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Tank (im)balance


Foyle's Avatar


Foyle
09.06.2019 , 08:11 AM | #11
On top of all that has been mentioned, Shadows/Assassins have a new set bonus (Deflecting Slashes) that reduces cooldown of taunts. Something that was taken for granted by all tank classes for the last few years is now sin-only.

Prog's Avatar


Prog
09.10.2019 , 04:24 AM | #12
Also I've tested Hotswap utility in many situations and it doesn't really feel sufficient. Quick examples from Hammer Station:
  • On boss #1 (sorry I am bad with names) you often get this beam and when stacks are high and hitpoints are low, you find yourself wondering what else is there to use. You see translocate, you equip Hotswap tactical item, you guard your groupie, you Translocate him to make him take stacks for 6 seconds with increased DR, but that does not happen...channeled abilities don't seem to react to this. I understand that they are designed in such a way - for such channels I should have my groupie translocated for the moment boss starts his cast, but then he will keep having that beam for the full channel time, not just for the time he has DR provided from Hotswap. To make it more beneficial for players, you can make it work like Force Cloak on sin - being Translocated makes you un-targetable and breaks all channels/casts on you. Not sure how OP is that and if you are willing to provide PT with such a boost, but the way it exists now is counter intuitive.
  • Another problem, the aggro. You can't really make a taunt there because taunt in PvP also means reduced damage dealt to all players except the taunter. But if lets say I am a tank and I've engaged a group of adds. I made sure no Ion Gas dot is ticking there, no damage from me exists atm, hence no threat, but I still retain aggro for the moment I cast translocate. I cast Translocate on a guarded target and that target will hold aggro for a split milisecond, after that all adds will swap to the 2nd target on the threat table - most likely dps who is attacking them the most - who does not have 30% dr from Hotswap! If Hotswap is designed for somebody else to tank for 6s, it should provide HUGE threat boost for these 6 seconds of increased DR, not just same DR that Translocate caster had.
  • And one more. After 6 seconds Translocated players are being swapped back, It is always very unexpected. What if there is some impossible to miss graphical representation of it? For example the orange/blue glow becoming stronger every second? This way players will memorize the brightness of the glow at 6th second and can predict when they get translocated back.

A little bit more on my vision on how to put PT in line with sin and even jugg in spike tolerance.

Some kind of anti-spike cooldown should be added and it is better to be tied too one of the already existing abilities. Now there are two questions to discuss:
1. In what way will the spike get countered?
There are many methods. Bullet proof one is like Force Speed - absorb %% of damage taken for a very short time. But it will be boring to repeat same on different classes, I would love to see other tank classes being in line with Assassin without being same as Assassin.
Another option - provide defense/resist chance. Everything below 50% defense/resist chance doesn't feel sufficient to provide an anti-spike tool, everything above is OP and doesn't really fit the lore setting of powertech. Defense is for guardian - he can parry everything with his light saber. Resist is for shadow - a stoic consular who can ignore tech/force factors of the reality for a short period. Powertech is a tech guy (and is supposed to have power, coming from name Kappa yes I know this pun is horrible). High defense/resist doesn't align with his style.
Just splat DR bonus - he already has Energy Shield for that. Active self healing? Guardian with Enure and Focused Defense sort of covered it, plus it is going to require a whole new ability for Powertech which is unwanted, I believe.
Shield is what really comes along. It is called Shield Tech or Shield Specialist. But Shield has a chance to proc. Making it a guaranteed proc is what will work.
I have suggested +50% Shield Chance before assuming that with stats players will reach 50% on their own. It does feel awkward and I don't like it myself. What if instead the mitigation method for PT will provide a guaranteed 100% Shield Chance for the upcoming series of attacks? Either number of stacks that get consumed on taking damage (will be weak against multiple targets) or the buff lasts for a couple of seconds.
This guaranteed attack shielding won't work against internal/elemental damage, but PT is already weakest at it. What if it remains as a class feature? I/E damage should be coming to group mostly, not tk tanks, so it makes PT weaker, but in a solvable manner. To prevent offending PT tanks with such I/E weakness, you may as well make them slightly better at K/E DR - like reaching more than sin or jugg on K/E non-rng potential.
2. What ability should that be?
Best if it is off-GCD ability. Generic options are: Shoulder Cannon, Heat Blast, Hydraulics Override. More sophisticated ones: Vent Heat and Thermal Sensor Override. Useless ones, because they are a DCD already: Energy Shield, Kolto Overload, Explosive Fuel, Power Yield, Oil Slick.
So generic ones involve one that doesn't quite fit - Hydraulics Override, assigning it here will draw a way too noticable parallel to the Force Speed.
Heat Blast has quite short CD and pairing Shield buff with Absorption buff is way too OP. Thats why I've suggested reworking it towards Shield. But still it feels op if turned into guaranteed Shield - because too often. And if you nerf it to prevent being OP, it won't actually save from spikes.
Shoulder Cannon feels very nice, hence I've been suggesting it and I still think it is the best. With current average DR as 53.47% and approximate absorbtion rating being 60% (considering 45% base and average Heat Blast gain which is roughly 15.125%), a 100% Shield Chance from each Shoulder Missile used will grant:
53.47 * (1 + 0.6 * 4 * 1 / 90) = 54.89 average DR if buff duration is 1 second
53.47 * (1 + 0.6 * 4 * 2 / 90) = 56.32 .. 2 seconds
53.47 * (1 + 0.6 * 4 * 2.5 / 90) = 57.03 .. 2.5 seconds
53.47 * (1 + 0.6 * 4 * 3 / 90) = 57.75 .. 3 seconds
And so on. This ccalculation isn't quite accurate due to Shoulder Cannon taking time to charge up. Additionally, the actual usage happens in sync with environment;s heavy damage attacks, so 90s cooldown is unlikely to ever happen and average DR potential is in fact lower.
There is also another on-GCD option which is weird, but you may like it. Harpoon. It comes along with Holotraverse. One can use it when he is Holotraversed, thus far enough from a target. You can also use it in advance most of the time, so being on GCD doesn't hurt. An approach that gives 100% shield with multiple stacks that drop per attack is better for it rather than buff with a short duration, because there is travel time of target to you or you to the target. It may also be abused in 2 boss fights - I am tanking one, but Harpoon another that stands far. Doesn't really come along with reality setting. But still, an idea to consider
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Marb's Avatar


