So dear forum members I would like to pose a question to you.

As the re-emergence of the versus threads has proven a certainty, a Vader vs. Revan thread is already posted. It seems likely that one featuring Sidious will not be far behind. So before that happens I would like to discuss some often cited bits of canon lore that will no doubt be used.

Now we all know that Lucas states that Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever. & we also know that Sidious in the EU, is for all intents & purposes the "force devil" to Luke's "force jesus". Something which some fans complain about, yet it is canon noe the less. So most largely except Sidious as the most powerful Sith.

Now Lucas states in his version of Star Wars, that Sidious isn't cloned he dies over Endor on the second deathstar. He also states that while Anakin had the potential to reach 200% of Sidious potential, because of the actions on Mustafar he only reaches about 80% of Sidious' force potential.

So which version of Sidious is Vader 80% as powerful as? Only the Lucas' version of Sidious, the EU version of Sidious, both versions of Sidious, neither as the canon has become to convuluted perhaps?

Just looking to see what everyone elses thought on the matters are, especially considering the versus threads are starting back up again.

Well, since Lucas stated that for him Sidious died on the second death star, I believe he refers to the one from the movies when speaking Vader is at 80% compared to him...

So is the whole "Vader is 80% of Sidious power" a legitimate argument as it is always refrenced in Vader versus anyone debates?

I think it's a hard debate... everyone can turn it the way they like the most, so there will always be people taking for good one or the other option... I do not remember if there are, but if we can find stats for both Vader and Revan and/or Sidious in some RPG manuals (like the D20 one) maybe that can be taken as a middle ground by everyone...

Anyway, Lucas is the creator of the character, so I think we should take his statement as the rule...

80% compared to Sidious from the movies.He lost his potential by losing limbs and not being mature enough when he did so(or something like that).

Anakin is supposed to be the "Saviour", the One that will bring balance.

He failed IMHO.

Vader did bring balance.

In a galaxy of 10,000 Jedi in absolute control of the galaxy and a non-existent dark side, he pulled the balance back. A little too far. And then balanced it back out by killing the emperor. And then screwed it up by dying? Oh, hm. Nvm.

OK.Wait:

Empire:Sidious,Vader

Republic:Luke,Yoda,Ben

3vs2 andin the end 1 vs 0.This is no balance.He messed up.

P.S. Leia counts?She is a force user.

80% compared to Sidious from the movies.He lost his potential by losing limbs and not being mature enough when he did so(or something like that).

 

Anakin is supposed to be the "Saviour", the One that will bring balance.

 

He failed IMHO.

technically he did bring balance through the destruction of the Jedi (whose numbers vastly exceeded the 2 Sith by thousands, obviously I'd hope).

as for Sidious, the books do him more justice than the movies do in regards to his power. The reason he's theoretically the strongest is, because he is the culmination of thousands of years of studying and refining the Sith Lord's Dark Side craft according to the Rule of Two. Each Apprentice/Master is supposed to get stronger over time, while the master is the pure embodiment of the Dark Side of the Force. That for sure was Sidious, a empty black hole in the universe of the Force. That's why the Masters (Jedi) had no longer the ability to foresee accurately within the Force (even though they'd say the future is always moving, and so the ability to predict does not mean it will come to be kind of thing), because he sucks in the light and gives only the dark.

OK.Wait:

 

Empire:Sidious,Vader

Republic:Luke,Yoda,Ben

 

3vs2 andin the end 1 vs 0.This is no balance.He messed up.

 

P.S. Leia counts?She is a force user.

Well, you know, two on the Republic side are old and tired, and the other one is almost not trained at all before ROJ...

On the other hand we have a beyond counting old embodiment of the Dark Side and his fearless and ruthless half-cyborg apprentice...

So, now, which side is unbalanced?

OK.Wait:

 

Empire:Sidious,Vader

Republic:Luke,Yoda,Ben

 

3vs2 andin the end 1 vs 0.This is no balance.He messed up.

 

P.S. Leia counts?She is a force user.

No, according to Lucas the natural balanced nature of the Force is the light side, so in the way Lucas envisioned his creation, Balance is restored by Vader.

So dear forum members I would like to pose a question to you.

 

As the re-emergence of the versus threads has proven a certainty, a Vader vs. Revan thread is already posted. It seems likely that one featuring Sidious will not be far behind. So before that happens I would like to discuss some often cited bits of canon lore that will no doubt be used.

