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Lucas' Sidious, EU Sidious, & Vader Debate for Lore Junkies.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Lucas' Sidious, EU Sidious, & Vader Debate for Lore Junkies.

Jadedfate's Avatar


Jadedfate
12.15.2011 , 08:48 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by plandream View Post
OK.Wait:

Empire:Sidious,Vader
Republic:Luke,Yoda,Ben

3vs2 andin the end 1 vs 0.This is no balance.He messed up.

P.S. Leia counts?She is a force user.
No, according to Lucas the natural balanced nature of the Force is the light side, so in the way Lucas envisioned his creation, Balance is restored by Vader.

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
12.15.2011 , 10:41 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by HARBINGERXIII View Post
So dear forum members I would like to pose a question to you.

As the re-emergence of the versus threads has proven a certainty, a Vader vs. Revan thread is already posted. It seems likely that one featuring Sidious will not be far behind. So before that happens I would like to discuss some often cited bits of canon lore that will no doubt be used.

Now we all know that Lucas states that Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever. & we also know that Sidious in the EU, is for all intents & purposes the "force devil" to Luke's "force jesus". Something which some fans complain about, yet it is canon noe the less. So most largely except Sidious as the most powerful Sith.

Now Lucas states in his version of Star Wars, that Sidious isn't cloned he dies over Endor on the second deathstar. He also states that while Anakin had the potential to reach 200% of Sidious potential, because of the actions on Mustafar he only reaches about 80% of his force potential.

So which version of Sidious is Vader 80% as powerful as? Only the Lucas' version of Sidious, the EU version of Sidious, both versions of Sidious, neither as the canon has become to convuluted perhaps?

Just looking to see what everyone elses thought on the matters are, especially considering the versus threads are starting back up again.
They're both one and the same. People take Lucas quote out of context. The quote in question was about Lucas making more movies. Lucas tends to word things rather horribly. If he truly believed there is nothing after his movies he wouldn't have hired someone to handle continuity, he wouldn't demand that certain characters live, and he wouldn't step in to change entire story ideas. Sidious coming back was his idea, not the comic writers.

Furthermore what he was attempting to say was that his story was about Vader. It wasn't really about Luke. It wasn't about Sidious. The story he wanted to tell was the corruption and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. In a sense there's no other story for him to tell. If he did any movies it'd be based on the EU which wouldn't be his story so he wouldn't do it.

The biggest proof to this is an interview with Leland Chee. He was asked about that very quote from Lucas and was asked if there's two universes. He said no there's only one universe and the EU is included. It's all the same continuity.

Kazmtyh's Avatar


Kazmtyh
12.15.2011 , 02:30 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadedfate View Post
the natural balanced nature of the Force is the light side,
Exactly. Balance is not 2 Light-side vs 2 Dark-side. 'Balance' is not about numbers on both sides.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Azzirith's Avatar


Azzirith
12.15.2011 , 03:18 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
They're both one and the same. People take Lucas quote out of context. The quote in question was about Lucas making more movies. Lucas tends to word things rather horribly. If he truly believed there is nothing after his movies he wouldn't have hired someone to handle continuity, he wouldn't demand that certain characters live, and he wouldn't step in to change entire story ideas. Sidious coming back was his idea, not the comic writers.

Furthermore what he was attempting to say was that his story was about Vader. It wasn't really about Luke. It wasn't about Sidious. The story he wanted to tell was the corruption and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. In a sense there's no other story for him to tell. If he did any movies it'd be based on the EU which wouldn't be his story so he wouldn't do it.

The biggest proof to this is an interview with Leland Chee. He was asked about that very quote from Lucas and was asked if there's two universes. He said no there's only one universe and the EU is included. It's all the same continuity.
That's my thoughts exactly! If he wanted the story to end after ep VI, he never should've let other people play in his sand box, and he damned sure shouldn't have collected money for it. When he hired someone to handle canon, all bets are off.

It's canon if it's published, unless it has an "Infinities" tag, which is intentionally non-canon.

BrianDavion's Avatar


BrianDavion
12.15.2011 , 06:32 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Kazmtyh View Post
Exactly. Balance is not 2 Light-side vs 2 Dark-side. 'Balance' is not about numbers on both sides.
right, light side users lived in harmoy with the force, dark side users threw it out of balance. like a virus in an orginism.

