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Rotation for the Fury Marauder and the Rage Juggernaut (Scaeva)


salaciousc

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Does brooding have any use ?

 

Feels like it's pretty useless. I can use one stack of 30 for "free" without using my frenzy, but after that I don't need it anymore.

 

So my personal opinion is that a fury mara can live wihout brooding especially in PVP, right ?

 

Need some info here. testing it now, but so far.. I feel like not using it. The only benefit is reduced CD on intimidating roar.

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@DavidAtkinson

Bloodthirst is linked to Frenzy. If you use Frenzy (instead of Brooding) to start your rotation you will have to wait more than 2 minutes until you can activate Bloodthirst the first time. In PVP matches (arenas) this is a disadvantage.

You may pick a different perk, the rotation does not depend on Brooding.

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Unless things have changed (which admittedly they might've, been a while since i played much mara) you can't use raid buffs (including bloodthirst) in arenas, making Brooding a very mediocre pick for arenas since you just use frenzy for the first berserk Edited by AdjeYo
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Unless things have changed (which admittedly they might've, been a while since i played much mara) you can't use raid buffs (including bloodthirst) in arenas, making Brooding a very mediocre pick for arenas since you just use frenzy for the first berserk

 

No. you are correct..

 

You cannot use Bloodthirst in arenas only unranked which makes it indeed a mediocre pick..

 

The only benefit I get from it is the CD reduction of intimidating roar but I have to trade Bloodward or Ruthless Aggressor for which would be unwise to do. ;)

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@feclado

I was not aware that there could be any problems as I use a different browser with ublock origin.

I uploaded the (slightly modified) PDF-file to a different filehoster, hope that solves the problem.

 

 

Scaeva

Edited by salaciousc
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I parsed Carnage as comparison to Fury. At the test dummy the results for Carnage look weaker because of the weaker energy management. In raids there are additional ways to generate energy. In my opinion both specs are even.

 

https://document.li/QP6m

 

Scaeva

 

 

#Edit: The test dummy was hit 100 times by an Assault, that attack was activated only 25 times. The description in the PDF is not very clear in that point.

 

Please excuse the length, I haven't been able to post for most of 5.x but have kept up with the forums. This subject is of particular relevance for me.

 

I can't say I agree with your assessment of Carnage as compared to Fury. They are not equal, not by a long shot. BW has raped Carnage over and over since 5.0. Losing two attacks from the Ferocity window is a significant DPS loss and is the second DPS nerf they've received in the class balancing process [5.2/5.6] - Ultimately it comes down to simple math and math doesn't lie - http://parsely.io/parser/stats.

 

In 5.6, it was the devs stated goal to remove clipping. But they didn't do that, they took a short cut that ended up costing Carnage more dps than it should have with regard to what clipping added to it. It boggles the mind, but somehow the combat team [it's actually just one guy] didn''t have an understanding of how the spec actually worked. Clipping provided one extra attack to the spec, not two. Clipping got you one extra attack in the Berserk ferocity window [DST]. The non- berserk ferocity window did not require clipping in order to get three attacks into it, yet, BW took an attack from that ferocity window away despite the fact that that had been brought to their attention. They had no basis for doing so based on their own stated goal for the spec in 5.6.

 

What makes this all the more insulting is that they didn't even remove clipping. You can still clip into the Berserk Ferocity window. By placing stacks as the means by which the amount of attacks into the window are possible instead of what it has always been [time based. 4.5 than 3 seconds] and setting that at two attacks in the non-ferocity window it cost the specs two attacks instead of one, which is a big dps loss. Furthermore they made DST not one of the attacks that could be used inside the ferocity window. By assigning only some specific attacks that could be used inside the window they have placed greater limitations on how the ferocity window can be used. Using DST in the window was not just about the ability to clip it into the berserk window, it was also a strong attack to use inside the window when one considers that it has an AOE effect and was the only attack that could be used inside the window that had a 30 range, it also aided in resource management which Carnage suffers from in maintaining given the rage cost of Gore. This is less of an issue in PVE than in PVP where you are often rooted or slowed by ranged attackers with no means of reaching them when thier range exceeds 10' while they are free to light your *** up. Their reasons for not allowing DST to be used inside the ferocity window remain a mystery.

 

BW has a hard on for Carnage. It has been nerfed more than any other spec in the game throughout 5.x [in one manner or another]. - While Fury absolutely deserved a buff, it didn't have to come at the expense of Carnage. They took from Carnage and gave to Fury. Carnage had always been considered the 'quasi-burst' spec by BW, you can still find old official posts and references to that, due to it's burst being so conditional and that it wasn't front loaded [which is the hallmark of burst specs.] Carnage was the one with greater burst and sustain, now that's Fury. As of 5.6, I do believe that Fury has stronger burst now. Furthermore, given it's easy resource management, it's unparalleled mobility [extra leap/anti CC passives] and unconditional burst Fury is superior to Carnage in every single way. - It was wrong when it was the reverse and it was Fury that was eclipsed and it's wrong now that it's Carnage is eclipsed. Even when it was the reverse Fury always remained a stronger spec to play in PVP but was performed less so in PVE. Now Fury is better than Carnage in PVE and PVP as well.

