boring post, delete it.

Also, im sure many healers stands a chance in the 1v1........

Im all for arena's but 1v1 arena is where you lose me. To make a -good- pvp game you cant balance it around 1v1. Classes have to have roles and places. Meaning a more rock paper scissors aspect than anything. If there is no rock paper scissors aspect your requiring them to completely re-do every class in the game.

Warhammer wasnt balanced for 1v1 in the least and yet that games pvp was extremely awesome, even without rateds.

Some classes were built to kill your class. Part of the fun in group set up and tactics and having skill aid you is in taking into consideration your team build, what classes your vulnerable to. And skill in attempting to be better than your competition that you can overcome the rock paper scissors style.

I feel 4v4 6v6 8v8 to start would be healthy for the game. Other brackets could always be looked into and added. Let's not get greedy, lets try to get some form of arena before we want the best arena system ever made.

Im all for arena's but 1v1 arena is where you lose me. To make a -good- pvp game you cant balance it around 1v1. Classes have to have roles and places. Meaning a more rock paper scissors aspect than anything. If there is no rock paper scissors aspect your requiring them to completely re-do every class in the game.

 

Warhammer wasnt balanced for 1v1 in the least and yet that games pvp was extremely awesome, even without rateds.

 

Some classes were built to kill your class. Part of the fun in group set up and tactics and having skill aid you is in taking into consideration your team build, what classes your vulnerable to. And skill in attempting to be better than your competition that you can overcome the rock paper scissors style.

 

I feel 4v4 6v6 8v8 to start would be healthy for the game. Other brackets could always be looked into and added. Let's not get greedy, lets try to get some form of arena before we want the best arena system ever made.

yes 1v1 arena part may be a bit of a stretch

but I always wanted 1v1 arenas in wow, but it was something that simply wasnt possible.. Mostly because of terrible class balance in wow, 'hard counter' matchups that cant be won etc. not to mention that wow balance department didn't have the balls to fix the class balance down to 1v1 scale (they even gave up on 2v2 during season6)

I included it in the post since I thought:

1. Lot of people worry that patching classes around arena balance would result in even more imbalance, and cause swtor to walk down wow's path / kill pvp etcs. I saw balancing around '1v1 ladder' was something that could counteract such potential problem.

2. It was something that could make swtor arena different from wow's

yes 1v1 arena part may be a bit of a stretch

 

 

but I always wanted 1v1 arenas in wow, but it was something that simply wasnt possible.. Mostly because of terrible class balance in wow, 'hard counter' matchups that cant be won etc. not to mention that wow balance department didn't have the balls to fix the class balance down to 1v1 scale (they even gave up on 2v2 during season6)

 

 

I included it in the post since I thought:

 

1. Lot of people worry that patching classes around arena balance would result in even more imbalance, and cause swtor to walk down wow's path / kill pvp etcs. I saw balancing around '1v1 ladder' was something that could counteract such potential problem.

 

2. It was something that could make swtor arena different from wow's

I think it falls back to that pesky "IF" again. If near perfect (and really to quiet the vocal decrying contingent your +/- 10 would actually have to be more like +/- 2 or 3 which is doggone tough) execution of class balancing without any bleedover into other aspects of the game holds true while warzone/arena rewards are completely interchangeable then I think a huge number of the naysayers would be fine with it.

There's still the argument of the impact it has over the community and personalities it breeds (not unlike the same argument for cross-server lfg tools in pve) but that's a much smaller/manageable number of dissidents compared to those in play now.

Sadly, the biggest reason for the sheer amount of discord is just that the faith in a traditional major-market MMO to truly and effectively deliver on the above is just not there.

Most people wouldn't mind it IF warzones retained equal weight, balance was achieved without impacting any other facet of the game, etc. They just don't trust it to occur in such an ideal fashion. I myself am not a fan of the arena style of play. Doesn't mean I begrudge someone that wishes to play that way.... it just means I am leery of it becoming a much maligned afterthought or an overly consuming portion of pvp with little confidence in the proper middle ground of separate but equal.

 

Patch 1.2:

 

The Outlaws' Den (Tatooine)

 

- Quick Travel items that transport players to the hub near Outlaw's Den are now

available from PvP vendors found on the Republic and Imperial Fleets.

With this patch, there is a little step forward to Arena. I really would like to see Outlaws' Den used somehow, maybe with a little revamp. There is a lot of potentional here.

