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Current returns from expertise and primary stats


Kelrizzo

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I'm looking for hard numbers on the return from stacking expertise and at what point the return on stacking your primary and secondary attributes has a better return. There are several variables obviously depending on what you are looking for from expertise: your damage, reduction of damage to yourself, or heal increase. I see most elite PVPrs stopping at about 1100 to 1300 expertise and then working their other attributes.

 

There are one or two posts that search turns up, but these seem to be pre 1.2.

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I know there is a graphic on the internet about the diminishing return of all stats but I cant remember where. But I can give you the overall knowledge about Expertise vs other stats.

 

If you are a full time pugger its better to stack a lot of expertise (1300+) if you do ranked with awesome healers stack around 1100-1200 expertise and go main stat or power after (main stat's diminishing return is around 1600 if I'm not mistaken)

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I know there is a graphic on the internet about the diminishing return of all stats but I cant remember where. But I can give you the overall knowledge about Expertise vs other stats.

 

If you are a full time pugger its better to stack a lot of expertise (1300+) if you do ranked with awesome healers stack around 1100-1200 expertise and go main stat or power after (main stat's diminishing return is around 1600 if I'm not mistaken)

 

I don't think it's possible to hit diminishing returns on main stat.

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Someone should try to find the graphs. If i remember well - past 2100 main stat - power looks better than main stat for increasing damage. This has no relevance in pvp with current gear.

 

Expertise is mostly linear so there is no much difference between 1100-1200 and 1200-1300 experise. These last 100-ish expertise can be traded for more power and more damage overall.

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Try it and see by youself My damage is a lot better with 1550 WP and 100 more power (calculating the crit % too) than my old 1650 WP. I do more damage overall in all the WZs

 

So PvE players are doing it wrong when I see one with 1900+ main stat?

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dulfy.net prob has these charts.

 

Personally, I just check my before and after numbers piece by piece on my character screen. I currently run with 1290 expertise (100 under my possible max) although admittedly, I'm a squishy sorc who mostly heals.

 

I found the difference between 2 war hero armoring and 2 resolve 27 armoring (bracers and waist) to be slightly an advantage towards the -100 expertise.

 

I could understand how fully geared, more durable DPS classes would trade off more though, if the replacement gear is first rate.

Edited by islander
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So PvE players are doing it wrong when I see one with 1900+ main stat?

 

Of course they are!!:rolleyes:

 

 

I know there is a graphic on the internet about the diminishing return of all stats but I cant remember where. But I can give you the overall knowledge about Expertise vs other stats.

 

If you are a full time pugger its better to stack a lot of expertise (1300+) if you do ranked with awesome healers stack around 1100-1200 expertise and go main stat or power after (main stat's diminishing return is around 1600 if I'm not mistaken)

 

There is no dimishing returns on main stats.... It's 100% linear. 1MAIN = .2 damage bonus. Here is a chart.

 

 

@ OP

There is a sweet spot for EXP, as defined by role. Ranked or Non-Ranked

900 Healers

1000 Tanks*

1100+ DPS

 

These are the soft caps for output where main stats actually produce higher numbers, once you pass those benchmarks.. My advice? If you are PuGing alot, but intend to do ranked, don't stack EXP past 1100. Play your role at these numbers. With the limited healing/skills in unranked, it will make you better when you do transition to ranked...

 

 

* tanks don't really have an "output" per se, but this is the point where END starts to be more advantageous, especially since PvP medpaks offer 35% of max HP. The hhigher the HP the bigger tha Medpak heals (this also goes for all classes and why I say these numbers are where you want to be at).

Edited by L-RANDLE
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Here is the graph that you guys seek:

 

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-998.html

 

After 1.2 they changed how expertise works so it appears that the old 1100-1200 only applied pre 1.2 and the curve is basically the same all the way to 1300. So in deciding if it is a good idea to replace a PVP piece with PVE, compare the stats of the 2 pieces in terms of stat changes to see if the expertise loss can make up for it.

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Of course they are!!:rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

There is no dimishing returns on main stats.... It's 100% linear. 1MAIN = .2 damage bonus. Here is a chart.

 

 

@ OP

There is a sweet spot for EXP, as defined by role. Ranked or Non-Ranked

900 Healers

1000 Tanks*

1100+ DPS

 

These are the soft caps for output where main stats actually produce higher numbers, once you pass those benchmarks.. My advice? If you are PuGing alot, but intend to do ranked, don't stack EXP past 1100. Play your role at these numbers. With the limited healing/skills in unranked, it will make you better when you do transition to ranked...

