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Trenchcutters and Shadow/Assassin Tanks


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(quick preface before anyone "L2Ps" me: my group reliably clears the trenchcutters in nightmare mode. This is an informational/discussion post, not a nerf/buff request)

 

For those of you who don't know, the trenchcutters in EC Nightmare are beastly. Utterly painful. They're bad enough in 8 man, I can't even *imagine* what they must be like on 16 man. The biggest problem I have is that they require some extremely cheesy tactics to clear if you have the "wrong" tank composition.

 

My group runs two shadow tanks. This wasn't actually by design, but it works out quite well. We also have some incredibly good healers. Our scoundrel generally puts up numbers between 2.2k and 2.3k HPS. Our sage is no slouch either. On nearly any content, we're checked by mechanics, not by healing, DPS or tanking issues.

 

At least, that's how it was before Nightmare Kephess. The trenchcutters pose a really serious problem for shadow/assassin tanks simply because of all the "little" hits. This is a problem in hard mode too, except they don't hit very hard. In Nightmare mode, the trenchcutters hit *me* (in nearly full, optimized Dread Guard) for 1.3k per hit if my shield doesn't proc. And there's five of them. And they hit once per second. Needless to say, I go down really, really fast, and my shadow co-tank doesn't fare much better. Even with adrenal and relic popped, our scoundrel can't heal us us through it, particularly not with the damage being taken by the DPS kiting the two warriors.

 

(random note: we have a gunnery commando and a TK sage, for maximum AoE DPS)

 

So we tried a different strategy: having one of the tanks kite the two warriors so that we can kill the trenchcutters faster. Unfortunately, the moment I use an attack – any attack – on the warriors, the whole pack comes for me due to healing threat (yay combat technique). I can resolve this on the first pack by combat stealthing after they spawn (to drop their pre-spawn agro), but that only works once. There are three groups. We tried a whole bunch of different tricks to try to make this strategy work, and all of them failed.

 

In the end, the only strategy we found that works reliably is *immensely* cheesy. (note: we didn't actually invent this strategy; we found it in a video walkthrough from a guild I can't remember. Feel free to take credit if it was you!) What we do is burn the first and third trenchcutters in the corner behind the walker while two DPS and a healer run around and kill the warriors. My co-tank deals with both groups. Meanwhile, I combat stealth right after the first group spawns and help kill the first two warriors. When the third group spawns, I hit Resilience immediately followed by Force Wave (an AoE with no upper-limit) and run like mad clockwise around the room. Sprint -> Transcendence gives me a decent head start. I sprint again after passing behind the walker, and then I get my second transcendence about a quarter of a way through my second circuit. I stop running once the third group of trenchcutters is down, pop Deflection and an AoE taunt and everyone burns hard. My co-tank pulls one trenchcutter so we can delay the phase, and that's it.

 

I would consider this strategy to be inelegant, to say the least. Unfortunately, I just don't see a way around it due to the way that shadow mitigation works. The amount of damage from the trenchcutters is absolutely obscene, but manageable if you have a tank with a lot of static mitigation. Shadows rely very heavily on active mitigation, which doesn't work well on the trenchcutters. We can't stop to get our self-heal off (because we have to hold AoE threat or our DPS die), we can't hit things as frequently as we normally would (reducing the value of Combat Technique), and Kinetic Ward evaporates literally in the first hit (when the trenchcutters briefly catch up to me, I watch 5 charges vanish simultaneously).

 

Honestly, I feel like this is a mechanic which unfairly penalizes shadow/assassin tanks. Vanguard/powertechs can just sit there and take it like a man. Guardians can nearly do the same, and they have more cooldowns that they can stagger for when they can't. Only shadows/assassins would have these kinds of issues. Granted, shadow/assassin tanks are also the only ones that are capable of hitting the entire second group under the shield (thanks to Resilience) and also the only ones with a reverse gap closer to sprint away, but as I said, I consider this strategy to be more a cheesy workaround than a solution.

 

I'm curious as to what other people have been doing in this phase with shadow/assassin tanks. Are there any other groups clearing NiM EC with two shadow tanks? Do you kite like us, or have you found a way to deal with the damage reliably?