(Or they can just add a small scale warzone, 4v4, where to win you need to activate a computer placed in the middle (10 seconds cast time, so basically the best way would be killing your enemies - no respawn time)

Anyway, I see Outlaw's Den and this new teleport, as raw material for some additional PVP features, in the future.

yes 1v1 arena part may be a bit of a stretch

 

 

but I always wanted 1v1 arenas in wow, but it was something that simply wasnt possible.. Mostly because of terrible class balance in wow, 'hard counter' matchups that cant be won etc. not to mention that wow balance department didn't have the balls to fix the class balance down to 1v1 scale (they even gave up on 2v2 during season6)

 

 

I included it in the post since I thought:

 

1. Lot of people worry that patching classes around arena balance would result in even more imbalance, and cause swtor to walk down wow's path / kill pvp etcs. I saw balancing around '1v1 ladder' was something that could counteract such potential problem.

 

2. It was something that could make swtor arena different from wow's

LoL, u are right...

"Got bored of wow 2v2 arena that lasts for over 15min?? "

"Come now in SWTOR!!! 1v1 arena games with healer vs tank, that last untill your subscription is over!!!"

....

bump

p.s. went to bed and woke up to see 9 page worth of threads of people complaining about balance patches in 1.2

*sigh* the state of pvp forums nowadays

my instant thoguhts after reading your post,

you probably get high damage/kills or heals or whatever

but that you always lose the warzone because you are unfamiliar with coordinating any more than: kill this guy then that one

instead of arena, i would prefer mech better rewards for a victory,

becasue if you win a macth, that means you have higher skill than the enemy, or they are really bad.

just my point iof view, i dont really care about arena, although i am a pvper,

becasue i am also a pveer and i know that classes would be nerfed and buffed by arena not by the game as a whole

+1

Also sign the petition for a 4v4 Death Match Map.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=365856

Spread the word.

To people that keep accusing arena ruined WOW's PVP because they balanced classes around arena:

you are making false accusation and deliberately using arena (something you were probably bad at) as a scapegoat

blizzard NEVER EVER balanced classes arena. 95% of balance patches were around PVE buffs / nerfs

Example: Druid healers has been broken for over a year now (in cataclysm) and were absolutely terrible / had zero arena viability in 3v3 and 5v5. However they were never fixed in cataclysm because they were 'overpowered in PVE'. All the gladiator resto druid i know ended up rerolling another class or plays DPS specs after season 9.

Blizzard always puts PVE balance on higher priority than PVP. Arena didnt break WOW's PVP. PVE DID

NO

for arenas.The only time arenas were fun and kept me playing in WOW was when I was playing a winning combo of classes but try to have fun with the ones at the bottom. What does the promote? being force into certain classes and talents in order to get to higher ratings.

You keep bringing up the part about arenas helping the developers balance the classes but you are very far from the truth there. Blizzard had years trying to balance classes with arenas heavily in mind and they never will be able to achieve it and they know it. The best they can do is buff a group of classes some seasons and the rest the other and just keep rotating.

I am a pvper and I dont see any real reason to add a rated Arena system in a game that so far the balance between classes is in a sweet spot. Arenas will be a nightmare for balancing. 1 v1? really? no please.

Also lets not mention los objects in arenas and how a healing class can exploit that for easier wins *cough* Shammy *cough*

What this game needs is a more flesh out world pvp experience , pvp space battles and a 16 vs 16 warzone .

If they must put a Geonosis style arena then put puzzles or hazzards on it , kinda like a smaller version of Huttball but instead of a ball is just a deathmatch.

Here is what we learned from this thread:

 

 

Unskilled players dislike arena.

 

 

You're welcome.

I bet you played a Rogue/Priest comb on WOW arenas ? No then maybe any set of the ''OP arena pvp combos at any set of time depending on patch''.

NO

 

 

for arenas.The only time arenas were fun and kept me playing in WOW was when I was playing a winning combo of classes but try to have fun with the ones at the bottom. What does the promote? being force into certain classes and talents in order to get to higher ratings.

 

You keep bringing up the part about arenas helping the developers balance the classes but you are very far from the truth there. Blizzard had years trying to balance classes with arenas heavily in mind and they never will be able to achieve it and they know it. The best they can do is buff a group of classes some seasons and the rest the other and just keep rotating.

 

 

I am a pvper and I dont see any real reason to add a rated Arena system in a game that so far the balance between classes is in a sweet spot. Arenas will be a nightmare for balancing. 1 v1? really? no please.

 

 

Also lets not mention los objects in arenas and how a healing class can exploit that for easier wins *cough* Shammy *cough*

 

 

 

What this game needs is a more flesh out world pvp experience , pvp space battles and a 16 vs 16 warzone .

 

If they must put a Geonosis style arena then put puzzles or hazzards on it , kinda like a smaller version of Huttball but instead of a ball is just a deathmatch.

if you took time to read any of my post, one of my arguments points out that there wont be "WINNING COMBO" "UNBEATABLE SYNERGY" in SWTOR arena, because of the way game is designed

In SWTOR, we won't see that kind of 'overpowered comps' and "unbeatable synergy" in WoW. Reason why certain classes synergized so well in WoW is because of the CC's and shared diminishing returns system, which caused certain classes to synergize far better with others. Therefore some classes have more viable comps, stronger comps, and inevitable class imbalance.

