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"All DPS specs have the same target" same with Healing & Tanking

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
"All DPS specs have the same target" same with Healing & Tanking

Vid-szhite's Avatar


Vid-szhite
05.06.2012 , 08:45 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by gattiman View Post
In pve sure in pvp no.
Heavy Melee tend to have very weak CC to make up for their armor advantage, while light classes tend to have fast-recharging defense cooldowns and lots of CC and kiting abilities. Neither heavy melee class has an escape mechanic or very much in the way of hard CC, while all the light/med melee do.

Xaearth's Avatar


Xaearth
05.06.2012 , 09:21 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Niil View Post
The answer to that is very simple. The time it takes to throw those dispels and heals around is going to reduce damage done. Thus, the more someone does secondary functions, the less dps they do. You're pretending they do the same damage AND also heal and dispel when that's absolutely not the truth.
You're making it a black-and-white comparison. Not all utility is tied directly into hybrid roles.

For example, compare... well anything in any role to an Operative/Scoundrel in the same role. The Op/Scoundrel's utility is practically non-existent.

As a DPS, they have no target debuffs or group buffs (except lolworthy group stealth), no gap closer/poor mobility, and a kit/mechanics that are cumbersome at best when they aren't outright working against each other.

As a healer (which I'll give you was addressed by nerfing Merc/Commando into the ground), they have no buffs or group synergy built into their heals, no damage mitigation abilities, and really nothing but sustained healing and rather mediocre HoTs.

It isn't just about what someone can do if they dip into one of their other available roles. It's a small part, yes, but you also have to consider the bigger picture - even if all roles were made to be within 5% of each other, the disparities in class design makes some class/specs woefully undesirable compared to others.
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Niil's Avatar


Niil
05.06.2012 , 09:45 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Xaearth View Post
You're making it a black-and-white comparison. Not all utility is tied directly into hybrid roles.
<snip>
It isn't just about what someone can do if they dip into one of their other available roles. It's a small part, yes, but you also have to consider the bigger picture - even if all roles were made to be within 5% of each other, the disparities in class design makes some class/specs woefully undesirable compared to others.
I'm going to respond to the gist of your post instead of the specifics, because honestly theorycrafting has no value in this discussion. We're not discussing how it is now, we're discussing what the design intent is. A lot of what you're talking about is subjective. Woefully undesirable to you may not be to me. As long as everyone performs their role comparably, the rest is just fluff. Some people prefer ranged over melee, other people prefer melee over ranged. Some like the playstyle of a particular spec/class and hate others. The inherent value of a given spec for a raid is the role it performs and whether it's ranged or melee where a variety is promoted but not required. Yes, specific fights may suit certain specs better than others, but it's not like the intent is that one spec/class does well in every single fight in the game.

gattiman's Avatar


gattiman
05.06.2012 , 10:02 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Vid-szhite View Post
Heavy Melee tend to have very weak CC to make up for their armor advantage, while light classes tend to have fast-recharging defense cooldowns and lots of CC and kiting abilities. Neither heavy melee class has an escape mechanic or very much in the way of hard CC, while all the light/med melee do.
You think that balances things? Give me light armor and tons of mobility and CC anyday. Armor isn't worth squat in this game.

NoFishing's Avatar


NoFishing
05.07.2012 , 12:27 AM | #25
"We try to find non-invasive ways of bringing them closer to target". Right. I believe that. What you did to sage/sorc healing was totally non-invasive.

/sarcasm

theworldends's Avatar


theworldends
05.07.2012 , 02:08 AM | #26
People who think pure DPS classes have no utility don't know anything about the pure DPS classes. The utility Snipers and Marauders bring to a group with Ballistic Shield and Bloodthirst and such is so much better than the weak heals a DPS spec merc/sage/op could possibly provide.
A Mercenary can toss out a 3-5k heal here and there without having much heat issues from it. Ballistic Shield can easily prevent 10-20k damage. Bloodthirst can easily boost your healers' total output by more than 10k while also boosting group DPS.
The question isn't "why bring a sniper who just does dps when we can bring merc who dps and some heals?"
it's more like "why bring a merc who just has some weak heals when we can bring sniper who has so much utility?"

This goes double for PVP where Trauma makes a DPS spec's heals almost totally worthless.

Panthian's Avatar


Panthian
05.07.2012 , 04:08 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by gattiman View Post
Exactly. All things being equal a healer should be stronger than a hybrid healer and a dps should do more dps than a hybrid dps. The ability to fill two rolls at a whim should come at a price. Bioware obviously agrees look at mercs. We can dps and throw out paultry heals or heal and throw out paultry dps but never do both strongly.
And thats how it is right now in the game. Someone in a full dps spec doesnt have healing power worth mentioning, just like a full healer spec is doing tickle dps, someone using a hybrid spec is gimped in both aspects.
When a dps commando trows a heal they lose the cast time +gcd, + the ammo used, which severely impacts their dps.
From a dps perspective their dps is still very compedative, if its not onpar with the rest of the dps, it will be buffed in the future OR the other specs end up being nerved. BW never intended us to be weak at both, though I do agree the last patch did overnerf a bit. But ast long a "good"commando still can push 2k dps (dmg per second) , we are no where near as gimped as people trying to suggest.