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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We do it normally do the fight with sin tank, and usually one PT or Jugg.... but either way it doesnt matter what tank is tanking, they are getting hit like a fright train and need to mange CD's.

 

Like the poster above stated, there are a lot of aspects in this fight, that favor shadows/assassins over the other tanks.

 

On a side note we have found that a arsenal merc doesnt bring as much aoe dps as a few other classes (you would be surprised by what classes can burst out the most aoe). Also only 2 dps aoeing is a bit light and will cause some issues.

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In our kills, a shadow tanks the trenchcutters just fine with a single healer on him. We have our gunslinger pop the big dome shield thing during the second pack, and the shadow just spaces out his defensive cooldowns for the other two packs. It hasn't been a problem for us at all. Edited by Azaranth
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I also want to add that while shadows have situations where they're more vulnerable than other tanks, you can't ignore the points where they're superior too. There appears to be a hearty amount of grass-is-greener going on in this thread.

 

FWIW - while they might have their shield drop fast to all the trenchcutters... they can also pop Resilience and use an AoE (ignoring the warrior shield feedback damage), acting as a sort of second AoE taunt every minute.... something the other tanking classes can't do. That's a pretty useful tool during this specific portion of the fight.

 

All classes have their upsides and downsides. We clear NiM Kephess with a Shadow just fine.

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He was able to *solo* heal Dread Guard HM through the entire third phase.

I know this is a very irrelevant thing to pick on, but the third phase of Dread Guard is an absolute yawn for healing. Not trying to take away from your scoundrel, who I'm sure is very good, but that example ranks extremely low on the totem pole of healing achievements.

Edited by Aurojiin
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FWIW - while they might have their shield drop fast to all the trenchcutters... they can also pop Resilience and use an AoE (ignoring the warrior shield feedback damage), acting as a sort of second AoE taunt every minute.... something the other tanking classes can't do. That's a pretty useful tool during this specific portion of the fight.

 

All classes have their upsides and downsides. We clear NiM Kephess with a Shadow just fine.

 

This allows healers to start heal bombing the tank at a far quicker rate without worrying about pulling agro in 6 seconds and going splat.

 

Also since it hasnt been mention empowered slash hits for ~18-19k i think... really nasty for healers to deal with when the walker is still up, and you're finishing off the last bomber... a Sin/Shadow negating the hit through force shroud is a god send and relieves a great deal of stress off of the healers.

 

There are multiple kill videos on youtube with shadows/sins in them, the only one that i remember watching where they kited warriors, was Tempest who also used an exploit to avoid saturation fire... probably not the best video to mimic.

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Gotta agree with most everyone here. Each fight in this game has parts that are easier for some classes than others. And complaining about one part that is difficult for you is acceptable, but most people I know find shadows OP and that this fight is easier for them. My particular shadow tank thinks the last part is the hardest part.

 

And tbh coming I here and tooting your own horn like that repeatedly isn't helping your case and getting you sympathy.

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There are multiple kill videos on youtube with shadows/sins in them, the only one that i remember watching where they kited warriors, was Tempest who also used an exploit to avoid saturation fire... probably not the best video to mimic.

 

Actually, I have yet to see a video with *two* assassin/shadow tanks. Groups which run shadow tanks usually seem to rely on the other tank (a vanguard or a guardian) to eat most of the damage.

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Pretty sure this video uses two Shadow tanks. I'm going off of memory though so I might be wrong. Can't play the video on my PC at work.

 

 

It is two assassin tanks. Interesting. I saw this video before I actually did the fight for the first time, and haven't gone back to watch it since. They appear to resolve the issues by splitting the damage between the tanks. They're also running operative/merc healers, which has the advantage of stronger single-target heals than a scoundrel/sage combo.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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For added aoe dps and better burst have your marauder spec to carnage. The combo of berserk+gore+sweep+sweep+sweep....nets me over 100k damage rather quickly (and doesnt overheat/run me out of energy). Only issue with it is the agro your marauder will get... he will need to pop force camo after his 3rd or 4th sweep.

 

As far as your healers getting stomped, pop force shroud and drop your aoe's before your aoe taunt... as a shadow/sin you have the advantage of building aoe threat while under a shield... no other tank has the ability to do so.

