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The Fallen Empire storyline is dumb.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
The Fallen Empire storyline is dumb.

Aryalandi's Avatar


Aryalandi
06.08.2016 , 01:50 PM | #11
Arcann and Vaylin are not like the other force users on Zakuul, they are the product of having a darkside abomination for a father, basically they are sith in all but name which is why Valkorion wants them replaced as much as he wants the sith empire to be a buried failure he threw away when it wasn't his most ideal creation. Senya even compares Arcann to the sith.

The knights of Zakuul on the other hand are force users who take all of the religious mythical belief and dogma out of its use and use it as a means to police the empire and serve their God-ruler. I would go so far as to say that unlike the sith or jedi the knights of zakuul most likely don't even have a code that they fallow in regards to their use of the force, they just use it. What sets them apart is that they are fervently dedicated to doing so for Valkorion specifically to the point where they will literally go above and beyond what normal people will because essentially to the people of Zakuul their war on the galaxy is a holy war and they aren't going to lose it.

They are not more or less powerful than sith or jedi, they were simply given a more potent motivation than the other two orders, and they are backed by vastly superior technology that gave them a massive advantage over the people that they were fighting. Historical conflicts have shown quite a few times that religious zeal can make one side nearly unstoppable because the people fighting for that cause /simply will not stop fighting even when they should/ and that can overwhelm battle hardened warriors fairly easily over time when coupled with the sheer numbers and technological superiority Zakuul has.

The only reason that Arcann and Vaylin are stronger than we are is because they were already genetically predisposed to the possibility of becoming force using demi-gods among force users due to their heritage, now we have a weapon that has been force-enchanted for the very specific purpose of defeating Arcann. That is essentially the story so far in a nutshell.

lhawke's Avatar


lhawke
06.08.2016 , 06:39 PM | #12
I would have preferred another explanation for the jedi and sith's inability to defeat these knights other than a special connection to the force.
I mean force bonds connected to arcann and vaylen instead, making their devoted knights more powerful than they would be normally. Anything other than what we got.

JourrnoRush's Avatar


JourrnoRush
06.09.2016 , 11:42 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by lhawke View Post
I would have preferred another explanation for the jedi and sith's inability to defeat these knights other than a special connection to the force.
I mean force bonds connected to arcann and vaylen instead, making their devoted knights more powerful than they would be normally. Anything other than what we got.
There was a very easy explanation.

The Republic and Empire were weakened from, decades of war with each other (Corellia), Dread War and it's lasting effects, the war against the Revanites, and Ziost's destruction. Plus during every distraction, they continued to be at war with each other.

It's isn't so much that Arcann/Thexan (initially) and then Arcann/Vaylin with the Eternal Fleet were "stronger" than the Jedi or Sith, it was just there was whole other empire out there that neither side could win. It is important to note that Arcann and Vaylin are the children of the strongest Force user ever. Plus, they have a legion of Force users (Zakuul Knights) that have no notion of light or dark just loyalty to the throne. Look at the Jedi and the Sith with their morality issues. You don't see that with the Knights minus Senya.

Zakuul, combined with it's Force users, leaders (Valkorion, Arcann, Vaylin), technology, and the timing of the weakness of the Republic/Empire are the reasons why the Jedi/Sith had zero chance.
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Chaloss's Avatar


Chaloss
06.10.2016 , 01:44 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by JasonPogo View Post
My problem is they make a huge point of how Arcann and his sister found this new way to use the force that is SO much better than the Jedi or Sith and we need to learn to beat them. But then everything they show of Arcann and his sister they are just spoiled brats that act like short sighted Sith. They don't even try to make them seem like something more.
Ok, for starters neither Arcann or Vaylin found new better way to use the force. Any credit for it, assuming assumption of its superiority being true, goes to Valkorian most likely. Their weaknesses is also why Valkorian supports you to stop them or at least so he claims.

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
06.10.2016 , 06:03 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Zackaroth View Post
I like the Knight idea because it gives them an easy way to be somewhat netural without resorting to the "GREY IS PERFECT" motif you sometimes saw in the old EU or terrible fan fictions. They even acknowledge it has weaknesses in the second chapter. But I agree this new path thing is confusing and very...cobbled together. This is a problem I noticed in the EU is that when someone tries to introduce a new of using the force that isn't light or dark side, its ham fisted in and presented as a "superior" way of using The Force when Star Wars from the start has always been a space opera about Good vs Evil and Light Vs Dark.
I've read almost all the star wars novels and I don't re-call the whole "Grey is perfect." angle. Luke Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi, always took a strong stance against the dark.

ZanyaCross's Avatar


ZanyaCross
06.10.2016 , 09:58 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Aryalandi View Post
Arcann and Vaylin are not like the other force users on Zakuul, they are the product of having a darkside abomination for a father, basically they are sith in all but name which is why Valkorion wants them replaced as much as he wants the sith empire to be a buried failure he threw away when it wasn't his most ideal creation. Senya even compares Arcann to the sith.

