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Theorycrafting Assumptions


Aelanis's Avatar


Aelanis
12.24.2014 , 10:55 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by TACeMossie View Post
I normally go the really lazy way and just say "Heres you're mainstat, now increment power/crit by values of 1!", but you did it on a per mod basis so I did it that way.
So, uh, I may have made a very serious typo that might be the cause of Deception doing so much damage. I said Saber Strike goes to roughly 0 in the Execute and Voltaic stays the same. Well, Voltaic actually goes to roughly 3/4 of what it used to, and Saber Strike does roughly the same. Big difference. Hopefully that puts it more in line with reality.
Dulfy Guides: Hatred, Serenity, Darkness, Kinetic Combat
Ellendra - Death MarkExit Area - Theraton
The Shadowlands

fire-breath's Avatar


fire-breath
12.24.2014 , 11:06 AM | #52
Well I know squat of coding so I wouldn't be able to tell if thats to hard to do. I'll trust the expertise of you guys on that one.
Just a note to not get misunderstood. The problem I had was not so much how much damage was done by a spec. The point I wanted to make was that the critrating will be (slightly) to high in serenities case. In most bossfights you will see relativly less serenity, spinning and double strikes which are making use of the 30% surge bonus. The more DoT ticks a parse has, the fewer amount of crit is needed.
If its to hard to code than just ignore this idea but if the difference is noticeable a note of it might be a wise thing.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aelanis View Post
As for the relics, there are actually generally accepted values for uptime. Instead of using those, I literally took the uptime off of StarParse, which calculates buff uptime for you. Relics are already accounted for properly
I know that those are accepted values for uptime. I'm just saying that its not doable to predict when/which attacks will get buffed. In the worst case it will proc while you are doing 1 or 2 saberstrikes instead of 2 spinning strikes. Thats quite a big difference. I am aware there isn't a better way of theorising it into a model/simulation.

Same discussion point about alacrity. Are you taking the whole alacrity into account or are you taking a factor of it? I am currently using a 50% (average), 60% (Skilled) and 75% (Very Skilled) factor for it since I don't believe anyone can make use of the full 100% boost during any bossfight (exept fights like maybe the 1st bosses in DF/DP/Rav/ToS)
Progression raiding toons on the big RED
Macewindy - Sab Slinger since patch 1.2 through ups and downs
PugsloveHP - the 96k HP commando DPS/healer
(4.0 HP, currently updating it to 5.0)

Aelanis's Avatar


Aelanis
12.24.2014 , 12:29 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by fire-breath View Post
Well I know squat of coding so I wouldn't be able to tell if thats to hard to do. I'll trust the expertise of you guys on that one.
Just a note to not get misunderstood. The problem I had was not so much how much damage was done by a spec. The point I wanted to make was that the critrating will be (slightly) to high in serenities case. In most bossfights you will see relativly less serenity, spinning and double strikes which are making use of the 30% surge bonus. The more DoT ticks a parse has, the fewer amount of crit is needed.
If its to hard to code than just ignore this idea but if the difference is noticeable a note of it might be a wise thing.



I know that those are accepted values for uptime. I'm just saying that its not doable to predict when/which attacks will get buffed. In the worst case it will proc while you are doing 1 or 2 saberstrikes instead of 2 spinning strikes. Thats quite a big difference. I am aware there isn't a better way of theorising it into a model/simulation.

Same discussion point about alacrity. Are you taking the whole alacrity into account or are you taking a factor of it? I am currently using a 50% (average), 60% (Skilled) and 75% (Very Skilled) factor for it since I don't believe anyone can make use of the full 100% boost during any bossfight (exept fights like maybe the 1st bosses in DF/DP/Rav/ToS)
You can safely assume full use of the alacrity boost. Otherwise, due to downtime, you'd have to assume incomplete use of every other stat in the game as well. Alacrity, if anything, is least affected by downtime, due to cooldown reductions. On top of this, there really is no reason to optimize for sub-standard levels of play. At the risk of sounding elitist, there's no point in assuming people are anything but near-perfect when playing the spec. What purpose would it serve to optimize for someone playing at less than full capacity, when they're only going to get better with more practice and instruction? It's just increasing the workload (and computation time, though it's typically a small amount of time anyway) for a very marginal benefit.

