Too many words to be trolling, yet completely wrong...

I stopped reading when I read that MM is worthless due to the mitigation resulting from high expertise...as if our own expertise doesn't cancel that out with the increase in damage.

I stopped reading when I read that MM is worthless due to the mitigation resulting from high expertise...as if our own expertise doesn't cancel that out with the increase in damage.

If you could be asked to level a 50, and then to fight other geared 50's you'll notice just how bad the mitigation is endgame, but since you haven't and can't be asked to you'll never get a real picture of how the game is endgame.

As I put in the above post, it fairly easy to see for yourself.

Additionally you will do better damage on a gunslinger in PvE gear than you will in PvE gear, since you get a greater dps boost off of the PvE items than the PvP items. That extra 40-50 cunning per piece really does add up, and that expertise is worthless since your dead if a premade focuses you no matter what you do. In fact you actually get so much more dps out of the pve gear opposed to the pvp gear that it actually a bit ridiculous.

Anyone saying otherwise is not playing competitive endgame pvp.

There is a reason there are practically no snipers or gunslingers left on the pvp servers, in the competitive pvp guilds / premades. As much as I hate admitting it the career is just not worth the spot.

A commando / merc or a sage / sorc will do better dps, provide better CC / Utility, and better survivability.

I do not really need to say much though because its so blatantly obvious to anyone playing end game it's ridiculous.

Eventually Bioware will take notice that we are the most underpopulated class and do something to address that but till then whether you go MM or Let. it's a crap shoot.

Let. works a bit better overall since a lot of people are too stupid to find their purge button, but the difference is very negligible.

Oh yeah I am not going to do all the work for you but I highly advise anyone who thinks that the damage increase from expertise is canceling out the defensive gain from expertise to actually go to tatooine with a guildmate and test it.

Just because we do not have a combat log doesn't mean you can record the numbers you see when you click an ability ....

Idoits.

If you could be asked to level a 50, and then to fight other geared 50's you'll notice just how bad the mitigation is endgame, but since you haven't and can't be asked to you'll never get a real picture of how the game is endgame.

 

As I put in the above post, it fairly easy to see for yourself.

 

Additionally you will do better damage on a gunslinger in PvE gear than you will in PvE gear, since you get a greater dps boost off of the PvE items than the PvP items. That extra 40-50 cunning per piece really does add up, and that expertise is worthless since your dead if a premade focuses you no matter what you do. In fact you actually get so much more dps out of the pve gear opposed to the pvp gear that it actually a bit ridiculous.

 

Anyone saying otherwise is not playing competitive endgame pvp.

 

There is a reason there are practically no snipers or gunslingers left on the pvp servers, in the competitive pvp guilds / premades. As much as I hate admitting it the career is just not worth the spot.

 

A commando / merc or a sage / sorc will do better dps, provide better CC / Utility, and better survivability.

 

I do not really need to say much though because its so blatantly obvious to anyone playing end game it's ridiculous.

 

Eventually Bioware will take notice that we are the most underpopulated class and do something to address that but till then whether you go MM or Let. it's a crap shoot.

 

Let. works a bit better overall since a lot of people are too stupid to find their purge button, but the difference is very negligible.

 

Oh yeah I am not going to do all the work for you but I highly advise anyone who thinks that the damage increase from expertise is canceling out the defensive gain from expertise to actually go to tatooine with a guildmate and test it.

 

Just because we do not have a combat log doesn't mean you can record the numbers you see when you click an ability ....

 

Idoits.

You are straight up wrong here. I have a full set of Rakata (the best PvE you will get) and a full set of champ. When i switch from my Rakata to my champ set, my ranged attack goes down from 9600-9100 but my expertise allows me to deal almost 11% more dmg to other players. So my ranged attack goes down 5% but my overall dmg to players goes up almost 11%. Now I'm no mathematician, but I believe that is a net result of about 6% more dmg to players...that is A LOT. Now lets consider the bolstering effect that is in the game. Our dmg will be decreased an additional amount to bring our gear on par with the lowest noob in the game. This does not effect expertise though. If we are in full PvE, our dmg will be decreased even more due to this. PvP is def the best gear to be using in PvP...imagine that. So worst case scenario, if someone is in full PvP gear, just like me, it will be a net 0% in reduction. Overall I will be dealing more dmg to the other lower geared players in the game.