Marb
09.10.2019 , 11:20 PM | #13
Interesting discussion, this is my dribble to keep this bumped:

Spike damage is usually meant to be a "tank-buster" type effect to put healers and their resource pools under pressure. I think all tank classes should be able to avoid these kinds of attacks equally, or they should all be equally vulnerable to them.

I'm not speaking from firsthand experience, as I only ever played PT tank and Jugg through launch until 4.0. Historically, assassins were often considered the most vulnerable to spike damage, so it's funny to see how things have changed over time.

xSssoulx's Avatar


xSssoulx
09.12.2019 , 03:25 PM | #14
Posted this a while back in some other topic about set bonus/tactical feedback
Tacticals

Juggernaut
Leviathanís Hide tactical
Crushing blow generates stacks of crushing defense for every enemy it hits, granting 2.5% increased damage reduction per stack for 10 seconds. Stacks up to 8 times
Crushing blow 12s cooldown
Can be used 5 times during a minute

Assassins
Ancient Tome of Wrath tactical
Wither generates Redirected wrath stacks for every enemy it hits, increasing your damage reduction per stack for 10 seconds (its 2.5% per does not include the value)
Wither 10s cooldown
Can be used 6 times a minute and stacking on top of previous stacks if executed correctly
It actually last half second longer cause if you spam wither while it comes of cooldown you will build up on top of the old stacks

Powertechs
Oil Fire tactical
Oil slick makes targets succeptible (typo on PTS?) to firestorm. For each enemy affected by oil slick hit with firestorm, your damage reduction is increased by 2% and cooldown of oil slick is reduced by 1.5 seconds
Oil Slick 1min cooldown Firestorm 18seconds cooldown
Can be used 1 time during a minute or if RNG resets your firestorm at right time you can used twice in a row

Also i would like to add, 2% on fire storm is not flat addition to your damage redaction % as the other two tanks get but instead it is to your armor rating so hitting 3 targets would grant you .60% damage reduction

Bonus question @eric once we are done testing/giving feedback on loot acquisition what is next, will there be balance tests so maybe we can bring 3tanks classes/specs into the same ball park and that damage and healers are comparabel with ech other and there are no huge outliers

Benirons's Avatar


Benirons
09.12.2019 , 08:34 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by xSssoulx View Post
Posted this a while back in some other topic about set bonus/tactical feedback
Tacticals

Juggernaut
Leviathanís Hide tactical
Crushing blow generates stacks of crushing defense for every enemy it hits, granting 2.5% increased damage reduction per stack for 10 seconds. Stacks up to 8 times
Crushing blow 12s cooldown
Can be used 5 times during a minute

Assassins
Ancient Tome of Wrath tactical
Wither generates Redirected wrath stacks for every enemy it hits, increasing your damage reduction per stack for 10 seconds (its 2.5% per does not include the value)
Wither 10s cooldown
Can be used 6 times a minute and stacking on top of previous stacks if executed correctly
It actually last half second longer cause if you spam wither while it comes of cooldown you will build up on top of the old stacks

