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ლ(ಠ益ಠლ y u no fix jugg/guardian dps survivability?!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ y u no fix jugg/guardian dps survivability?!

vaelphor's Avatar


vaelphor
02.19.2012 , 05:50 PM | #1
So awhile back, I remember reading a post where Goerg Zoeller had this to say about the Juggernaut and Guardian advanced classes: http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...43#edit1435443

Quote:
Mobility/Anti Kiting (PvP) We agree with the sentiment voiced by the community that some Guardians and Juggernauts have to work harder than other classes to stay within effective combat range, putting them at a disadvantage. We intend to address this in an upcoming patch where, as a first step, Force Push will clear the cooldown of Force Leap, granting for more reliable in combat pursuit capabilities to the Advanced Class. Further changes will be made if necessary.
Their solution was to have Force Push reset the CD on Force Charge/Force Leap in patch 1.1.0 which was 3 patches ago (9 with small patches and hotfixes).

This was definitely a welcomed change and helped with some mobility issues, however it's still possible and rather easy for enemies to stun & run, kite, or out-range the Force Push, especially if nothing is around to burn it on just to reset the Force Charge/Force Leap cooldown. Properly timing defensive CD's and using Chilling Scream/Freezing Force helps a bit if used right though.

Since then, the upcoming patch notes have yet to address the second half of Goerg Zoeller's post regarding Jugg/Guardian DPS survivability:


Quote:
DPS spec survivability (PvP and PvE) The DPS specs on Guardian and Juggernaut are performing to our expectations when it comes to the ability to create damage, especially of the burst variety. However their survivability is lagging behind our expectations, especially in the later game, and we are going to start addressing that particular issue in an upcoming patch.
For those who are unaware, if a Jugg/Guardian specs and gears their character properly, they can actually do some decent damage, and yet it still feels lackluster compared to many other classes.

My guild has even tested this during the Infernal Council fight in Eternity vault.
Spoiler
100-380 might not seem like a lot, but it's huge when the average DPS is only ~1,300 (this average includes our Jugg DPS as well). So comparatively to other classes, we still don't do as much DPS as other classes.

Now, the problem is that our survivability isn't great... it's good if you spec into the tanking tree for Invincible/Warding Call, but then you'll have to skip key damaging abilities/talents in the DPS trees.

So with damage being slightly behind many other classes, and with survivability being poor unless specced 11-14 points into the tanking tree which also lowers our damage, this issue still needs to be addressed.

In the Jugg/Guardian class forums, there are already several suggestion threads made by the community regarding this issue, so I won't get into suggested fixes in this post.

TLDR: Either buff our damage and leave survivability in it's current state, or give DPS specs the survivability they need to be able to last long enough with our current damage.
Sxes
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BrotherJohn's Avatar


BrotherJohn
02.19.2012 , 06:02 PM | #2
to be honest screw jugg needing a buff they are already powerfully over powered for a tank how about mara having those same fixes to help with the damn kiting issue

vaelphor's Avatar


vaelphor
02.19.2012 , 06:35 PM | #3
hmm not talking about tank survivability and how powerful they are because, yes, they are in a good place.

...the issue is regarding DPS survivability.

our marauders tear through people like paper in PvP, and I always have trouble against great marauders even being a decked out battlemaster with rakata mods in all of my gear. this is because their high dps can support their current survivability; how novel for them!

as for kiting, I'm not saying it should be impossible for Sith Warrior/Jedi Knights to be kited. It definitely should be possible because if we stick on someone like glue, they'll probably end up dying. Ranged classes need a good 4-8 seconds of being able to kite a melee because once you're on them, you can mess 'em up!

in the case of marauders, you have a snare, slows, and stealth that you can take advantage of to avoid being kited, but it's still going to happen. I get kited often on my Jugg, but once force charge CD is back up, I'm usually fine which is why my complaints are mostly regarding survivability in relation to current dps (something your advanced class shouldn't have issues with).
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Xirrok's Avatar


Xirrok
02.19.2012 , 07:49 PM | #4
Your out of your mind,

Quote:
to be honest screw jugg needing a buff they are already powerfully over powered for a tank how about mara having those same fixes to help with the damn kiting issue
We won't even go into TPS, as a BH put it, "you want TPS, rerole." on average my NON-CRIT attacks are only 600-800 most of his are for 800-1000. You do the math.

Juggs are a TANK, DPS is sec. IMO that is, but as far as survivability we have nothing. Our t2 gear has surge rating,.... really. that helps a tank survive, right. By far Jaggs have the lowest amount of HP and survivability. We (if you even play a Jugg) have to rely on a proc, to get 2, THAT IS TWO of our abilities to keep us alive.