Our PvP gear also has a lot of accuracy on it. I think I am sitting at about 105%. This means that even if someone has a passive 5% dodge...we will still hit them 100%. We will only be dodged when they activate an ability. Once again, that mitigation is null and void.

This leaves us with the armor mitigation. I agree that this is a problem but you want to know how I get around it? Dont *********** attack tanks. I will target the squishies and when I fight a BH, I lead with a shattershot.

I have no problem in PvP. I get at least 300k dmg (That means a lot when you are single target DPSing) with top kills/KBs in 90% of the games I play as MM. Learn the rotations, learn the maps, learn where to setup, learn better target selection, learn to 1v1 if need be, and you will do just fine in PvP.

You are straight up wrong here. I have a full set of Rakata (the best PvE you will get) and a full set of champ. When i switch from my Rakata to my champ set, my ranged attack goes down from 9600-9100 but my expertise allows me to deal almost 11% more dmg to other players. So my ranged attack goes down 5% but my overall dmg to players goes up almost 11%. Now I'm no mathematician, but I believe that is a net result of about 6% more dmg to players...that is A LOT. Now lets consider the bolstering effect that is in the game. Our dmg will be decreased an additional amount to bring our gear on par with the lowest noob in the game. This does not effect expertise though. If we are in full PvE, our dmg will be decreased even more due to this. PvP is def the best gear to be using in PvP...imagine that. So worst case scenario, if someone is in full PvP gear, just like me, it will be a net 0% in reduction. Overall I will be dealing more dmg to the other lower geared players in the game.

 

Our PvP gear also has a lot of accuracy on it. I think I am sitting at about 105%. This means that even if someone has a passive 5% dodge...we will still hit them 100%. We will only be dodged when they activate an ability. Once again, that mitigation is null and void.

 

This leaves us with the armor mitigation. I agree that this is a problem but you want to know how I get around it? Dont *********** attack tanks. I will target the squishies and when I fight a BH, I lead with a shattershot.

 

I have no problem in PvP. I get at least 300k dmg (That means a lot when you are single target DPSing) with top kills/KBs in 90% of the games I play as MM. Learn the rotations, learn the maps, learn where to setup, learn better target selection, learn to 1v1 if need be, and you will do just fine in PvP.

... wait..

you use the default mods and enhancements in your PvE gear? You left the default garbage in your Rakata? O.o

You dont use augment-socketed implants, earpieces, wrists, and belts? (all things you cant get from PvP gear)?

I also see you have no concept of how to-hit rolls work in this game. The only shot we have that starts below 100% accuracy is Rifle Shot. If you are at 105% accuracy.. you're 10% over what you need to be to hit with everything except Rifle shot (except on tanks, and there's no point trying to counter tank defense chance since you'd need an amount of accuracy that is flat impossible to reach).

Going from my Columi-equivalent PvE set (actually just slighty worse than full columi, as i only have mark 23 armoring in my gear, instead of Mark 25s) to my FULL champion PvP set..

i lose 204 bonus damage.

On Ambush, that's a difference of almost 300 damage. It goes from:

(PvE) 2770-2970

(PvP) 2507-2707

That's almost exactly a 10% damage loss..

which, coincidentally, is what i gain back from Expertise.

I also have an additional 2250 HP in my PvE gear (17000ish compared to 15,000ish)

Its almost an exact wash.

People have expertise confused:

it isnt there to make PvP better for PvP, necessarily (though since it is a lot easier to acquire than getting a full set of the same item level of PvP gear, that is true), but to make sure you cant gear up for PvE through PvP.

Anyone why says Snipers get omgz totally mitigated at 50 is really living in denial...

Here is an example of so called mitigated crit from a Sniper: http://i42.tinypic.com/29viaee.jpg

Battlemaster MM here.

Now really, assuming the target of that crit had 0 expertize, just slash off 10% off that number and you will get the number which I can totally cause to a Battlemaster healer with ONE attack! Needless to say what kinds of mad bursts I generate with Ambush, Probe and Instant Snipe all doing damage in the same timestamp, then FT a GCD later...

Really, I read forums and pretty much facepalm irl, what the heck are you doing with your Snipers? Stacking Accuracy and Alacrity?

Really... I hear all the time "Merc this, Merc that" or "Sorc can...". You know what? I couldn't care less what THEY can do, I know what MM SNIPERS can do and that is basically burst the crap out of any healer and that is, by the way, not something I can do as Lethality will all the awesomeness of armor piercing damage.