 

Also i believe i stated it earlier, but will state it again... doesnt matter what tank you're you will be taking one hell of a beating from the trenchcutters. Yes as a shadow/sin you may take a bit more, but healers shouldnt have to hold back any healing on you, like they have to on juggs/PTs due to agro issues... so it is balanced on that fact.

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Yeah definitely have your marauder go carnage - they put out a ton of aoe dps. Our Sentinel uses zen/centering to reduce the focus cost and the gcd on cyclone slash to .5 seconds. She puts out a lot of aoe really quick.

 

As for healing aggro - we always change our guards to the healers during the trench cutter phase.

Edited by Gashe
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My group completed it with one shadow, but we had him on the mobs almost the whole time. With deflection and your gunslinger shield, the damage is managable. Of course the healers can't be walking around, they gotta be healing with their CDs, but our shadow took almost all of the aoe trenchcutter damage.
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Didn't feel like reading the whole thread. I did the fight on my shadow tank. It's really easy. if you have spevific questions you can ask. It's easy do-able. Trust me. Comment back with any questions and ill do my best to answer them. I'll read the full post when I'm home, on my phone ATM

 

Edit, just read the actual post and realized how dumb I sounded. This can be done with 2 shadow tanks, but yeah strategies would be cheesy. Melvyn, the group and I spent a long time on this fight, the first 15 hours figuring out the trandoshans. I can't tell you how many times wiping to the trenchutters made my cry in vent about why I wanted a vanguard. It really sucked. Again, ill provide a little extra insight when I get home.

Edited by JamesBalla
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Melvyn, the group and I spent a long time on this fight, the first 15 hours figuring out the trandoshans.

 

That sounds familiar…

 

I can't tell you how many times wiping to the trenchutters made my cry in vent about why I wanted a vanguard. It really sucked. Again, ill provide a little extra insight when I get home.

 

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

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So my alt is an assassin tank and whe clearing EC NiM I had to play on it since our off tank was gone, it has full campaign, nothing else, and in Kephess we did it like this, the other tank picks up the first pack. I normally have aggro since the threat we generate us so high and then he gets it back via AoE taunt, after the first two warriors are dead I get to the 2nd spawnpoint, as soon as they spawn I pop my Force Shroud/Resilience to avoid damage, then Discharge/Force Breach, Wither/Slow Time and finish with as many Lacerate/Whirling Blow that I can, and then I use Deflection/Deflection and just hope my healer can keep me up, no aggro loss and warriors die very fast.

 

I agree with you that we assassin tanks have bad migration, but we have some nice attacks and a threat generation that is awesome, so I am happy anyway. We only cleared it last week with two assassin tanks and then we had two very good healers with awesome gear and at least one tank with almost full 63 (and me with campaign) and we did it the same way we did it when we had me and a PT (that we had during the same week and release when we got our server first) without any problems. What is breaks down to is healers skill and preparation, as well as having some awesome DPS that can burn down the adds so healers don't have to many targets that needs healing.

 

If your tactic works, there is no need to do anything about it, even thought you have two "bad" tanks for the fight, it all boils down to the skill of the players in the raid.

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Hey KBN,

 

I have run this with both 2 sin tanks and 1 sin and 1 jugg tank.

 

I will explain the part before the trenchcutters(TC from now on) as I feel this is important.

 

Our raid groups is pretty solid but we sometimes have the jugg tank not be there or 1 of the dps not be there so we swap a fair bit. Ideally we run with 2 tanks(sin/jugg) 2 heals(op/sorc) and 4 dps(2 mercs 1 pt 1 mara 1 sin - one sits out, either mara or sin). incase the jugg is not there, 1 of the mercs switches to this sin tank and we have both sin and mara dps)

 

For the 3 droid phase me, op healer and sin/merc dps take left droid, 2nd tank sorc healer merc take the right droid and PT/Mara take the middle. if we dont have the mara, then its only me and op healer on left droid and it gets to 2 stacks max, mostly 1.

 

Once we deal with the bomber, and this is from atleast 15 hours worth of wipes on this boss, the first pack of TC never ever come to me. Regardless of if it is the jugg or the other sin, they will always go to the other tank. same for packs 2 and 3 as well. The only time I had pack 2 come to me is when we changed strat and I tried taunting 1 warrior from the first 2 packs to come to me, found the TC follow the warrior if I taunt.

