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"All DPS specs have the same target" same with Healing & Tanking

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
"All DPS specs have the same target" same with Healing & Tanking

Niil's Avatar


Niil
05.06.2012 , 02:49 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by kiwoo View Post
The "Hybrid" classes have to be balanced less than pure DPS ACs as their utility has to be taken into consideration.

Otherwise there will be NO reason to have pure DPS classes in the game.

I asked this question in another post, surprisingly no-one answered.

If all ACs when specced into DPS can do the same level of damage, Why take pure DPS classes to an Ops/HM if a hybrid healer can do as much damage and still have the utility of heals. cures and shields when needed?

Thats why the utility of hybrids has to be factored into the equation when balancing.

My sage is balance specced and can still throw out 5k+ heals.

Otherwise to balance hybrid classes to do the same damage as pure DPS classes, then the pure DPS classes need a viable utility outside of pure damage to compare.
The answer to that is very simple. The time it takes to throw those dispels and heals around is going to reduce damage done. Thus, the more someone does secondary functions, the less dps they do. You're pretending they do the same damage AND also heal and dispel when that's absolutely not the truth.

gattiman's Avatar


gattiman
05.06.2012 , 02:53 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Niil View Post
The answer to that is very simple. The time it takes to throw those dispels and heals around is going to reduce damage done. Thus, the more someone does secondary functions, the less dps they do. You're pretending they do the same damage AND also heal and dispel when that's absolutely not the truth.
Incorrect. There should be a price to be paid by being a hybrid with two sets of strong abilities. Having huge options should come at a price as compared to a pure dps that can only dps.

Niil's Avatar


Niil
05.06.2012 , 03:09 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by gattiman View Post
Incorrect. There should be a price to be paid by being a hybrid with two sets of strong abilities. Having huge options should come at a price as compared to a pure dps that can only dps.
Incorrect isn't the appropriate response here. You're not stating a fact, you're stating an opinion. One that is not shared by Swtor developers as is clearly indicated in the Q&A. I respect that you have that opinion, feel free to disagree, but my actual experience playing mmo's over the past 14+ years shows the value of hybrids is actually very low when it comes to progression raiding, people don't want someone that can do 90% of the damage a dps can do and 90% of the healing, in either a dps or a healer spot. Support classes have prettymuch gone away in all modern mmo's. What we have left is a bunch of specs that have heals that aren't useful unless spec'd into, and even if they do use unspec'd heals they're going to suffer in the damage department.

Noctari's Avatar


Noctari
05.06.2012 , 03:11 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by gattiman View Post
Incorrect. There should be a price to be paid by being a hybrid with two sets of strong abilities. Having huge options should come at a price as compared to a pure dps that can only dps.
so a hybrid who takes 2 button pushed (2 GCDs) to do 2k dmg and 2k heals should not be equal to the DPS class who can take 2 button pushes (2 GCDs) to do 2k dmg and another 2k dmg...


right...


*cough*

Kallti's Avatar


Kallti
05.06.2012 , 05:44 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by kiwoo View Post
If all ACs when specced into DPS can do the same level of damage, Why take pure DPS classes to an Ops/HM if a hybrid healer can do as much damage and still have the utility of heals. cures and shields when needed?
If a DPS AC decides to throw out some heals, then that will severely affect their DPS and most likely piss off the healers because it throws triage out the window so your "question" has a completely false statement in it and is therefore invalid.

There is no such thing as a "Hybrid" class. You can have a hybrid spec but I certainly would not bring a hybrid spec to a raid, I would much rather have a fully spec'd healer and a fully spec'd DPS and have them concentrate on their job and do it properly.

The reason you have classes with three DPS specs is usually because each spec tree has it's niche sub-role, like a PvP spec, AOE spec, single target spec, utility spec etc, etc. This is the way almost every MMO is made these days. Just because some classes have their PvP or AOE spec replaced with a tank or a heal spec does in no way mean they should do less DPS when spec'd as such.

gattiman's Avatar


gattiman
05.06.2012 , 06:21 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Noctari View Post
so a hybrid who takes 2 button pushed (2 GCDs) to do 2k dmg and 2k heals should not be equal to the DPS class who can take 2 button pushes (2 GCDs) to do 2k dmg and another 2k dmg...


right...