 

I knew you would be coming here eventually.

 

To clarify; that doesn't mean "Stop getting Expertise when you hit these numbers;" right. Just once you go to min max, and start finding things with stats that take you down toward these numbers in favor of more main stat, then that is ok.

 

I don't want to see confused individuals just stop buying their WH armor when they happen to just hit those marks while not having the main and secondary stats to replace it.

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I don't see how I'd be more effective with 900 expertise over 1300. When I personally dropped from 1400 to 1300, it was a virtually flat tradeoff. I lost about 1% in overall survivabilitiy ( - damage done, - defense against incoming damage, - healing boost) and instead gained about 1.1% back in overall power. (Edit: Yes, I used resolve 27's)

 

Being a turret healer doesn't help.

If you're dead, you aren't healing (or bubbling) anyone.

 

I can understand the other classes doing it, mercs because they actually have defenses, and operatives because they have stealth and can heal way better on the move.

Edited by islander
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I knew you would be coming here eventually.

 

To clarify; that doesn't mean "Stop getting Expertise when you hit these numbers;" right. Just once you go to min max, and start finding things with stats that take you down toward these numbers in favor of more main stat, then that is ok.

 

I don't want to see confused individuals just stop buying their WH armor when they happen to just hit those marks while not having the main and secondary stats to replace it.

 

Correct... I am saying buy your WH gear damn it!! ......

 

Then replace PvP Armorings for PvE ones of the same tier...

 

Win....

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I tend to run a little low on the expertise in favor of main stat. My sniper has ~2000 Cunning and low 1200's expertise in full WH.

My Juggernaut (tank/tank hybrid) runs in the low 1100s. The Mindset here are as follows:

1. that you are usually the last person to be attacked and there is no evidence that expertise effects damage coming though your guard.

2. If you are being focused by 3+ or more dps then, without a healer, its not going to make a difference.

3. You have enough defensive cooldowns between, saber ward, WZ adrenal, undying rage, Engraged Defense, Unstoppable, and invincible to make up for it and the added endurance from the PVE mods keep you standing longer.

 

If your sitting with 26k Hitpoints, it give the healers more time to get the heals off while you are guarding them.

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I don't see how I'd be more effective with 900 expertise over 1300. When I personally dropped from 1400 to 1300, it was a virtually flat tradeoff. I lost about 1% in overall survivabilitiy ( - damage done, - defense against incoming damage, - healing boost) and instead gained about 1.1% back in overall power.

 

Being a turret healer doesn't help.

If you're dead, you aren't healing (or bubbling) anyone.

 

I can understand the other classes doing it, mercs because they actually have defenses, and operatives because they have stealth and can heal way better on the move.

 

For healer output, I think that is not possible.

 

EG:

900 EXP you are around 10% healing bonus

1300 EXP you are around 13% healing bonus

 

To gain 400 EXP(3% bonus), you drop your main stat around 290 main. Main stats hover in the 1200 range @ WH level.

Thats 20% bonus healing nerf, for 3% healing gain... Base heals brings those numbers closer, as the 3% is over the entire healing calc, but... yeah... try it... You will have bigger heals.....

 

 

As for the whole dying thing. IMO mitigation in PVP is soley based on DFCD not on EXP mtigation. I see no difference in having the raw HP. Its a point of contention, but I always say.. EXP mitigation is highly questionable as to when it will actually be effective, so at the end of the day, take the higher output/burst....

 

 

PS: you should only trade EXP for MAIN/END if you are getting any other stats in lieu of EXP, its not a good idea....

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@itsmymillertime: exactly what i was searching for. The last chart I saw was a conversion of expertise to pvp bonus which is obviously outdated.

 

Good conversation, I'm always looking to get smarter on the mechanics. More productive than complaining about them every single time :)

Edited by Kelrizzo
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Randle, you aren't factoring in surviviability in the equation above.

Although I guess your point is taken in the sense that I include damage output, not just incoming. As a healer I do try to DPS as well to help others, and generally add 80-120k in damage on top of my healing (in bubble stun mode). More if I do the madness hybrid.

 

If I were to factor in only the +damage taken and the - to healing output, then yeah the argument would be better.

As far as my main stat, as a Sith Sorc, my main stat is 2000 (edit: obviously with buffs). Literally, on the nose currently, with 1290 expertise. If I swapped out 3 more armorings, I'd lose 150 expertise and gain about 110 willpower.

 

Another consideration is I almost never do ranked. I'm in a very large guild, and I don't crack the 'A' lineup. Unranked warzones have lots of bad DPSers honestly, I find the need to help more then heal sometimes (because they don't need healing, just suck at output, focusing healers, etc).