Powertechs
Oil Fire tactical
Oil slick makes targets succeptible (typo on PTS?) to firestorm. For each enemy affected by oil slick hit with firestorm, your damage reduction is increased by 2% and cooldown of oil slick is reduced by 1.5 seconds
Oil Slick 1min cooldown Firestorm 18seconds cooldown
Can be used 1 time during a minute or if RNG resets your firestorm at right time you can used twice in a row

Also i would like to add, 2% on fire storm is not flat addition to your damage redaction % as the other two tanks get but instead it is to your armor rating so hitting 3 targets would grant you .60% damage reduction

Bonus question @eric once we are done testing/giving feedback on loot acquisition what is next, will there be balance tests so maybe we can bring 3tanks classes/specs into the same ball park and that damage and healers are comparabel with ech other and there are no huge outliers
I cant even... just how dumb are these guys working on this stuff. Or maybe they just play assassins. Or they have boy/girlfriends who main sin tank. Like ***. This isn't even remotely balanced.

To take this further, crushing blow aoe is way smaller than wither. Hitting stuff with firestorm, don't even get me started. The amount of stupid is getting too much. Wake the hell up people.

GamingCrimes's Avatar


GamingCrimes
09.15.2019 , 05:26 AM | #16
A lot of this discussion has been about Tank mitigation, but I think we should also talk about the dps output of tanks.
I've been running Dxun HM a lot over the past weeks with my guild and we've been testing different tank classes. We came to the conclusion that for this instance in particular Assassin + Juggernaut Tank comps are equally as strong or sometimes even stronger than double Assassin. In terms of DtPS and Spike Mitigation Assassin Tanks always beat Juggernaut Tanks, but in terms of dps output Juggernauts make up for it. This is partly because of Saber Reflect and partly because of the new amplifiers. The hard hitting and AoE abilities of Juggernaut Tanks are all Weapon Damage (except Force Scream and Smash), whilst Assassin Tanks have a wider damage distribution on their attacks. If you are curious, we compiled a list of the damage distribution of the different classes here. I can't really speak for Powertech Tanks yet since we didn't test them that much.

From my experience tanks have enough mitigation anyway and we shouldn't just focus on dtps alone when comparing the tank classes with each other. Don't get me wrong though, the spike and overall mitigation of Assassin Tanks definitely is too strong and other tank classes should get something similar to Force Speed.
Boatank Myr'cella

Raidlead of <Flawless> @Tulak Hord

PSCHW's Avatar


PSCHW
09.19.2019 , 07:58 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Prog View Post
Sure, Juggernauts also have some spike-proof abilities like Saber Reflect, Endure Pain, Mad Dash, etc. but these are not sufficiently reliable! Blade Blitz involves relocation and is often impossible. Saber Reflect also doesn't help in all situations. Endure Pain is great, but it has a one minute cooldown, while Force Speed is 15 seconds and works on absolutely everything except scripted death.
I think the jugger could be pretty competitive if the mad dash would get a revision for tanking.
1. it should not effect the gcd similar as the force sprint. In many cases if you want to counter e.g. a cast of a mob with mad dash (e.g. the fire burn of this ossus wb) you have to guess when he will cast it to be free of gcd to react at the perfect time. And that really sucks in this fight.
2. the repostitioning of mad dash. Maybe in some cases one could handle this somehow with dashing and directly force charging again but in many bossfights this might be a blocking issue because the boss should stay at the same place.

Ecekiell's Avatar


Ecekiell
10.09.2019 , 01:34 PM | #18
So...they removed force speed as defensive. Like entirely.
In my opinion that's the worst thing you could have done. Nerf the % (hard) or give it a (slightly) longer cooldown but don't remove it.
The shadow needs this ability, every tank needs something like this.
Tanking is only fun, if you can actually do someting about the incoming damage. If you only have big 2-3min cds, you are just standing there doing nothing most of the time. That's just bad and boring.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
10.09.2019 , 01:42 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Ecekiell View Post
So...they removed force speed as defensive. Like entirely.
In my opinion that's the worst thing you could have done. Nerf the % (hard) or give it a (slightly) longer cooldown but don't remove it.
The shadow needs this ability, every tank needs something like this.
Tanking is only fun, if you can actually do someting about the incoming damage. If you only have big 2-3min cds, you are just standing there doing nothing most of the time. That's just bad and boring.
Did they do away with the 60% DR on FS utility? I admit I"m not the shadow tank I am guardian tank, but this is a big thing to shadows in general isn't it?

Ecekiell's Avatar


Ecekiell
10.09.2019 , 01:54 PM | #20
Yes, it's now 25% for dps specs and 0% for tanks.
I get that something needs to be done because this ability made shadows the best tanks by far.
But just give the 25% to the tank spec as well and give it to jugg and pt too.
There just needs to be something to do, and it should make a difference if you know what you are doing an know the boss abilitys and so on.