*cough*
Exactly. All things being equal a healer should be stronger than a hybrid healer and a dps should do more dps than a hybrid dps. The ability to fill two rolls at a whim should come at a price. Bioware obviously agrees look at mercs. We can dps and throw out paultry heals or heal and throw out paultry dps but never do both strongly.

Seravis's Avatar


Seravis
05.06.2012 , 07:06 PM | #17
It is impossible to balance the game by just giving everyone equal dps on x target. DPS should NOT be equal as many classes sacrifice utuility/defense/burst for higher DPS. Here is are SOME of the discrepancies between classes.

PVP-

1. Some damage specs are fully mitigated by armor or shields, but other damage specs are not. When it comes to killing a tank in PVP. See Pyrotech > MM Snipers

2. Some classes have much higher defense then others. See Tanksin > Operative.

3. Some classes have much higher utility(Pull/Taunt/Gaurd/etc). See Tanksins > Marauders.

3. Some classes are much easier to interrupt their damage. See Powertechs > Troopers.

4. Some classes are based around having burst damage instead of constant dps. See Sniper > Sorcerer

PVE-

1. Some classes are ranged and don't have to deal with most bosses aoe. See Trooper > Operative.

2. Some class can reliably offheal/offtank at key points in fights. See Sorcerer/Juggernaut > Sniper/Marauder.


If you give everyone the same damage then the only classes that will be viable will be the ones with high defense + utility + ranged as well. What would be the point of bringing an Operative over a Tanksin given equal damage?

Balance is about far more then just equal dps. Every class should have their strengths and weaknesses, and some classes doing more dps then others is a VERY viable strength/weakness.

Niil's Avatar


Niil
05.06.2012 , 07:21 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Seravis View Post
It is impossible to balance the game by just giving everyone equal dps on x target. DPS should NOT be equal as many classes sacrifice utuility/defense/burst for higher DPS. Here is are SOME of the discrepancies between classes.

PVP-

1. Some damage specs are fully mitigated by armor or shields, but other damage specs are not. When it comes to killing a tank in PVP. See Pyrotech > MM Snipers

2. Some classes have much higher defense then others. See Tanksin > Operative.

3. Some classes have much higher utility(Pull/Taunt/Gaurd/etc). See Tanksins > Marauders.

3. Some classes are much easier to interrupt their damage. See Powertechs > Troopers.

4. Some classes are based around having burst damage instead of constant dps. See Sniper > Sorcerer

PVE-

1. Some classes are ranged and don't have to deal with most bosses aoe. See Trooper > Operative.

2. Some class can reliably offheal/offtank at key points in fights. See Sorcerer/Juggernaut > Sniper/Marauder.


If you give everyone the same damage then the only classes that will be viable will be the ones with high defense + utility + ranged as well. What would be the point of bringing an Operative over a Tanksin given equal damage?

Balance is about far more then just equal dps. Every class should have their strengths and weaknesses, and some classes doing more dps then others is a VERY viable strength/weakness.
It's a design philosophy. You can cite all the examples of perceived class imbalance all you want, it doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day each class has a primary function they have to accomplish. The goal is not to have 10 classes that all dps at various levels because every one past the first is superfluous. The goal is to balance the remaining facets while trying to keep the role function at even levels. Differences in mobility, defenses, utility, fluff, and playstyle will differentiate the classes. Those things, inherently, are going to impact damage situationally anyways. You may see dps classes with different damage output levels as a viable way to balance them, I see that as a cop out so that developers don't have to do the hard job of balancing classes overall, to put it simply it's a demonstration of poor design.

Vid-szhite's Avatar


Vid-szhite
05.06.2012 , 08:24 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Sulvan View Post
Problem that someone else pointed out with a dps class is heavy does more damage than medium and medium does more damage then light. The dps needs to be switched around.
Not true. The Medium and Light classes have better defense cooldowns and damage reduction to AoE talents to make up the difference, and often end up having MORE survivability than heavy classes in the right hands, while also having the same DPS. Just look at Marauder cooldowns - some are better than tank cooldowns and are available twice as often. The reason people claim Marauders are OP isn't DPS, it's survivability, but the Juggernaut on the flipside is considered balanced because while they do have heavy armor, skill with cooldown use can be more effective.

Marb's Avatar


Marb
05.06.2012 , 08:42 PM | #20
There are no hybrids in this game. If you are specialised into a dps talent tree you are a pure dps. Though the disparity between some dps trees seems contrary to biowares design philosophy...
Harbinger