 

CC's+DR is one of PRIMARY factors that determined synergy and overpowered comps in WoW.

 

example: warlock and healer priest could never play in same comp, because both of their CC's shared same DR (fear, psychic scream)

 

 

 

on the other hand, look at MLS, which is currently considered as strongest FOTM comp:

 

mage = sheep, deep freeze

warlock = fear, howl, deathcoil

shaman = hex

 

powerful CC's, all on separate DR. extreme synergy and extremely overpowered

 

 

On the other hand, SWTOR is based on resolve system, and every class has some sort of stun or CC (on a cooldown). So I dont expect to see such exceptionally strong class synergy between any particular classes. In general, I expect ALL comps to be fully viable and competitive, as long as classes are relatively balanced in 1v1! (important!)

if you see any overpowered combos running around, that is probably because it has overpowered classes in them. And same combos probably will also be overpowered in rated warzones, not just arena. (I expect 1v1 class balance can be fixed by studying 1v1 arena ladders and fixing all matchups)

if you took time to read any of my post, one of my arguments points out that there wont be "WINNING COMBO" "UNBEATABLE SYNERGY" in SWTOR arena, because of the way game is designed

 

 

 

 

if you see any overpowered combo's running around, that is probably because it has overpowered classes in them. And same combos will also be overpowered in warzones, not just arena. (I expect 1v1 class balance can be fixed by studying 1v1 arena ladders and fixing all matchups)

But trying to balance pvp based on 1v1 would be a nightmare and end up in constant inbalance and rebalance. Take a Imp Agent vs a Knight Guardian , you buff one to counter the other and suddenly the one buffed will be too OP for another class and so on , it will be an endless thing of buffing and debuffing classes ( Much like what is still happening in WOW) .

See the problem with balance in pvp for arenas in SWTOR is that SWTOR isnt balance on small group like 1v1,2v2,3v3 even with the resolve bar and it shows in Warzones. See it would be a race to kill your oponent before the resolve bars fills up and right then the balance issue will start , should healers have less heals? heals % lower after the resolve bar is fill? Should dpsers do more burst dmg because a dps cant manage to kill a healer or tank fast enough? etc etc.

If you are good, there shouldn't be any comp disadvantage you cannot overcome. This years blizzcon was won by pala+hunter+DK (underpowered comp that no one runs at tournament levels), which ended up defeating top notch mage+lock+shaman (FOTM comp of cataclysm) in DALARAN ARENA (absolutely worst map for hunters).

Below is screenshot of me beating the same mage+lock+shaman that won 2nd place in blizzcon this year. I was playing on undergeared (1 season behind) DK, weaker melee cleave comp.

http://i41.tinypic.com/1zno5dw.jpg

P.S. that is not my DK, it is my guildie's account i was playing on because i was selling him arena rating.

But trying to balance pvp based on 1v1 would be a nightmare and end up in constant inbalance and rebalance. Take a Imp Agent vs a Knight Guardian , you buff one to counter the other and suddenly the one buffed will be too OP for another class and so on , it will be an endless thing of buffing and debuffing classes ( Much like what is still happening in WOW) .

 

 

See the problem with balance in pvp for arenas in SWTOR is that SWTOR isnt balance on small group like 1v1,2v2,3v3 even with the resolve bar and it shows in Warzones. See it would be a race to kill your oponent before the resolve bars fills up and right then the balance issue will start , should healers have less heals? heals % lower after the resolve bar is fill? Should dpsers do more burst dmg because a dps cant manage to kill a healer or tank fast enough? etc etc.

yea i also suggested balancing 1v1 in the game through addition and analysis of 1v1 arena

there are only 36 matchups in the game that can be studied, and less than half of them are truely 'unbalanced' at the moment in my opinion

I came from BG9, multi-glad so obviously I am a tad bit biased toward arena. Almost every player I know that has played WoW arena at a high level and is still holding out hope for SWTOR says, that if they don't have arena in the game by the time GW2 comes out... this games competitive player-base will be leaving. That game will have arena support from release with sanctioned tournaments by ArenaNET from day one. But alas, it won't be Star Wars.

That being said, this game has potential. The combat system is superior to WoW's in my estimation and has the player base to keep it active. So far Bioware has shown they are capable of adapting quickly (unlike Blizzard) and seems to listen to what their customers want (also unlike Blizzard). But for many, its simply is a matter of if arena is out and fully fleshed out by GW2 release. Blizzard is running their competitive PvP into the ground so that's not a viable option anymore for MMO competitive PvP.