 

Now we all know that Lucas states that Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever. & we also know that Sidious in the EU, is for all intents & purposes the "force devil" to Luke's "force jesus". Something which some fans complain about, yet it is canon noe the less. So most largely except Sidious as the most powerful Sith.

 

Now Lucas states in his version of Star Wars, that Sidious isn't cloned he dies over Endor on the second deathstar. He also states that while Anakin had the potential to reach 200% of Sidious potential, because of the actions on Mustafar he only reaches about 80% of his force potential.

 

So which version of Sidious is Vader 80% as powerful as? Only the Lucas' version of Sidious, the EU version of Sidious, both versions of Sidious, neither as the canon has become to convuluted perhaps?

 

Just looking to see what everyone elses thought on the matters are, especially considering the versus threads are starting back up again.

They're both one and the same. People take Lucas quote out of context. The quote in question was about Lucas making more movies. Lucas tends to word things rather horribly. If he truly believed there is nothing after his movies he wouldn't have hired someone to handle continuity, he wouldn't demand that certain characters live, and he wouldn't step in to change entire story ideas. Sidious coming back was his idea, not the comic writers.

Furthermore what he was attempting to say was that his story was about Vader. It wasn't really about Luke. It wasn't about Sidious. The story he wanted to tell was the corruption and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. In a sense there's no other story for him to tell. If he did any movies it'd be based on the EU which wouldn't be his story so he wouldn't do it.

The biggest proof to this is an interview with Leland Chee. He was asked about that very quote from Lucas and was asked if there's two universes. He said no there's only one universe and the EU is included. It's all the same continuity.

the natural balanced nature of the Force is the light side,

Exactly. Balance is not 2 Light-side vs 2 Dark-side. 'Balance' is not about numbers on both sides.

They're both one and the same. People take Lucas quote out of context. The quote in question was about Lucas making more movies. Lucas tends to word things rather horribly. If he truly believed there is nothing after his movies he wouldn't have hired someone to handle continuity, he wouldn't demand that certain characters live, and he wouldn't step in to change entire story ideas. Sidious coming back was his idea, not the comic writers.

 

Furthermore what he was attempting to say was that his story was about Vader. It wasn't really about Luke. It wasn't about Sidious. The story he wanted to tell was the corruption and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. In a sense there's no other story for him to tell. If he did any movies it'd be based on the EU which wouldn't be his story so he wouldn't do it.

 

The biggest proof to this is an interview with Leland Chee. He was asked about that very quote from Lucas and was asked if there's two universes. He said no there's only one universe and the EU is included. It's all the same continuity.

That's my thoughts exactly! If he wanted the story to end after ep VI, he never should've let other people play in his sand box, and he damned sure shouldn't have collected money for it. When he hired someone to handle canon, all bets are off.

It's canon if it's published, unless it has an "Infinities" tag, which is intentionally non-canon.

Exactly. Balance is not 2 Light-side vs 2 Dark-side. 'Balance' is not about numbers on both sides.

right, light side users lived in harmoy with the force, dark side users threw it out of balance. like a virus in an orginism.

right, light side users lived in harmoy with the force, dark side users threw it out of balance. like a virus in an orginism.

Nice simile.

Well as stated a few times here Vader did bring balance to the force. First by wiping out the jedi order and later killing Sidious.

Obiwan & yoda -------- Vader & Sidious

Only obiwan and yoda knew that luke and leia had survived. Vader believed his child had died with their mother. AFAIK Vader didnt even know he had twins.

With Obiwan killed by Vader and Yoda moving on. The force needed re-balancing again.

So either Sidious or Vader needs to be killed. In the end we end up with

Luke -------- Vader

I didn't count leia because she wasn't even trained or even knew she has force capabilities at the time.

Another way to look at it is that luke & leia are seen as the "new hope". Who were conceived by Vader. Thus he brought balance to the force.

Well as stated a few times here Vader did bring balance to the force. First by wiping out the jedi order and later killing Sidious.

 

Obiwan & yoda -------- Vader & Sidious

 

Only obiwan and yoda knew that luke and leia had survived. Vader believed his child had died with their mother. AFAIK Vader didnt even know he had twins.

 

With Obiwan killed by Vader and Yoda moving on. The force needed re-balancing again.

So either Sidious or Vader needs to be killed. In the end we end up with

Luke -------- Vader

I didn't count leia because she wasn't even trained or even knew she has force capabilities at the time.