Niil's Avatar


Niil
05.07.2012 , 04:19 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Panthian View Post
And thats how it is right now in the game. Someone in a full dps spec doesnt have healing power worth mentioning, just like a full healer spec is doing tickle dps, someone using a hybrid spec is gimped in both aspects.
When a dps commando trows a heal they lose the cast time +gcd, + the ammo used, which severely impacts their dps.
From a dps perspective their dps is still very compedative, if its not onpar with the rest of the dps, it will be buffed in the future OR the other specs end up being nerved. BW never intended us to be weak at both, though I do agree the last patch did overnerf a bit. But ast long a "good"commando still can push 2k dps (dmg per second) , we are no where near as gimped as people trying to suggest.
I believe your points were identical. It was written in a confusing way though I agree. As an aside, you're not seeing commando's doing 2k dps on anything. full marauder groups chaining bloodthirst aren't breaking 2k just yet, and they deal a good 30-50% more damage than mercenaries without stacking bloodthirsts (presuming commandos are are pub side variants, too lazy to look it up).

Mitsu's Avatar


Mitsu
05.08.2012 , 04:05 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by kiwoo View Post
The "Hybrid" classes have to be balanced less than pure DPS ACs as their utility has to be taken into consideration.

Otherwise there will be NO reason to have pure DPS classes in the game.

I asked this question in another post, surprisingly no-one answered.

If all ACs when specced into DPS can do the same level of damage, Why take pure DPS classes to an Ops/HM if a hybrid healer can do as much damage and still have the utility of heals. cures and shields when needed?

Thats why the utility of hybrids has to be factored into the equation when balancing.

My sage is balance specced and can still throw out 5k+ heals.

Otherwise to balance hybrid classes to do the same damage as pure DPS classes, then the pure DPS classes need a viable utility outside of pure damage to compare.
The "hybrid healer" know as a dps that has heals can only add those heals/shield etc and the cost of their dps. So having lower dps and taking the time out of dpsing to do other things means they would have even lower dps than what you apparently intend. Also, if you are in a raid as a balance sage and having to throw out so heals to help out your healers then perhaps your raid should be worried about taking competent healers and not worry about pure dps over "hybrid". Right?

After all, just because my shadow has a tank spec does not mean he can tank any better in dps gear and his dps spec then say a sentinel could. However, you could also argue that a sent in dps gear would actually prove better to tank for a short amount of time due to the cds that they have as opposed to the shadows. Not to say the shadow defensive cds are bad, because the cds are actually amazing. I'm just saying that a pure dps class has comparable survivability to a "hybrid" dps.

Just because a class is hybrid in the fact that it can dps or tank, or dps or heal. Does not mean that it can do both while being effective. A dps specced sage should do as much as a dps specced gunslinger, etc. Now if there comes a point that a hybrid can do both effective at the same time, then either the ones that cannot should excel higher, or the hybrids need to be examined so they can only do one role at a time.
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Tumri's Avatar


Tumri
05.08.2012 , 07:54 AM | #30
The biggest thing a hybrid DPS brings to a raid at this point are taunts and cleanses. Both are major tools that can make or break some encounters. On T&Z for example the healers will rarely be able to fully keep up with the stacking DoT cleanses and a hybrid DPS can provide a lot of raid utility though the occasional cleanse with an insignificant hit to DPS. On Firebrand & Stormcaller a hybrid can either taunt Firebrand to avoid having the tank get the debuff and avoid having your tanks do a somewhat risky tank-swap. On FB&SC a hybrid can cleanse the yellow targeting circles. On Kephess a hybrid can taunt Kephess during Breath of the Masters in a pinch to avoid having the tank get 1-shot.

With this hybrid utility in existence the question then becomes this: What utility can pures be given to balance this out?

The answer from Bioware seems to have been Bloodthirst and Ballistic Shield. They also seem to be balancing Marauders/Snipers to be on the higher end of the DPS spectrum. This seems pretty fair. A quick peek at top Sorc/Merc/Hybrid parses show that the gap isn't very large and in actual encounters with movement and up-time taken into consideration all classes can be very competitive. There doesn't need to be a "hybrid tax" that means pures will ALWAYS be higher DPS but there does need to be special care taken to ensure that pure DPS classes are never on the LOWER end of the DPS spectrum because DPS is the only role they can perform and having them be one of the worst classes at their only role would make the completely useless in every way. A certain other MMO that dropped their 5% hybrid tax policy still follows this general trend of not letting pure DPS classes fall below the middle of the pack. Even when I played this other MMO as a certain hybrid plate tank/dps/heal class I felt that a system that kept pure DPS classes from being one of the worst at their only role was fair.
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