MM Burst is in a completely different league than just about anyone, except for Operative.

People listing damage mitigation as a problem are referring to the ability of Tanks to severely mitigate our damage. I'm sure many MMs have had large crits against the squishies, but that really doesn't address the heart of this particular complaint.

That said, I'd have a hard time hitting that crit number unless I pop my adrenal and/or relic, so good job.

Anyone why says Snipers get omgz totally mitigated at 50 is really living in denial...

 

Here is an example of so called mitigated crit from a Sniper: http://i42.tinypic.com/29viaee.jpg

 

Battlemaster MM here.

 

Now really, assuming the target of that crit had 0 expertize, just slash off 10% off that number and you will get the number which I can totally cause to a Battlemaster healer with ONE attack! Needless to say what kinds of mad bursts I generate with Ambush, Probe and Instant Snipe all doing damage in the same timestamp, then FT a GCD later...

 

Really, I read forums and pretty much facepalm irl, what the heck are you doing with your Snipers? Stacking Accuracy and Alacrity?

 

Really... I hear all the time "Merc this, Merc that" or "Sorc can...". You know what? I couldn't care less what THEY can do, I know what MM SNIPERS can do and that is basically burst the crap out of any healer and that is, by the way, not something I can do as Lethality will all the awesomeness of armor piercing damage.

 

MM Burst is in a completely different league than just about anyone, except for Operative.

Quote for Truth.

My sniper decimates everything once I got Followthrough.

Anyone why says Snipers get omgz totally mitigated at 50 is really living in denial...

 

Here is an example of so called mitigated crit from a Sniper: http://i42.tinypic.com/29viaee.jpg

 

Battlemaster MM here.

 

Now really, assuming the target of that crit had 0 expertize, just slash off 10% off that number and you will get the number which I can totally cause to a Battlemaster healer with ONE attack! Needless to say what kinds of mad bursts I generate with Ambush, Probe and Instant Snipe all doing damage in the same timestamp, then FT a GCD later...

 

Really, I read forums and pretty much facepalm irl, what the heck are you doing with your Snipers? Stacking Accuracy and Alacrity?

 

Really... I hear all the time "Merc this, Merc that" or "Sorc can...". You know what? I couldn't care less what THEY can do, I know what MM SNIPERS can do and that is basically burst the crap out of any healer and that is, by the way, not something I can do as Lethality will all the awesomeness of armor piercing damage.

 

MM Burst is in a completely different league than just about anyone, except for Operative.

You aren't hitting those numbers on mercs or troopers. You arent hitting those numbers on any tank spec.

You aren't hitting those numbers on in anyone in expertise gear (you realize there's an almost 10% mitigation gap just in better ARMOR, right?)

It's important because i overwhelmingly run into merc healers. I need to shut them down, and simply cant.

Watching Ambush crit for 1350 is pretty painful.

Lethality/Engi snipers ..... you ppl are BAD and you should feel BAD !

A sniper is played for one reason , BURST . Thats it , you can discuss and imagine anything you want , but unless Bioware greatly ups the numbers on sniperskills thats the only reason to play a sniper , because everything else is done alot better by other classes .

Damagenumbers ? Sorcs dish out millions ... literally millions

Constant DPS on singletarget ? BH/Commandos will do it better and alot safer + bring more utility for the group .

Tanky DPS against tanks even ? yeah those powertechs will railgun the hell out of everyone

The ONLY thing snipers excell at is a ranged BURST on demand with a short cooldown and the coverscreen we can provide in larger scale fights (zerg vs zerg) . If you are doing anything else but play to burst in a group/team you are a liability and should have chosen a class thats by far superior and more usefull for the team for that specific purpose .

You aren't hitting those numbers on mercs or troopers. You arent hitting those numbers on any tank spec.

 

You aren't hitting those numbers on in anyone in expertise gear (you realize there's an almost 10% mitigation gap just in better ARMOR, right?)

 

It's important because i overwhelmingly run into merc healers. I need to shut them down, and simply cant.

 

Watching Ambush crit for 1350 is pretty painful.

If your Ambush crits for 1350 it means only one thing, you run in Centurion vs Battlemaster Tank...