BrandonSM's Avatar


BrandonSM
12.15.2011 , 07:38 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by BrianDavion View Post
right, light side users lived in harmoy with the force, dark side users threw it out of balance. like a virus in an orginism.
Nice simile.

smartalectwo's Avatar


smartalectwo
12.15.2011 , 07:43 PM | #17
The old Jedi Order were kinda stagnant and set in their ways, maybe not a 'good thing' any more. Vader brought balance by taking out the old Jedi and the Sith and giving his son a chance to start the whole thing afresh, without any of the old stuff influencing him.
There is no try.

Smithie's Avatar


Smithie
12.15.2011 , 11:33 PM | #18
Well as stated a few times here Vader did bring balance to the force. First by wiping out the jedi order and later killing Sidious.

Obiwan & yoda -------- Vader & Sidious

Only obiwan and yoda knew that luke and leia had survived. Vader believed his child had died with their mother. AFAIK Vader didnt even know he had twins.

With Obiwan killed by Vader and Yoda moving on. The force needed re-balancing again.
So either Sidious or Vader needs to be killed. In the end we end up with
Luke -------- Vader
I didn't count leia because she wasn't even trained or even knew she has force capabilities at the time.


Another way to look at it is that luke & leia are seen as the "new hope". Who were conceived by Vader. Thus he brought balance to the force.
"Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens"

<Afterdark> -> Tomb of Freedon Nadd-EU
My youtube : http://www.youtube.com/SmithianKingdom

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
12.16.2011 , 12:30 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Smithie View Post
Well as stated a few times here Vader did bring balance to the force. First by wiping out the jedi order and later killing Sidious.

Obiwan & yoda -------- Vader & Sidious

Only obiwan and yoda knew that luke and leia had survived. Vader believed his child had died with their mother. AFAIK Vader didnt even know he had twins.

With Obiwan killed by Vader and Yoda moving on. The force needed re-balancing again.
So either Sidious or Vader needs to be killed. In the end we end up with
Luke -------- Vader
I didn't count leia because she wasn't even trained or even knew she has force capabilities at the time.


Another way to look at it is that luke & leia are seen as the "new hope". Who were conceived by Vader. Thus he brought balance to the force.
That is not what the prophecy meant. The force is galaxy wide. It's not balanced by the number of force users. George Lucas clarified that. The force was balanced by the destruction of Vader and Palpatine. Palpatine threw the force out of whack because he was plunging the entire galaxy into darkness. The rule of two enabled the sith to become so powerful that they were threatening balance as a whole.

Smithie's Avatar


Smithie
12.16.2011 , 12:56 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
That is not what the prophecy meant. The force is galaxy wide. It's not balanced by the number of force users. George Lucas clarified that. The force was balanced by the destruction of Vader and Palpatine. Palpatine threw the force out of whack because he was plunging the entire galaxy into darkness. The rule of two enabled the sith to become so powerful that they were threatening balance as a whole.
thats contradicting yourself. You say the balance is galaxy wide and not by the number of force users. But you then go on to say the balance was disrupted by Sidious/palpatine....who is a force user.....and then you go on to say the balance was restored when Vader&palpatine died...both force users.......

The balance is between Vader (the old hope) and Luke (the new hope). Vader probably doesn't trust Sidious anymore and tries to get Luke to join him on the darkside and kill Sidious. The question is could Vader and Luke actually defeat Sidious?
Luke on the otherhand is trying to get Anakin back to the lightside. Both options can't happen as it will disrupt the balance of force and so is not destined to happen.

The major question that we all should be wondering is "Is it possible to bring balance to the force". I don't think it is. Most likely from time to time one side will overpower the other and vice versa always somehow meeting half way....being in equilibrium (which is jedi fighting sith in a all out galatic war....thats the only time when the force can be in balance.

I havent read anything that goes beyond ROTJ but most likely now with Sidious out of the way and Vader, secretly somewhere there is another sith binding his time. While Luke probably tries to rebuilt the jedi order. Hence the whole cycle start again.
"Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens"

<Afterdark> -> Tomb of Freedon Nadd-EU
My youtube : http://www.youtube.com/SmithianKingdom