 

 

Another way to look at it is that luke & leia are seen as the "new hope". Who were conceived by Vader. Thus he brought balance to the force.

That is not what the prophecy meant. The force is galaxy wide. It's not balanced by the number of force users. George Lucas clarified that. The force was balanced by the destruction of Vader and Palpatine. Palpatine threw the force out of whack because he was plunging the entire galaxy into darkness. The rule of two enabled the sith to become so powerful that they were threatening balance as a whole.

That is not what the prophecy meant. The force is galaxy wide. It's not balanced by the number of force users. George Lucas clarified that. The force was balanced by the destruction of Vader and Palpatine. Palpatine threw the force out of whack because he was plunging the entire galaxy into darkness. The rule of two enabled the sith to become so powerful that they were threatening balance as a whole.

thats contradicting yourself. You say the balance is galaxy wide and not by the number of force users. But you then go on to say the balance was disrupted by Sidious/palpatine....who is a force user.....and then you go on to say the balance was restored when Vader&palpatine died...both force users.......

The balance is between Vader (the old hope) and Luke (the new hope). Vader probably doesn't trust Sidious anymore and tries to get Luke to join him on the darkside and kill Sidious. The question is could Vader and Luke actually defeat Sidious?

Luke on the otherhand is trying to get Anakin back to the lightside. Both options can't happen as it will disrupt the balance of force and so is not destined to happen.

The major question that we all should be wondering is "Is it possible to bring balance to the force". I don't think it is. Most likely from time to time one side will overpower the other and vice versa always somehow meeting half way....being in equilibrium (which is jedi fighting sith in a all out galatic war....thats the only time when the force can be in balance.

I havent read anything that goes beyond ROTJ but most likely now with Sidious out of the way and Vader, secretly somewhere there is another sith binding his time. While Luke probably tries to rebuilt the jedi order. Hence the whole cycle start again.

thats contradicting yourself. You say the balance is galaxy wide and not by the number of force users. But you then go on to say the balance was disrupted by Sidious/palpatine....who is a force user.....and then you go on to say the balance was restored when Vader&palpatine died...both force users.......

 

The balance is between Vader (the old hope) and Luke (the new hope). Vader probably doesn't trust Sidious anymore and tries to get Luke to join him on the darkside and kill Sidious. The question is could Vader and Luke actually defeat Sidious?

Luke on the otherhand is trying to get Anakin back to the lightside. Both options can't happen as it will disrupt the balance of force and so is not destined to happen.

 

The major question that we all should be wondering is "Is it possible to bring balance to the force". I don't think it is. Most likely from time to time one side will overpower the other and vice versa always somehow meeting half way....being in equilibrium (which is jedi fighting sith in a all out galatic war....thats the only time when the force can be in balance.

 

I havent read anything that goes beyond ROTJ but most likely now with Sidious out of the way and Vader, secretly somewhere there is another sith binding his time. While Luke probably tries to rebuilt the jedi order. Hence the whole cycle start again.

This is from GL.

"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt.

There's the rise of the Sith, who are becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this we have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic...

Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. And it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with.

And then we will get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the dark side..

Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

It has nothing to do with numbers. If it did then Anakin would imbalance it considering there's Luke and Leia. With the Emperor dead and Vader dead. That'd leave two light users. This is incorrect though. The balance was attained by destroying the Sith.

thats contradicting yourself. You say the balance is galaxy wide and not by the number of force users. But you then go on to say the balance was disrupted by Sidious/palpatine....who is a force user.....and then you go on to say the balance was restored when Vader&palpatine died...both force users.......

It isn't the number of Force users that creates imbalance. It's their actions.

The Jedi were peace keepers, they didn't start conflicts, or intentionally caused to anyone.

The Sith were destroyers. They thrived on creating conflicts, and causing harm to everyone. Darth Sidious was the culmination of over 1000 years of deception with the sole purpose of overthrowing the Republic, wiping out the Jedi, and having the Sith rule the Galaxy.

When Sidious instigates The Clone Wars, the destruction caused Is so immense It engulfs the entire galaxy with the Dark Side. Trillions of lives are lost, cities are devastated, and corruption is thriving in the Republic. That is the imbalance caused.

Not by 10,000 Jedi Vs. 2 Sith.

The major question that we all should be wondering is "Is it possible to bring balance to the force".