As for relics: there is literally no other way to do it. You'll see higher damage values if you get lucky (or are skilled) and lower damage values if you get unlucky (or don't game your relic procs for max value). Because of that, better players will achieve slightly higher numbers than our calculations will say, while less skilled players may not quite meet the values. Unfortunately, that's how time averages work: they don't account for people taking advantage of good situation. This means that our numbers may be marginally off for the absolute best players, but the chances of that are incredibly low, due to the very small increases we'll see over our calculated values (typically < 5% increases).
Dulfy Guides: Hatred, Serenity, Darkness, Kinetic Combat
Ellendra - Death MarkExit Area - Theraton
The Shadowlands

Aelanis's Avatar


Aelanis
12.24.2014 , 02:22 PM | #54
Well, I decided that any remaining discrepancies between my numbers and those of my calculations are due to me being somewhat better than the time-averaged robot playing the class, and have posted my final results. Most up to date version of my code is what follows (24/12/2014, 20:22 GMT):

Spoiler
Dulfy Guides: Hatred, Serenity, Darkness, Kinetic Combat
Ellendra - Death MarkExit Area - Theraton
The Shadowlands

fire-breath's Avatar


fire-breath
12.29.2014 , 04:59 AM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by Aelanis View Post
So it seems as if the Melee boost buff is additive, the Force boost buff is additive, the Internal boost is multiplicative and the AoE boost is also multiplicative. If anyone would like to confirm or deny these, let me know, as it would be nice to be doing this correctly and provide good data.
I know this isn't the sniperforum but these buffs should work the same in all cases. Else it would be weird. Anyways I did some testing on my sniper with dots.

Plasma probe
- no buffs active = 492 per hit (4918 tooltip)
- overwhelmed active = 541 per hit (10% increase from tooltip damage)
- module with all buffs on the dummy = 600 per hit (22% increase from tooltip)
This 22% consists of 10% AoE + 7% elemental + 5% tech. If the tech (or its force mirror) and elemental/internal.

This means either tech/force, internal/elemental and AoE are all multiplicative or all additive. Unless I am mistaken force/tech was assumed to be additive right?
Else it would be 492*1.05*(1+0.10+0.07)= 604.
Sry if i'm messing up stuff. Just want to be sure about it.
Progression raiding toons on the big RED
Macewindy - Sab Slinger since patch 1.2 through ups and downs
PugsloveHP - the 96k HP commando DPS/healer
(4.0 HP, currently updating it to 5.0)

Aelanis's Avatar


Aelanis
12.29.2014 , 09:22 AM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by fire-breath View Post
I know this isn't the sniperforum but these buffs should work the same in all cases. Else it would be weird. Anyways I did some testing on my sniper with dots.

Plasma probe
- no buffs active = 492 per hit (4918 tooltip)
- overwhelmed active = 541 per hit (10% increase from tooltip damage)
- module with all buffs on the dummy = 600 per hit (22% increase from tooltip)
This 22% consists of 10% AoE + 7% elemental + 5% tech. If the tech (or its force mirror) and elemental/internal.

This means either tech/force, internal/elemental and AoE are all multiplicative or all additive. Unless I am mistaken force/tech was assumed to be additive right?
Else it would be 492*1.05*(1+0.10+0.07)= 604.
Sry if i'm messing up stuff. Just want to be sure about it.
If only one of those was additive and the others were all multiplicative, they'd all multiply anyway. Regardless, I'm not sure how they intend for these buffs to work, since it's terribly confusing trying to keep it sorted, especially if the buffs work differently on different abilities. I guess I didn't test the AoE one carefully, but the I/E one was multiplicative when I did it.
Dulfy Guides: Hatred, Serenity, Darkness, Kinetic Combat
Ellendra - Death MarkExit Area - Theraton
The Shadowlands

deaday's Avatar


deaday
12.29.2014 , 11:28 AM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by fire-breath View Post
I know this isn't the sniperforum but these buffs should work the same in all cases. Else it would be weird. Anyways I did some testing on my sniper with dots.