If you think I can't nuke down a BM Merc just as good, you are delusional. They are only tough with their 2 min cd bubble, outside that 4k crit spam without boosts is not an issue at all. Mitigation-wise difference between BM Sorc and healer BM Merc is a whole 10% less damage on Merc. Tracer spammers get 10% more on top of that, but in between Distraction and Diversion, you can basically **** all over Arsenal Merc all day long.

Really, pray tell how 6350 crit on Ambush becomes 1350, really explain me that, I iz dumb!

... wait..

 

you use the default mods and enhancements in your PvE gear? You left the default garbage in your Rakata? O.o

 

You dont use augment-socketed implants, earpieces, wrists, and belts? (all things you cant get from PvP gear)?

 

I also see you have no concept of how to-hit rolls work in this game. The only shot we have that starts below 100% accuracy is Rifle Shot. If you are at 105% accuracy.. you're 10% over what you need to be to hit with everything except Rifle shot (except on tanks, and there's no point trying to counter tank defense chance since you'd need an amount of accuracy that is flat impossible to reach).

 

Going from my Columi-equivalent PvE set (actually just slighty worse than full columi, as i only have mark 23 armoring in my gear, instead of Mark 25s) to my FULL champion PvP set..

 

i lose 204 bonus damage.

 

 

On Ambush, that's a difference of almost 300 damage. It goes from:

 

(PvE) 2770-2970

(PvP) 2507-2707

 

That's almost exactly a 10% damage loss..

 

which, coincidentally, is what i gain back from Expertise.

 

I also have an additional 2250 HP in my PvE gear (17000ish compared to 15,000ish)

 

Its almost an exact wash.

 

People have expertise confused:

 

it isnt there to make PvP better for PvP, necessarily (though since it is a lot easier to acquire than getting a full set of the same item level of PvP gear, that is true), but to make sure you cant gear up for PvE through PvP.

How the hell are you coming to the conclusion that I haven't changed out any enhancements in my gear? I buy extra sets of columni gloves to take the enhancements out of and replace in my other gear so all of my Rakata is moded correctly. Both of my augments are columni with surge mods...so once again you are wrong, as you have been throughout the entire thread. In the end, you can ***** and moan all you want about how bad you are in PvP because everything gets mitigated but I'm just not seeing it. Like I said before, I kill EVERYTHING (except tanks) in PvP. I have no problem whatsoever with any other class. In most cases, Skill>Gear so maybe that is just what we are dealing with here. I hope Bioware does end up listening to you complainers and buffing us because then us sniper who know how to play will be just that much better.

If your Ambush crits for 1350 it means only one thing, you run in Centurion vs Battlemaster Tank...

 

If you think I can't nuke down a BM Merc just as good, you are delusional. They are only tough with their 2 min cd bubble, outside that 4k crit spam without boosts is not an issue at all. Mitigation-wise difference between BM Sorc and healer BM Merc is a whole 10% less damage on Merc. Tracer spammers get 10% more on top of that, but in between Distraction and Diversion, you can basically **** all over Arsenal Merc all day long.

 

 

Really, pray tell how 6350 crit on Ambush becomes 1350, really explain me that, I iz dumb!

From what I have experienced in WZs, 90% of the ppl that play are really really bad at understanding how to pvp. The problem with these threads is that those same 90% come in here thinking that they know what they are doing, and start complaining. They then proceed to tell us 10% that we are wrong and that MM snipers are really bad, just because they are bad at playing them.

To all the complainers...you have 2 MM snipers here telling you that they have absolutely no problems bursting down any class in the game (besides tanks). Rather than coming on here and complaining, why not start threads asking what you can do to be better because its quite obvious that if others are playing the same class as you with the same gear as you and succeeding, that it may be a skill problem rather than a game/class mechanics problem.

Only problem snipers have is dealing with JK Guardians/Sentinels. And that's only if I can't ignore their CC AND they have their CC CDs available.

Everything else, I have a decent chance of winning, so long as I make fewer mistakes than the other guy.

Also, just because you're specced Lethality doesn't mean you HAVE to use only DoTs + Cull. It's not like you're locked out of your base abilities.

I am almost 100% certain that MM pvp specs take the Instant Snipe / Snipe in Any Situation talents.

Meaning they aren't as immobile as these forums seem to indicate.

I am almost 100% certain that MM pvp specs take the Instant Snipe / Snipe in Any Situation talents.

 

Meaning they aren't as immobile as these forums seem to indicate.