 

I like this conversation though. It's making me rethink some things either way. What do you think about crystal swapping for power? I vacilate back and forth on this. Plus I do kinda like the black core with red, it's old school.

 

(done editing, promise)

Edited by islander
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I knew you would be coming here eventually.

 

To clarify; that doesn't mean "Stop getting Expertise when you hit these numbers;" right. Just once you go to min max, and start finding things with stats that take you down toward these numbers in favor of more main stat, then that is ok.

 

I don't want to see confused individuals just stop buying their WH armor when they happen to just hit those marks while not having the main and secondary stats to replace it.

 

Hey Tech,

Check this out. I bought EWH implants to replace my BH ones. I actually feel squishier on my hybrid tank. I moved from 740EXP to 920EXP... Endure+PvP medpak just isn't as EPIC without the higher HP... My damage increased, but lol...

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Randle, you aren't factoring in surviviability in the equation above.

Although I guess your point is taken in the sense that I include damage output, not just incoming. As a healer I do try to DPS as well to help others, and generally add 80-120k in damage on top of my healing.

 

If I were to factor in only the +damage taken and the - to healing output, then yeah the argument would be better.

As far as my main stat, as a Sith Sorc, my main stat is 2000. Literally, on the nose currently, with 1290 expertise. If I swapped out 3 more armorings, I'd lose 150 expertise and gain about 110 willpower.

 

Another consideration is I almost never do ranked. I'm in a very large guild, and I don't crack the 'A' lineup. Unranked warzones have lots of bad DPSers honestly, I find the need to help more then heal sometimes (because they don't need healing, just suck at output, focusing healers, etc).

 

I like this conversation though. It's making me rethink some things either way. What do you think about crystal swapping for power?

Well, yeah survivability is always the point at which this EXP coin stands on its side.

 

Put it this way, as a TANK, my ENDURE talent is based on my max HP, so gaining 3% more expertise mitigation is not worth losing 20% of my HP. I can heal myself for around 15k currently. No healer can match that... If I stacked EXP to the max I would only be around 10k.

 

As for the crystal swap. I did... I think you said you are at 1290EXP right? Ok here is a good test. check your Dark heal rating and then add in your PVP bonus. then take the EXP crystal out and put the power one in and recalc. if you are around 1290EXP, dropping to 1249EXP will give you a better heal, without losing and real mitigation..:)

Edited by L-RANDLE
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Dont want to edit my last post yet again for clarity.

I guess it's just I question whether I'd get enough benefit out of the additional main stat at this point.

 

The surviviability via endurance is meaningless now, at 20.5k current BH buffed health I'm either surviving if I'm solo or dying if I'm focused by multiples. Plus or minus 500-1000 health isn't affecting that result either way.

So it's not about the endurance, it's about the willpower. Somehow I don't see how an extra 110 will is going to benefit me over 150 expertise.

 

(saw your reply)

 

Yeah, again I've done the swap and checked the numbers. Much like a 27 armoring, it ends up being nearly break even factoring in all 3 modifiers. If we're talking pure healing, it's a bonus.

 

I just hate dying, so I don't like running myself too low. when I replace it, and see my force healing go from say 650 to 658, and see my expertise drop from 1290 to 1249... this is why I can never really make up my mind :)

Edited by islander
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Dont want to edit my last post yet again for clarity.

I guess it's just I question whether I'd get enough benefit out of the additional main stat at this point.

 

The surviviability via endurance is meaningless now, at 20.5k current BH buffed health I'm either surviving if I'm solo or dying if I'm focused by multiples. Plus or minus 500-1000 health isn't affecting that result either way.

So it's not about the endurance, it's about the willpower. Somehow I don't see how an extra 110 will is going to benefit me over 150 expertise.

 

How are you only gaining 110 WP? What specific pieces are you referring to?

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How are you only gaining 110 WP? What specific pieces are you referring to?

 

Switching out 3 armoring from WH 26's to Advance Resolve 27s. Resolve 27's are 72 willpower. WH 26's are 34 willpower I believe (or 36, I forget now). So the net gain in willpower for that -150 expertise is 114 willpower at most.

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Switching out 3 armoring from WH 26's to Advance Resolve 27s. Resolve 27's are 72 willpower. WH 26's are 34 willpower I believe (or 36, I forget now). So the net gain in willpower for that -150 expertise is 114 willpower at most.

 

Ah ha... gotcha... ok what is your EXP rating with the WH stuff on?

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