Plasma probe
- no buffs active = 492 per hit (4918 tooltip)
- overwhelmed active = 541 per hit (10% increase from tooltip damage)
- module with all buffs on the dummy = 600 per hit (22% increase from tooltip)
This 22% consists of 10% AoE + 7% elemental + 5% tech. If the tech (or its force mirror) and elemental/internal.

This means either tech/force, internal/elemental and AoE are all multiplicative or all additive. Unless I am mistaken force/tech was assumed to be additive right?
Else it would be 492*1.05*(1+0.10+0.07)= 604.
Sry if i'm messing up stuff. Just want to be sure about it.
Very interesting findings. Frankly, this has left me baffled.
Here's how I originally concluded that Overwhelmed (10% AoE) was multiplicative while Vulnerable (5% Force) was additive:
- basic Force Storm tick: 879
- with Vulnerable: 923 (879*1.05)
- with Overwhelmed: 967 (879*1.1)
- with Vulnerable + Overwhelmed: 1015 (879*1.05*1.1)
- with Tempest Mastery: 1099 (879*1.25)
- with Tempest Mastery + Vulnerable: 1143 (879*(1+0.25+0.05))
- with Tempest Mastery + Overwhelmed: 1209 (879*1.25*1.1)
- with Tempest Mastery + Vulnerable + Overwhelmed: 1257 (879*(1+0.25+0.5)*1.1)

For reference: these numbers are on an Ops dummy with bonus damage of 1440.9.
The last example very clearly shows that in this case the 25% of Tempest Mastery and the 5% of Vulnerable were combined additively.

Considering this is Bioware we're talking about :P, I wouldn't be shocked to learn that the mechanics of certain buffs differed from class to class, or even from ability to ability.

ceazare's Avatar


ceazare
12.29.2014 , 11:38 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by deaday View Post
Considering this is Bioware we're talking about :P, I wouldn't be shocked to learn that the mechanics of certain buffs differed from class to class, or even from ability to ability.
It's not making much sense so far, I find buffs stack for forcequake the way you describe, including set bonus it's

(2% Force Master + Force 5% + 25% utility) * 10% Overwhelemed

but for TK Wave it's

(Overwhelmed 10% + Force 5%) * 2% Force Master set bonus.

Both abilities are aoe, both are energy damage (probably a bug, both should be kinetic, but that shouldn't make any difference anywhere). The only difference is that one is a channel while the other isn't

I'm planning to open a thread on this topic in class forums once I'm done with sage abilities.
Pelara <Titans>
The Red Eclipse

deaday's Avatar


deaday
12.29.2014 , 11:49 AM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by ceazare View Post
It's not making much sense so far, I find buffs stack for forcequake the way you describe, including set bonus it's

(2% Force Master + Force 5% + 25% utility) * 10% Overwhelemed

but for TK Wave it's

(Overwhelmed 10% + Force 5%) * 2% Force Master set bonus.

Both abilities are aoe, both are energy damage (probably a bug, both should be kinetic, but that shouldn't make any difference anywhere). The only difference is that one is a channel while the other isn't

I'm planning to open a thread on this topic in class forums once I'm done with sage abilities.
Oh wow. That's amazing (in an ironic way). Thanks for doing the Sage testing.
This is surely going to make spreadsheets more complicated

BTW the Sorc equivalents (Force Storm and Chain Lightning) also both deal energy damage, but their tooltips do say energy. So the bug is most likely in the Sage tooltips I guess.

EDIT: though thematically, I could see kinetic damage making more sense. In which case the damage type could be fixed. Doesn't really matter anyway because both damage types are mitigated by the same damage reduction values.