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Carnage has to be updated


sebakonkol's Avatar


sebakonkol
02.19.2020 , 03:40 AM | #1
Its lowest parsing spec in game, melee one with harder than Fury uptime. Its low DPS comes mostly from overusing fillers, but players are forced to do so. Carnage lacks rotational abillities. From what I heard it was supposted to be PvP spec but it has nothing of Fury's capabilities, Fury has CC immune, mobility and *suprise* burst from start of fight while Carnage needs setup of few GCDs.

Here is link to video that shows how much fillers it uses. By fillers I mean Massacre, Battering Assault and Dual Saber Throw because they deal low damage.

https://youtu.be/bP02r_WGF8o?t=71

I think it would be good if Felocity would become passive and be replaced with hard hitting or DoT abillity. Felocity passive buff would be applyed by this abillity or Massacre/Gore, or tied to every DB, Gore and Vicious Throw.

What do you think? Have you got any better ideas? I am open for discussion

Nemmar's Avatar


Nemmar
02.19.2020 , 07:44 AM | #2
The PvP spec is supposed to be the dot spec, funnily enough. You could even read it on the onslaught class/spec previews.

Carnage is supposed to be pve, but its very weak atm. As you say, the rotation sucks. The fanged god tactical allows you to remove one button from the rotation, but with the new ability that marauders/sentinels got, the problem didnt go away. You now need to line up 3 buffs to get the most out of your nukes. It's mental. Too much setup to put all damage behind and then it's not like it's super impressive damage and survivability is worse than other specs.

Honestly, a way to solve it would be to remove the tactical that makes the armor pen buff a passive and just have it be baseline.
Either that or the new ability has to be removed (the 25% damage increase to physical abilities one). Cant have 3 buffs, its ridiculous. I would actually prefer they removed the copied ability from juggs and just gave 2 charges to another cooldown and compensate the damage.
Like, seriously, that skill doesnt work for marauders/sentinels cause they already had off gcd buffs to apply.

areizombie's Avatar


areizombie
02.19.2020 , 09:58 AM | #3
I'd agree with the sentiment that Ferocity / Precision feels out of place in the Carnage / Combat rotation. It feels a bit like a speed bump in what's otherwise a very fast paced discipline. Ideally, I'd like to see it replaced with another striking ability, as I'm not usually a fan of the "press X to buff your next Y" style of ability design.

However, I think that as a whole I'd like to see the development team hone in on what makes Combat / Carnage distinctive as compared to other disciplines. With my Sentinel, I love the feeling of spreading Damage over Time effects around to packs of enemies on Watchman, and I always feel like I'm building to a big Focused Burst when I'm playing Concentration.

With Combat, I feel a bit like I'm just pressing buttons for the sake of pressing buttons.

sebakonkol's Avatar


sebakonkol
02.19.2020 , 12:51 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
The PvP spec is supposed to be the dot spec, funnily enough. You could even read it on the onslaught class/spec previews.

Carnage is supposed to be pve, but its very weak atm. As you say, the rotation sucks. The fanged god tactical allows you to remove one button from the rotation, but with the new ability that marauders/sentinels got, the problem didnt go away. You now need to line up 3 buffs to get the most out of your nukes. It's mental. Too much setup to put all damage behind and then it's not like it's super impressive damage and survivability is worse than other specs.

Honestly, a way to solve it would be to remove the tactical that makes the armor pen buff a passive and just have it be baseline.
Either that or the new ability has to be removed (the 25% damage increase to physical abilities one). Cant have 3 buffs, its ridiculous. I would actually prefer they removed the copied ability from juggs and just gave 2 charges to another cooldown and compensate the damage.
Like, seriously, that skill doesnt work for marauders/sentinels cause they already had off gcd buffs to apply.
Actually sorc has to use 4 buffs (force speed, polarity shift, recklenss and unlimited power, these first 3 has to be used at once to max DPS), so I think BW doesn`t care about it. Replacing Felocity or Furous Power to some rotational abillity would be good, and crit buff from tree, as you said. Crit buff from tree would allow players to freely run high alac builds to get crazy GCD during Berserk

Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
02.19.2020 , 02:17 PM | #5
I don’t think having ferocity 50% tactical as base line is a bad idea. There other possibilities as well. Increase critic damage, as it was easily in 5.0. Increase massacre damage. Increase alacrity. Make ferocity alway 3 GCDs. Decrease gore to 12 sec. decrease ferocity to 9 sec. Increase ravage damage. Possible tactical that support burst, like increase damage by 10% with ferocity.

Personally, I would like that ferocity stay as it is, and critic damage of gore, devastating blast and dispatch increase. This allows for fast bursting under ferocity, which is what carnage was alway about.

Overall, carnage dps should be slightly higher than conc., dec., AP, fury and rage, due to conditional burst, and weak AOE. It should never be out dpsed by fury or any range build.

sebakonkol's Avatar


sebakonkol
02.19.2020 , 06:07 PM | #6
I would decrease Vicious Throw proc time as well. And I disagree with Carnage overdps all other burst specs. Mara is still tougher than most of them, but it should be above Arsenal at least.

Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
02.20.2020 , 12:41 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by sebakonkol View Post
I would decrease Vicious Throw proc time as well. And I disagree with Carnage overdps all other burst specs. Mara is still tougher than most of them, but it should be above Arsenal at least.
It is not necessarily a functional of survivability. It is more an issue of uptime and how easy it is to deliver the damage, consistently. Plus, Dec sin, fury, rage, AP and conc. are all pretty survivable as well (PvE at least). I play mostly dec sin. You get 30% base armor and on top 15% damage reduction from embraces the darkness. This is the same damage reduction as sin tank.

At a minimum, carnage should be on the same level.

sebakonkol's Avatar


sebakonkol
02.20.2020 , 01:05 AM | #8
You convinced me with that Carnage should have high DPS, above other burst specs. At PvP all Fury, AP, conc and deception are played, Deception catched without Cloak is pretty much dead. AP is overall weak in dcds but top of burst. Conc and Fury has recent burst and survivalabillity. Carnage without słów, 2nd leap and CC immune from Fury is quite easy to kite.

Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
02.20.2020 , 08:41 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by sebakonkol View Post
You convinced me with that Carnage should have high DPS, above other burst specs. At PvP all Fury, AP, conc and deception are played, Deception catched without Cloak is pretty much dead. AP is overall weak in dcds but top of burst. Conc and Fury has recent burst and survivalabillity. Carnage without słów, 2nd leap and CC immune from Fury is quite easy to kite.
My comment was primarily for PvE as I noted. PvP is different eco system. I have not played much PvP recently, but marauder is surely the most survivable melee in PvP. Particularly in team fights. In PvE since there are healers and tanks, it is more of how well can you reduce mandatory AOE and cheese off mechanics. Marauder is surely strong in this respect, but for the most part, around equal to most other melee classes/specs.

If we keep it localized in marauder, the PvE dps output order should: annihilation>carnage>fury. Anytime fury outdps carnage, something went wrong balance wise.

wilygrayfox's Avatar


wilygrayfox
02.20.2020 , 11:48 AM | #10
I simply think their damage should be buffed. Since so many cooldowns help with DEF. Aside from Clashing Blast, all our damage is white. Correspondingly, we should be able to hit harder. It takes a lot of APM to align all our buffs to our heaviest hitters, I just think the base damage damage on those abilities should be raised. This'll put us in a better spot PVE and PVP-wise.