Only the instant snipe one, Calculated Pursuit is useless, since it doesn't work with Snap Shot. So yeah, we need to be in cover to snipe.

Lethality/Engi snipers ..... you ppl are BAD and you should feel BAD !

 

A sniper is played for one reason , BURST . Thats it , you can discuss and imagine anything you want , but unless Bioware greatly ups the numbers on sniperskills thats the only reason to play a sniper , because everything else is done alot better by other classes .

 

Damagenumbers ? Sorcs dish out millions ... literally millions

Constant DPS on singletarget ? BH/Commandos will do it better and alot safer + bring more utility for the group .

Tanky DPS against tanks even ? yeah those powertechs will railgun the hell out of everyone

 

The ONLY thing snipers excell at is a ranged BURST on demand with a short cooldown and the coverscreen we can provide in larger scale fights (zerg vs zerg) . If you are doing anything else but play to burst in a group/team you are a liability and should have chosen a class thats by far superior and more usefull for the team for that specific purpose .

So you re talking about EP + crit snipe + FT + ambush (perhaps ambush after EP but wont let u use FT right after snipe)? Engi has Int. Probe + EP + SoS + crit snipe (with the 3rd cluster bomb), engi dmg is lower at the end of snipe, but it will leave dots which will increase the dps if your opponent LoS u, it could even kill them.

I like Engi, because its a spec which has some burst, wont be that punished by LoSing enemies and will be alive more time to prevent a bomb in void or losing a base in Alderan, even killing a tank carrying the ball in Hutball is better in engi than in MM. Burst is everything in the overall killing department, but not everything in the "winning wzs" part.

Still if u wanna keep talking about burst, I think Operatives, even with the nerf, will do more burst than MM, and will do even better dmg to tanks, actually the correct form to say that is "they will do good burst to tanks, while MM does almost nothing"...so is not a good argument that one of "X will do that better". To be honest, as someone said a time ago, Snipers dont do anything better thatn the rest of classes, we re good at X, but not the best, good at Y but not the best, etc.. Burst is not the exception, so dont fool urself.

Really? I do better with my sniper than ever now that I've gotten followthrough. I don't camp cover, I set it and **** at range. It's spread to FOTM eventually and then get a big hit with the nerf-bat, but really everything will.

If you just got followthrough, I'm assuming you're talking about pre-50 PvP.

Sorry, it just doesn't count.

I'd love to play Lethality, if there were dual specs. As it is, it's far too tedious to switch between the two specs (and lets face it, Lethality is probably the worst PvE spec of every class in the game).

It's not that bad actually, but boring because u cant do anything besides poisons WB and cull. Of course in single target, but with adds the thing goes pretty ugly I must admit.

It's not that bad actually, but boring because u cant do anything besides poisons WB and cull. Of course in single target, but with adds the thing goes pretty ugly I must admit.

I raid as lethality. It's a little less damage but I am willing to bet the mobility makes up for it (No dmg meters to prove so...).

Just based on WZ damage, I would say lethality does more, but thats unfair because its a lot more aoe dmg (frag grenade, corr. grenade) as well as dots all around. So in a pure damage standpoint, the only way to test pve damage would be to find a mob with ~100k hp and time the kill. In the end divide the hp/seconds and you have your DPS.

I like beef, and everyone who likes chicken is WRONG AND STUPID!

 

Both are good builds with unique advantages and disadvantages. Marksmanship's failings have been well-documented, but Lethality has failings as well--Purge, for one, enormous energy consumption, etc.

 

If you like one, great. If you don't like the other, then double-great. But liking one thing doesn't mean the other is worthless.

Lethality has awful energy consumption issues, it's really a giant energy dump in PvP. You need to kill your target quickly or you might not make it, as it's sustained damage and energy is quite poor.

The OP is correct though saying that Lethality or Leth/Eng are the best PvP specs right now. It's just true. I'm not saying you can't do it as Marksman or full Engineering, but Lethality right now is an easier and more efficient spec to play in PvP. I'm saying this AS a Marksman sniper too, not as some biased Lethality fan.

So we can sum up this thread with:

Both are good builds with unique advantages and disadvantages. Marksmanship's failings have been well-documented, but Lethality has failings as well--Purge, for one, enormous energy consumption, etc.

 

If you like one, great. If you don't like the other, then double-great. But liking one thing doesn't mean the other is worthless.