JUGGS need all the help we can get.

blacksarevok's Avatar


blacksarevok
02.19.2012 , 08:45 PM | #5
Somewhat related:

It would great if the devs would BUFF MASTER STRIKE/RAVAGE so that we can actually use it in our rotation as Vigilance/Vengeance. Right now it's weaker than Blade Storm, Plasma Brand, AND Overhead Slash (+ Sith counterparts), and since we generate a full bar of Focus/Rage just as those 3 focus/rage consumers come off CD, Master Strike/Ravage rarely ever gets used. *Maybe* like once every minute, when we use Combat Focus/Sith equivalent.

I'm sorry, but that seems really stupid to me considering the talents in the tree would have us believe Master Strike and Ravage should be our cornerstone abilities. It's so bad that we aren't even supposed to put points in the talents related to MS/Rav.

If they made Master Strike/Ravage stronger via talents or whatever for Vigilance and Vengeance, it would kill 2 birds with one stone.

vaelphor's Avatar


vaelphor
02.20.2012 , 04:23 AM | #6
There are a few things to increase jugg dps and/or survivability:

1. increase the damage of the dots applied through talented Force Scream (Draining Scream) and/or Impale (Eviscerate).

2. remove the deadzone for Saber Throw allowing it to be from 0-30 meter range instead of 10-30. this would allow it to be another 30s CD filler while sitting on someone.

3. remove the channel on force choke entirely for all specs, but remove the damage & rage generation done by force choke since you'll be able to beat on them while they are choked for 3 seconds.

4. increase damage reduction through talents:
- Vengeance tree (Deafening Defense: Reduces all damage taken by [4 / 8]%. Additionally reduces the cooldown of Intimidating Roar by [7.5 seconds / 15 seconds].
- Rage tree (Dark Resonance: Increases the critical strike damage of all Force attacks by [10 / 20 / 30]%, and reduces all damage taken by [2 / 4 / 6 ]%). (the damage reduction difference between the trees would be due to the increased damage that rage can put out)

5. increase damage reduction through forms/stances (6% reduced damage while in shien/shi-cho form)

there are several little helpful suggestions, and these were honestly just some ideas i pulled out of my butt over the past 10 minutes.
Sxes
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gwrtheyn's Avatar


gwrtheyn
02.20.2012 , 04:23 AM | #7
Sith Warrior/Jedi Knights are realy easy to kite get out of 5 ft range,but not over 14ft,no charge,slow em as much as you can,if they ever reach you,kb or stun or root etc,they never get you.

vaelphor's Avatar


vaelphor
02.20.2012 , 04:27 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by gwrtheyn View Post
Sith Warrior/Jedi Knights are realy easy to kite get out of 5 ft range,but not over 14ft,no charge,slow em as much as you can,if they ever reach you,kb or stun or root etc,they never get you.
yeah, an operative guildy i was dueling did exactly what you mentioned, and i honestly couldn't do much to him whatsoever because he was just out of my range for everything as vengeance spec. maybe with obliterate it wouldn't be so bad, but even with the hop, you still land where the person was when you hit it, so if they were in motion, it wouldn't matter cuz you'd get nowhere... i don't see a reason why force charge or saber throw have deadzones in the first place.

i was able to catch him a few times when i juked the opposite direction he was kiting to get 10 meters on him to charge, choke, and slow which helped until he stunned/rooted me with something that basically reset my efforts.
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gwrtheyn's Avatar


gwrtheyn
02.20.2012 , 04:47 AM | #9
obliterate will not work since you jump on the enemy pos you use it,so you are again 5+ ft away.
Edit as jugg: aoe slow(hope he does not slow),kb+charge,purge his cc instant,but chances to get kited are high,without cds you will not get a decent player

Edit2: Ravage does not helps at all,a self root style(even if enemy dies etc it roots you still 2sec),why can we not use it on the run....

Semitote's Avatar


Semitote
02.20.2012 , 10:34 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by vaelphor View Post
2. remove the deadzone for Saber Throw allowing it to be from 0-30 meter range instead of 10-30. this would allow it to be another 30s CD filler while sitting on someone.
This is the four-piece PvE set bonus, but the four-piece PvP set bonus is way better. The one thing I notice about Rage spec is it is the worst for generating rage (go figure). An extra rage generating ability like Saber Throw from point-blank (with the talent that stacks two sunders as well) would be nice, but I'm not sure it's necessary and may be too powerful when it comes to bursting down an enemy after a Smash (as Rage).
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