There is no reason they couldn't have made it so all three specs are equally valuable just in different ways.

 

I can tell you as someone who has played Carnage for the last 5 years that this latest nerf is extremely obvious in it's effects [unlike 5.2 nerf with regard to PVP]. I did not notice much of a change in damage in PVP with 5.2, in 5.6 the difference is very obvious to me. It's generally agreed that burst is extremely important in PVP and with 5.6 Carnage suffered a major loss to it's burst.

 

Another consideration is that because Ferocity is now stack based alacrity has lost it's value to Carnage save for by the amount it is beneficial to every spec. Carnage was always a high rish/high reward spec which required skill to perform optimally, and it's speed was it's hall mark. Now that it doesn't need any significant amount of alacrity it is non the less saddled with a berserk ability it no longer needs and a stance bonus it doesn't need. Other specs get to choose how much alacrity they want by way of gearing, Carnage doesn't have that option. Again, all specs benefit from alacrity, but the alacrity bonus it receives from Berserk is relatively useless as it's fleeting and not necessary for getting attacks into the window. This is a loss in terms of identity, a speedy spec that doesn't need to be so speedy any more. There is very little reason now to use alacrity in gear. The spec now benefits more from stacking power and crit and is very much more like Rage juggs in that regard.

 

Lastly, Carnage's DPS value has suffered greatly from all these nerfs, between 5.2 and 5.6 estimates of the combined loss could be as high as 1000 DPS. Progression groups would be foolish to take a Carnage Marauder over Fury or Anni. Fury eclipses Carnage in every possible way.

 

The playstyle change is for me one of the worst aspects of how Carnage has been effected by the 5.6 changes. It doesn't play the same or feel the same. I do seem to be doing fairly well with it damage wise, but I believable that has more to do with my experience rather than any innate aspect of the spec. Even still, I did better prior to 5.6 and the difference is noticeable. I may very well be one of 5 or 6 people who still use Carnage in PVP on Star Forge. Everyone is using Fury now and to be fair, it's perfectly understandable given it's easier playstyle, it's greater mobility, that it can leap to Snipers, and it's anti-cc passives [ccs are constant]. They simply have more uptime than Anni or Carnage. I'd estimate 80% of Marauders you find in PVP are Fury.

 

Does the stack based Ferocity window provide more reliability? It certainly does, but at the cost of significant DPS.

Most people that mained Carnage loved the challenge of the spec, were intoxicated by it's speed, and wore the notion of 'high risk/high reward' as a badge of honor. I much prefer less reliability but higher potentials. I would have rather they not have made the ferocity window stack based and had simply removed the possibility of clipping entirely but than left the spec otherwise unchanged.

 

I'm happy that Fury finally got some love, it was a long time coming and they deserved improvement. I just wish it hadn't come at the cost of Carnage.

 

This isn't Carnage.

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In my opinion it was a good design decission to remove clipping, it gave players with modern hardware and a fast internet connection an unfair advantage.

 

I use an older laptop for SWTOR (->bigger latencies) where clipping did not really work. At the test dummy I could sometimes buff 3 attacks, but when I checked my combat log of pvp matches and raids clipping systematically failed. In real fights only 2 attacks profitted from the armor debuff.

 

The game mechanics of Fury are much more complicated than of Carnage, gamers who use a priority list produce many more fillers and delays of core attacks. The Cascade Force is a bit tough to handle with a prio list, Fury will parse much lower.

 

I am glad they removed clipping.

Edited by salaciousc
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  • 2 weeks later...
In my opinion it was a good design decission to remove clipping, it gave players with modern hardware and a fast internet connection an unfair advantage.

 

I use an older laptop for SWTOR (->bigger latencies) where clipping did not really work. At the test dummy I could sometimes buff 3 attacks, but when I checked my combat log of pvp matches and raids clipping systematically failed. In real fights only 2 attacks profitted from the armor debuff.

 

The game mechanics of Fury are much more complicated than of Carnage, gamers who use a priority list produce many more fillers and delays of core attacks. The Cascade Force is a bit tough to handle with a prio list, Fury will parse much lower.

 

I am glad they removed clipping.

 

The problem is they didn't actually remove it. You can still activate Ferocity before Vicious Throw hits and it'll take up a Ferocity stack, which basically means that you can still clip but it doesn't provide any advantage at all, it just screws everyone who has it muscle-memorized already.

