attacker's round.

 

Do this:

 

LOOK AT THE TICKS ON THE DOOR. Tell yourself, ok, I see someone that is low on health, I know that their door is resetting in 5~7 seconds. I'm going to kill that mother ****er in about ~8 seconds. Kill that mother ****er. Go back and look at the door. Look at that guy you put behind the door for the entire ~30 seconds he is behind it.

 

Then tell me if you feel more vindicated and useful to your team than just running around blindly DPS'ing/Killing Defenders like everyone else in this game.

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You don't see these strategies in RATEDS because the skill/quailty of the top RATED teams have not reached this point. They are hanging on to Brute Force only to do their job.

 

Do me a favor. Next time you play a game on Voidstar. When you hit the Attacker's round.

 

Do this:

 

LOOK AT THE TICKS ON THE DOOR. Tell yourself, ok, I see someone that is low on health, I know that their door is resetting in 5~7 seconds. I'm going to kill that mother ****er in about ~8 seconds. Kill that mother ****er. Go back and look at the door. Look at that guy you put behind the door for the entire ~30 seconds he is behind it.

 

Then tell me if you feel more vindicated and useful to your team than just running around blindly DPS'ing/Killing Defenders like everyone else in this game.

 

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH... it's totally worth doing it too. then wait and cc him when it comes out just to rub salt in the wounds

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Dude, I am happy if I can just get people on my team to realize that Mid isn't worth any more points than the side nodes. I honest to god was on a team in 50 PvP and we took both sides with 4 people total, and those other 4 people stopped the cap at mid for a while. We were calling inc to a side node and those 4 people just stayed at mid. They lost mid and then we lost the side node because nobody would come defend. One of the idiots at mid pulled one of those epic rage quits where he cursed out every single player on the team before he left. One of the things he told us was that we lost the WZ as soon as we only sent 4 people to mid. That you can't win without mid. That it was the hardest to take and easiest to defend since it was so close to the speeders.

 

 

I had to track the guy down afterwards, and he was wearing full min maxed EWH gear. Which is a considerable grind. Ali don't even want to think about hoe many ACW's that guy has been in, but he was convinced that mid was the easiest to defend, and apparently hadn't figured out yet that you can ride speeders to side nodes. Those are the people I get grouped with regularly in PuG WZ's

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Dude, I am happy if I can just get people on my team to realize that Mid isn't worth any more points than the side nodes. I honest to god was on a team in 50 PvP and we took both sides with 4 people total, and those other 4 people stopped the cap at mid for a while. We were calling inc to a side node and those 4 people just stayed at mid. They lost mid and then we lost the side node because nobody would come defend. One of the idiots at mid pulled one of those epic rage quits where he cursed out every single player on the team before he left. One of the things he told us was that we lost the WZ as soon as we only sent 4 people to mid. That you can't win without mid. That it was the hardest to take and easiest to defend since it was so close to the speeders.

 

 

I had to track the guy down afterwards, and he was wearing full min maxed EWH gear. Which is a considerable grind. Ali don't even want to think about hoe many ACW's that guy has been in, but he was convinced that mid was the easiest to defend, and apparently hadn't figured out yet that you can ride speeders to side nodes. Those are the people I get grouped with regularly in PuG WZ's

 

that's because you neglected the Single Golden Rule for all pvp.

 

Never PVP sober, ever.

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