Yes. Saying otherwise completely negates the entire plot of the movies. I.E. Anakin's destiny.

I havent read anything that goes beyond ROTJ but most likely now with Sidious out of the way and Vader, secretly somewhere there is another sith binding his time. While Luke probably tries to rebuilt the jedi order. Hence the whole cycle start again.

Sidious Was the last Sith. He and Darth Vader was the last line of Sith thanks to 'The Rule of Two'. The traditions that had been carried over at least 1,000 years were gone.

Vader was destroyed when Anakin redeemed himself, and killed Sidious. Bringing balance to the Force by eliminating the Sith once, and for all, and crippling the Empire beyond recovery.

I have no idea where you deduced all those ideas from, but just about every one you state negates, overrides, or completely derails everything stated in the movies.

To answer the original question:

So which version of Sidious is Vader 80% as powerful as? Only the Lucas' version of Sidious, the EU version of Sidious, both versions of Sidious, neither as the canon has become to convuluted perhaps?

For me, It's the movie version.

s. Revan thread is already posted. It seems likely that one featuring Sidious will not be far behind. So before

 

Now Lucas states in his version of Star Wars, that Sidious isn't cloned he dies over Endor on the second deathstar. He also states that while Anakin had the potential to reach 200% of Sidious potential, because of the actions on Mustafar he only reaches about 80% of his force potential.

 

I see people use this quote and say Vader was 80% as powerful as Vader. That's not what it means if that's actually what Lucas said, taken literally, this means Vader is more powerful than Sidious, which is against half the references in the SW books.

He had the potential to be twice (200%) as powerful as Sidious.

Due to injuries he only reached 80% of this potential, still 80% of the 200% he could have been.

e.g. say my mate had £100 and I had the potential to have 200% of that or £200.

Reaching 80% of my potential would mean I had £160, which is still more than him.

Either GL is contradicting his own story, which wouldn't be unheard of or your quoting him wrong.

I see people use this quote and say Vader was 80% as powerful as Vader. That's not what it means if that's actually what Lucas said, taken literally, this means Vader is more powerful than Sidious, which is against half the references in the SW books.

 

He had the potential to be twice (200%) as powerful as Sidious.

 

Due to injuries he only reached 80% of this potential, still 80% of the 200% he could have been.

 

e.g. say my mate had £100 and I had the potential to have 200% of that or £200.

Reaching 80% of my potential would mean I had £160, which is still more than him.

 

Either GL is contradicting his own story, which wouldn't be unheard of or your quoting him wrong.

Not sure of the exact wording of the wuote or it's source to be honest. I used it because everytime a versus thread involving Sidious, Vader, or both springs up it seems to be the default argument for a large percentage of forum posters. However, with as many times as it's been posted, I can't ever remember someone posting a counter argument that stated the quote was false.

Though your posting does make me curious, was Lucas intending to state that Vader only reached 80% of Vader's potential, or only reached 80% of Sidious potential? Hmm, going to have to go looking for this interview when I get a chance, find out the exact wording Lucas used in the interview.

When I wrote this I was intending to say Vader reaches 80% of Sidious' potential, not 80% of his true potential. At least that was the meaning I always took form the quote people use. I'll clean up the wording a bit.

thats contradicting yourself. You say the balance is galaxy wide and not by the number of force users. But you then go on to say the balance was disrupted by Sidious/palpatine....who is a force user.....and then you go on to say the balance was restored when Vader&palpatine died...both force users.......

 

The balance is between Vader (the old hope) and Luke (the new hope). Vader probably doesn't trust Sidious anymore and tries to get Luke to join him on the darkside and kill Sidious. The question is could Vader and Luke actually defeat Sidious?

Luke on the otherhand is trying to get Anakin back to the lightside. Both options can't happen as it will disrupt the balance of force and so is not destined to happen.

 

The major question that we all should be wondering is "Is it possible to bring balance to the force". I don't think it is. Most likely from time to time one side will overpower the other and vice versa always somehow meeting half way....being in equilibrium (which is jedi fighting sith in a all out galatic war....thats the only time when the force can be in balance.

 

I havent read anything that goes beyond ROTJ but most likely now with Sidious out of the way and Vader, secretly somewhere there is another sith binding his time. While Luke probably tries to rebuilt the jedi order. Hence the whole cycle start again.

Please see above posts...Lucas defined what Balance means. The Dark side is the force out of Balance..the true nature of the force is the Light side.