So they didn't fix the problem, they kinda just nerfed us without fixing what they said they would and in the process completely ****ed Carnage's design as a spec. Fury is not a hard spec to play at all, it's a fairly simple priority system and a monkey could push decent rating in Ranked PvP with it. That's not to say Carnage is hard, its rotation is very user-friendly especially with Ferocity now. But it's damage is severely worse than Fury's, this is widely agreed upon by Marauder mains pretty much everywhere. The only problem Fury has is sometimes Rage management, and even then? Not that big of a deal. It parses better than Carnage now, and that's a fact. By taking away Carnage's speedplay, they took away any semblance of skill by playing the spec and effectively punish people for playing it in PvE over Fury.

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Devs should just change ferocity by

A. add 1 more stack to each window ( 3 outside beserk, and 4 inside beserk) and

B. vicious throw and dual saber throw no longer are abilities affected by ferocity, and the other abilities that can be used in ferocity get a 5% increase in damage dealt.

This helps by slightly increasing the damage lost of using your throw abilities being clipped into ferocity, and finally devs can stop dancing around clipping. Increasing the damage of devastating, massacre, gore, and sweeping slash when expelling stacks, though honestly thinking 10% is too much. I preferred clipping and the old ferocity myself, but if they honestly want to push the ferocity stacks and wanting to get rid of clipping, at least don't destroy the spec in the process.

Edited by PrometheanDeath
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  • 3 weeks later...
In my opinion it was a good design decission to remove clipping, it gave players with modern hardware and a fast internet connection an unfair advantage.

 

I use an older laptop for SWTOR (->bigger latencies) where clipping did not really work. At the test dummy I could sometimes buff 3 attacks, but when I checked my combat log of pvp matches and raids clipping systematically failed. In real fights only 2 attacks profitted from the armor debuff.

 

The game mechanics of Fury are much more complicated than of Carnage, gamers who use a priority list produce many more fillers and delays of core attacks. The Cascade Force is a bit tough to handle with a prio list, Fury will parse much lower.

 

I am glad they removed clipping.

 

Life doesn't change to make everyone equal, nor should this game. People who spend the money for "modern hardware" and time to master the class should be better than those that don't.

 

PERIOD

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  • 4 weeks later...
In my opinion it was a good design decission to remove clipping, it gave players with modern hardware and a fast internet connection an unfair advantage.

 

I use an older laptop for SWTOR (->bigger latencies) where clipping did not really work. At the test dummy I could sometimes buff 3 attacks, but when I checked my combat log of pvp matches and raids clipping systematically failed. In real fights only 2 attacks profitted from the armor debuff.

 

The game mechanics of Fury are much more complicated than of Carnage, gamers who use a priority list produce many more fillers and delays of core attacks. The Cascade Force is a bit tough to handle with a prio list, Fury will parse much lower.

 

I am glad they removed clipping.

 

I could clip vicious throw with 130ms ping plus unpredictable ping spikes of up to 300~ ms

 

and in pvp (warzones) and operations, I had approx 30 fps

 

assuming hardware is the reason is a relatively laughable point

simply put, you never put practice into it, and even if you did, it clearly wasn't good enough

people put time and pride into their efforts to become better gamers, a class shouldn't be made easier simply because an entity whether minority or majority exists that doesn't want to put the time down to perfect their gameplay and mechanics.

Calling it 'fair' is beyond on insult, because you've put into question the time those people have spent to get better at a game they enjoy. Now their time has been wasted, and you think they should be grateful for it? Well aren't you special

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  • 4 weeks later...
Life doesn't change to make everyone equal,

 

Friendly gods would aim for equal chances, though ;-)

 

nor should this game.

 

It obviously can't. But it can give everyone equal opportunities.

 

People who spend the money for "modern hardware"

 

No.

 

and time to master the class should be better than those that don't.

 

Yes.

 

However, here's what defines if devs of games with group content and thus social mechanics have done their job "better": See to it that dedication gives advantage, but balance the amount in a way that people whose circumstances limit the dedication they can give the game don't feel completely outcast. Otherwise you'll very soon be sitting in a very small pool of elitist no-lifers ;-)

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@Dread_Bone, Bonzenaattori

 

Now I am curious what real masters of Carnage are capable of. Could you send your rotations, please?

 

So far I have only seen sequences of 4 or 5 attacks but no real Carnage rotations. Attack sequences (and priority lists) for Fury and Rage parse lower than the 2 posted rotations, perhaps there are similar reasons why Carnage underperforms atm.

I think the community needs a real rotation for Carnage.

 

Please open a new thread, a discussion about Carnage does not really fit in here.

 

Scaeva

Edited by salaciousc
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