Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Emperor's Wrath vs. Darth Nox (spoilers)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Emperor's Wrath vs. Darth Nox (spoilers)

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
07.29.2016 , 08:11 PM | #311
Quote: Originally Posted by Codedrago View Post
But that's the thing, Nox isn't an example of power through treachery and cunning, he's an example of raw power. Though the Wrath isn't entirley an example of power through treachery and cunning either.
Nah, this entire mmo is a power fantasy. To be fair most game heroes are.

Rolodome's Avatar


Rolodome
07.29.2016 , 08:48 PM | #312
Quote: Originally Posted by Codedrago View Post
But that's the thing, Nox isn't an example of power through treachery and cunning, he's an example of raw power. Though the Wrath isn't entirley an example of power through treachery and cunning either.
I guess we're operating on different definitions of treachery and cunning.

Robot face's downfall was pure treachery and cunning.
As was taking on the power of all those ghosts.
And being reborn or whatever.
And the whole plotline with the cult.

Certainly Nox gained some "raw power" throughout, but the theme was not one of victory through raw power. The overriding theme was about solving some riddle, or orchestrating some grand manipulation, to take down an oversized enemy. Like David and Goliath.

Compared to Wrath, whose overriding theme is just pure, unadulterated power fantasy. Victory through domination. From start to finish, even with companions like slave Vette and DS Jaesa. It's all about domination.

Compare that to some of the companions for Nox, like the Khem/Zash situation. Again, like solving a riddle or puzzle. Ancient artifacts and strange rituals. The theme is more of an investigative one, of exploring the unknown and overturning long lost secrets.

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
07.29.2016 , 09:20 PM | #313
Quote: Originally Posted by Rolodome View Post
I guess we're operating on different definitions of treachery and cunning.

Robot face's downfall was pure treachery and cunning.
As was taking on the power of all those ghosts.
And being reborn or whatever.
And the whole plotline with the cult.

Certainly Nox gained some "raw power" throughout, but the theme was not one of victory through raw power. The overriding theme was about solving some riddle, or orchestrating some grand manipulation, to take down an oversized enemy. Like David and Goliath.

Compared to Wrath, whose overriding theme is just pure, unadulterated power fantasy. Victory through domination. From start to finish, even with companions like slave Vette and DS Jaesa. It's all about domination.

Compare that to some of the companions for Nox, like the Khem/Zash situation. Again, like solving a riddle or puzzle. Ancient artifacts and strange rituals. The theme is more of an investigative one, of exploring the unknown and overturning long lost secrets.
Number 1: Zash's plan and idea. She told you how to execute it. If Sidious told Maul who to kill and how to kill them it isn't proof that Maul is treacherous only that Sidious is. It does show he's capable of taking out the target, however.

Number 2: Kallig's idea. He tells you that you have a natural talent for it and where to learn it. It's his plan to get you strong enough to deal with Thanaton. It's not something the inquisitor came up with on his own. It's not some technique he invented.

Number 3: Again, Zash helps the inquisitor get there. It's not something the inquisitor solves on his/her own.

Number 4: Again, not the inquisitor's sole idea.

There's not much proving that he's a cunning, treacherous, or manipulative individual. Most of Nox's ideas come from others. Nox takes a lot of guidance. The problem is most of it comes via Zash's manipulation. Why it's a power fantasy? Because the one thing she didn't count on was just how damn powerful the inquisitor was. Same with Thanaton. Despite them out maneuvering and outplaying the inquisitor his/her raw power is enough to overcome them. To be fair, I'm not trying to claim Wrath is any better. You spend most of the game getting manipulated by Baras who also finally enacts his plan to kill you and much like Nox it fails and the Wrath comes gunning for him.

If I re-call the developers have stated that Nox's theme isn't manipulation/cunning. It's a story about survival. Starting from nothing and clawing your way to the top. Whereas the Warrior is about already having power and crushing those who try to take it from you. Both are power fantasies. Just two different types.

Rolodome's Avatar


Rolodome
07.29.2016 , 10:17 PM | #314
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
Number 1: Zash's plan and idea. She told you how to execute it. If Sidious told Maul who to kill and how to kill them it isn't proof that Maul is treacherous only that Sidious is. It does show he's capable of taking out the target, however.

Number 2: Kallig's idea. He tells you that you have a natural talent for it and where to learn it. It's his plan to get you strong enough to deal with Thanaton. It's not something the inquisitor came up with on his own. It's not some technique he invented.

Number 3: Again, Zash helps the inquisitor get there. It's not something the inquisitor solves on his/her own.

Number 4: Again, not the inquisitor's sole idea.

There's not much proving that he's a cunning, treacherous, or manipulative individual. Most of Nox's ideas come from others. Nox takes a lot of guidance. The problem is most of it comes via Zash's manipulation. Why it's a power fantasy? Because the one thing she didn't count on was just how damn powerful the inquisitor was. Same with Thanaton. Despite them out maneuvering and outplaying the inquisitor his/her raw power is enough to overcome them. To be fair, I'm not trying to claim Wrath is any better. You spend most of the game getting manipulated by Baras who also finally enacts his plan to kill you and much like Nox it fails and the Wrath comes gunning for him.

If I re-call the developers have stated that Nox's theme isn't manipulation/cunning. It's a story about survival. Starting from nothing and clawing your way to the top. Whereas the Warrior is about already having power and crushing those who try to take it from you. Both are power fantasies. Just two different types.
If you have a link to the devs saying that, I'll take it to mean something.