 

Anyways, what we do is we cross over to the left of the walker, PT/Mata or PT/SIn pick up one warrior each. Both mercs do 1/2 attacks of each warrior, then aoe pack 1. We find that all TC automatically run for the other tank, who uses his smash between my discharge and wither( I wither straightaway wait for him to smash and then discharge, also, if its 2 sin tanks, its a stream of wither/discharge lacerate). This gives us enough aggo without using taunts, and after the mercs have put 1/2 shots into the warrior, one of them will use DFA and the other uses sweeping pistol attack(donno what its called). I make sure my wither and discharge is off cd, and we have timed it so that we have the first group dead before the 2nd group has had time to run to us(we are behind the walker).

 

Rinse and repeat of the above for group 2, but we cant kill them before group 3 comes at us. We just use wither smash discharge or wither wither discharge discharge depending on the combo. No one else hits the mob at this time as mercs help burn warriors. All we aim to do is hold threat till both warriors in group 2 are dead.

 

As soon as group 3 spawns and runs towards us, 1 tank aoe taunts, the mercs(if we have 2) start 2nd round of AOE(1 DFA and 1 Sweeping pistols). and then the PT joins with this DFA. While this is happenning, the 2nd tank will use his AOE taunt and use CDs.

 

I use adrenal as well, I try and not use my medpack unless 100% required. I also try and time it so that i have 3 stacks of harness as soon as I aoe taunt, as my FL straight after taunt gives the heals a bit of rope. I heal myself for 550 per tick, I am sure yours would be higher with the relic. Also, I try and delay the 2nd AOE taunt as much as I can, sometimes when things go properly, I dont need it, sometimes I will do it but I know its only to get some pressure off the 2nd tank.

 

Hopefully this will help a bit.

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This really makes me want to respec my Balance Shadow to a tank spec since my other Shadow on Shadowlands isn't being used much these days. If you find a strategy that works better than the one you posted then please share. I'd love to try this but still haven't gotten into many 8/16 man ops yet.
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This thread is making me .... cry :(. My guild and I have yet to kill Kephess in nightmare so I blame you guys for retiring my shadow tank :D. Nobody hits my tank for 19k (empowered slash :eek:). I am sitting pretty well with 4 configs at 31700hp max hp at the moment with exotech stim and 27 defence. While my preferred config is 30600 HP with 32% defence (transcedence from our sentinels on cd) where the defence is going to 40+ and torparse shows alot of mitigation, the trench cutters aspect of the Kephess fight is worrying me. I am almost BIS 63 with a few bits and pieces missing.

 

 

I have all the necessary dreadguard relics, including the healing one, thanks for the tip, my HPS has almost doubled. I will bookmark this thread and share the tactics with my progression group because I know I will be chopped down like a tree. We are using a scoundrel and commando combo for healers with one above 800 bonus healing and the other close to 800. The single heals are nice, 8ks everywhere but if we dont use the right tactic on these cutters they will be dry and we will wipe.

 

 

We used to farm denova hard mode with two shadow tanks but after some more research we opted for a new composition involving a guardian and a shadow. This seems to work better for us because we complement the raid well.

Edited by Leafy_Bug
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The video linked earlier in this thread is mine. We did indeed run with 2 sin tanks, and the kill we had 2 operative healers hence no armour buff for the tanks. On top of that, we weren't splitting off the warriors out of the packs, our sins were popping their immunity and withering/discharging to get initial agro and tanking the entire pack.

 

We didn't exactly do anything of great finesse, we're very much a group who follows the motto, Keep It Simple, Stupid. One thing we did do was use our sniper ballistic shields (20% damage reduction on the first and 2nd packs. We killed the warriors as fast as we could and we ensured we budgeted our AoE damage to ensure the packs died without wasting potential DPS on overkill. ie, if our powertechs and snipers all lit up orbitals and DFAs on the first pack, it'd die super quick but we'd get left with pack 2 most likely living while the 3rd pack had spawned, bad news.

 

We'd even go as far as to say sin/shadow tanks have a clear edge here as they do allow our no fuss strategy to be executed.

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