The knights of Zakuul on the other hand are force users who take all of the religious mythical belief and dogma out of its use and use it as a means to police the empire and serve their God-ruler. I would go so far as to say that unlike the sith or jedi the knights of zakuul most likely don't even have a code that they fallow in regards to their use of the force, they just use it. What sets them apart is that they are fervently dedicated to doing so for Valkorion specifically to the point where they will literally go above and beyond what normal people will because essentially to the people of Zakuul their war on the galaxy is a holy war and they aren't going to lose it.

They are not more or less powerful than sith or jedi, they were simply given a more potent motivation than the other two orders, and they are backed by vastly superior technology that gave them a massive advantage over the people that they were fighting. Historical conflicts have shown quite a few times that religious zeal can make one side nearly unstoppable because the people fighting for that cause /simply will not stop fighting even when they should/ and that can overwhelm battle hardened warriors fairly easily over time when coupled with the sheer numbers and technological superiority Zakuul has.

The only reason that Arcann and Vaylin are stronger than we are is because they were already genetically predisposed to the possibility of becoming force using demi-gods among force users due to their heritage, now we have a weapon that has been force-enchanted for the very specific purpose of defeating Arcann. That is essentially the story so far in a nutshell.
Bingo.

Audoucet's Avatar


Audoucet
06.10.2016 , 10:04 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
I've read almost all the star wars novels and I don't re-call the whole "Grey is perfect." angle. Luke Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi, always took a strong stance against the dark.
The problem is with BS from RPGs in which the player is free to do whatever he wants, and writers justify that with "Grey perfection" crap. Kyle Katarn being the poster boy of this nonsense.

The sad thing is, there actually is something in EU, that would have fitted Zakuul's concept : the Imperial Knights. Force Users entirely dedicated to the Emperor. BUT, even though they didn't follow the Jedi code, they had a strict ban of the Dark Side.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Knight

Bioware preferred to go full Revanite Mary-Sueism.

Rhyltran's Avatar


Rhyltran
06.10.2016 , 10:42 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Audoucet View Post
The problem is with BS from RPGs in which the player is free to do whatever he wants, and writers justify that with "Grey perfection" crap. Kyle Katarn being the poster boy of this nonsense.

The sad thing is, there actually is something in EU, that would have fitted Zakuul's concept : the Imperial Knights. Force Users entirely dedicated to the Emperor. BUT, even though they didn't follow the Jedi code, they had a strict ban of the Dark Side.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Knight

Bioware preferred to go full Revanite Mary-Sueism.
Except in that same game if you follow the dark side Luke chastises you for it. (It's Jedi Knight Jedi Academy.) In fact in the EU Kyle didn't agree with Luke originally either. He did believe that the force is just "Powers" he followed the potentium theory (which is a theory that was debunked in the lore.) It led to him falling and realizing it's a mistake.

PlagaNerezza's Avatar


PlagaNerezza
06.10.2016 , 11:10 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by JasonPogo View Post
My problem is they make a huge point of how Arcann and his sister found this new way to use the force that is SO much better than the Jedi or Sith and we need to learn to beat them. But then everything they show of Arcann and his sister they are just spoiled brats that act like short sighted Sith. They don't even try to make them seem like something more.
The story is terrible. The Jedi Order and Sith Order are almost extinct in this "story". It introduces a galaxy conquering super force with super force users in the knights who conquered the Jedi and the Sith simultaneously in a matter of months. By the way not just beat but the head of the Jedi Order is living in the woods and the Dark Council is dead.

Then you proceed to slaughter this force by the 100's, easily destroy their fleet. Infiltrate their capital at will. Steal their fortune. Kill all their "champions". Steal their military equipment.

This was the force that destroyed our expeditionary fleet in minutes of battle and wiped out Imperial and Republic militaries.

I'd like to also address the Valkorian/Vitate issue a bit. So the Sith Empire returned to conquer the republic. Made it all the way to Coroscuant. Then Vitate negoiated a strange peace accord. The war took a turn to a stalemate. So his answer was to run off to Wild Space and form a better empire to destroy both the Republic and Sith Empire as this Valkorian figure.

But when he's Vitate he wants to destroy the entire galaxy. As Valkorian he want to return to ruling it all again? Then he's constantly trying to corrupt us to the darkside. Or use his power to possibly trap us and take us over. He's morphing in and out of Valkorian and Vitate. He's killed as Vitate, incorporal, yet he still is Valkorian? He's trapped and the Emperor's Wraith frees him, but he's not trapped and Valkorian raising his kids?

This story is all over and makes little sense. It could not end soon enough. Just end this non-sense. Please.
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Analyst's Avatar


Analyst
06.10.2016 , 11:47 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by PlagaNerezza View Post
The war took a turn to a stalemate. So his answer was to run off to Wild Space and form a better empire to destroy both the Republic and Sith Empire as this Valkorian figure.
No. It seems that Valkorion created his Zakuul long before the beginning of the war against Republic.

Quote:
This story is all over and makes little sense. It could not end soon enough. Just end this non-sense. Please.
It is not about making sense, it is about knowing sense. We still do not know real motivations of the Emperor and the extent of his plans. We did not even learn when he was telling the truth - and if he had ever did that.
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