See, I don't see how what you've said makes Nox somehow not cunning or manipulative. He's supposed to be in training. He's not going to be coming up with all of these clever ideas on his own. Just because he used a bunch of other peoples' ideas and advice doesn't change the fact that he executed their advice flawlessly.

A more brutish person might have fudged the whole thing a million times over. Seems the worst you could argue is that Nox is just good at following orders, rather than being clever, but that undermines the survival argument, since that makes him into a big dum dum who only got by on having the right friends and ancestors. Basically makes him into a privileged moron who happened to be born from the right stock, which contradicts the "coming from nothing" narrative.

Ildun's Avatar


Ildun
07.29.2016 , 10:18 PM | #315
I played as LS inquisitor so i'm not sure, what happens if inquisitor didn't let go those ghost? Does the power which defeat Thanaton easily remains?
This game has a lot of restriction for free-to-play players.
Kindly click on my referral link to gain some benefit before you start register.
My ref link: http://www.swtor.com/r/FGDpgb
Benefits: http://www.swtor.com/info/friends

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
07.30.2016 , 05:45 AM | #316
Quote: Originally Posted by Rolodome View Post
If you have a link to the devs saying that, I'll take it to mean something.

See, I don't see how what you've said makes Nox somehow not cunning or manipulative. He's supposed to be in training. He's not going to be coming up with all of these clever ideas on his own. Just because he used a bunch of other peoples' ideas and advice doesn't change the fact that he executed their advice flawlessly.

A more brutish person might have fudged the whole thing a million times over. Seems the worst you could argue is that Nox is just good at following orders, rather than being clever, but that undermines the survival argument, since that makes him into a big dum dum who only got by on having the right friends and ancestors. Basically makes him into a privileged moron who happened to be born from the right stock, which contradicts the "coming from nothing" narrative.
The videos were from back when the game first came out and they were speaking about the concept behind the characters. I'm not going to dig them up but I will respond to you claiming it undermines the survival aspect. Not quite. I'd argue that Nox is wise for making sure he/she has such capable allies to help him/her with things he/she has issues with. The problem with what you said in this post is that "Nox is in training so.." but we never see Nox come up with brilliant schemes of his own. The problem here is that logically, since we haven't seen it, we shouldn't take it as a truth until proven otherwise.

In real life the most successful kings and queens listened to their advisors. They made sure to surround themselves with people who had skills and abilities they couldn't in order to properly run and maintain their kingdom. If you're not a good strategist, but you need to fight a war, the most logical thing to do is befriend/hire a good strategist. I'd argue while Nox may not be this manipulative mastermind, like sidious, he/she is highly intelligent. Like I said, I'm not knocking Nox. I just find he is underestimated in certain categories and she is overestimated in others.

Zbljuv's Avatar


Zbljuv
07.30.2016 , 05:56 AM | #317
Again Wrath comes across as more cunning in his story. He actually comes up with a bunch of plans on his own(well if you choose the right dialog options he does).

Rolodome's Avatar


Rolodome
07.30.2016 , 03:53 PM | #318
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
The videos were from back when the game first came out and they were speaking about the concept behind the characters. I'm not going to dig them up but I will respond to you claiming it undermines the survival aspect. Not quite. I'd argue that Nox is wise for making sure he/she has such capable allies to help him/her with things he/she has issues with. The problem with what you said in this post is that "Nox is in training so.." but we never see Nox come up with brilliant schemes of his own. The problem here is that logically, since we haven't seen it, we shouldn't take it as a truth until proven otherwise.

In real life the most successful kings and queens listened to their advisors. They made sure to surround themselves with people who had skills and abilities they couldn't in order to properly run and maintain their kingdom. If you're not a good strategist, but you need to fight a war, the most logical thing to do is befriend/hire a good strategist. I'd argue while Nox may not be this manipulative mastermind, like sidious, he/she is highly intelligent. Like I said, I'm not knocking Nox. I just find he is underestimated in certain categories and she is overestimated in others.
I guess Sidious might seem like a poor comparison because Sidious orchestrated the downfall of the entire Jedi Order and such. And Nox did nothing at all compared to that. I just meant the flavor of the story, not that Nox really compares.

But I can see the argument for Nox being more a strategist than a manipulator. That's a definition I'm ok with.

BTW, I'm not one of those ones who feels strongly about Nox anyway. I didn't enjoy the SI storyline all that much. So you don't have to worry about me defending him hardcore.

Codedrago's Avatar


Codedrago
07.30.2016 , 04:41 PM | #319
Quote: Originally Posted by Rolodome View Post
But I can see the argument for Nox being more a strategist than a manipulator. That's a definition I'm ok with.
I'm pretty sure Rhy was saying that Nox wasn't shown to be either, really the only chance Nox gets to be a cunning stratagist/manipulator is on Alderaan.
It's not that you disagree, it's how you disagree
You're a white knight if you like Bioware, you're a whiner if you hate them, you're a scummy fence sitter if you're in the middle.
Why don't go and click this referral link . Please? Pwetty Pwease with a Vette on top?

Elisaie's Avatar


Elisaie
08.03.2016 , 11:37 AM | #320
Well Darth Nox, it is obvious, with his own power he is not ofc more powerfull than Wrath but with powers he gained he is more powerfull than Wrath.Emperor didn't choosed Wrath because he was most powerfull but because of other things, he needed someone he can manipulate, I doubt you could manipulate Dart Nox like that.I am speaking about them as male it's easier for me.