I hope Bioware hears the pleas for arena. There is an entire group of people waiting for something to satiate their competitive needs... and that isn't rated Warzones/BG's. I forsee happening here what happened at the highest level of WoW RBG's... whoever gets the first cap/node/whatever wins the match because it is just too hard to attack with a good group of rotating defenders and the ability to respawn. The highest ranked player in the world consistantly in RBG's (before he quit), Reckful said himself that at the upper levels RBG's were a joke compared to arena and fatally flawed.

So please, Bioware, give us the PvP game we all deserve before it's too late! I don't care if there is no gear benefit or anything. Just give us the infrastructure for arena. Cross-server q'ing, arena maps, stat-tracking and cosmetic rewards along with the ability to get the same gear as other methods of PvP because I really have high hopes for this game!

P.S. 1v1 arena I am not in favor of... sorry.

I came from BG9, multi-glad so obviously I am a tad bit biased toward arena. Almost every player I know that has played WoW arena at a high level and is still holding out hope for SWTOR says, that if they don't have arena in the game by the time GW2 comes out... this games competitive player-base will be leaving. That game will have arena support from release with sanctioned tournaments by ArenaNET from day one. But alas, it won't be Star Wars.

 

That being said, this game has potential. The combat system is superior to WoW's in my estimation and has the player base to keep it active. So far Bioware has shown they are capable of adapting quickly (unlike Blizzard) and seems to listen to what their customers want (also unlike Blizzard). But for many, its simply is a matter of if arena is out and fully fleshed out by GW2 release. Blizzard is running their competitive PvP into the ground so that's not a viable option anymore for MMO competitive PvP.

 

I hope Bioware hears the pleas for arena. There is an entire group of people waiting for something to satiate their competitive needs... and that isn't rated Warzones/BG's. I forsee happening here what happened at the highest level of WoW RBG's... whoever gets the first cap/node/whatever wins the match because it is just too hard to attack with a good group of rotating defenders and the ability to respawn. The highest ranked player in the world consistantly in RBG's (before he quit), Reckful said himself that at the upper levels RBG's were a joke compared to arena and fatally flawed.

 

So please, Bioware, give us the PvP game we all deserve before it's too late! I don't care if there is no gear benefit or anything. Just give us the infrastructure for arena. Cross-server q'ing, arena maps, stat-tracking and cosmetic rewards along with the ability to get the same gear as other methods of PvP because I really have high hopes for this game!

 

P.S. 1v1 arena I am not in favor of... sorry.

this

and to people in this thread that tell us to "go back to wow":

no, we're not going back to wow. blizzard is a terrible game company that cares nothing about pvp balance, and never listens to the community

I came from BG9, multi-glad so obviously I am a tad bit biased toward arena. Almost every player I know that has played WoW arena at a high level and is still holding out hope...

I'm curious where you got this information from about high level WoW arena players?

Arena Junkies members, with maybe the early exception of Lopez (lol - yeah, Lopez) almost universaly condemn ToR PvP as being much too simplistic and the skillcap to be way to low to have any type of truly competitive small scale PvP like Arena.

My guild, which at the start was primarly Gladiators from WoW, is now virtually empty - as most have returned to WoW.

... and interestingly, as a side note, many who were in the TERA betas are raving about their PvP system. Hell, a few of them were in Vent for hours creaming themselves about that game... enough so that they sold me on it, although I'm primarily interested in GW2 at this point.

Maybe arena would work here if they treat abilities with dual uses. Example taunts having a different use in pvp that doesnt in pve. Maybe add an alternative pvp tree with lots of ability choices aimed at small group pvp.

taunts are also one thing i like about swtor pvp system, it is a great way to peel and assist teammates

it will have very good place in swtor arena

I'm curious where you got this information from about high level WoW arena players?

 

Arena Junkies members, with maybe the early exception of Lopez (lol - yeah, Lopez) almost universaly condemn ToR PvP as being much too simplistic and the skillcap to be way to low to have any type of truly competitive small scale PvP like Arena.

 

My guild, which at the start was primarly Gladiators from WoW, is now virtually empty - as most have returned to WoW.

 

... and interestingly, as a side note, many who were in the TERA betas raving about their PvP system. Hell, a few of them were in Vent for hours creaming themselves about that game... enough so that they sold me on it, although I'm primarily interested in GW2 at this point.

yea i definitely agree skill cap in SWTOR is vastly lower than that in WOW

but people said the same thing about starcraft 2 when it came out. SC2 has far lower skill cap than original starcraft - but still skill gradient exists that even high masters ~low grand masters level player will rarely if ever take a game from top notch GSL players.

IMO more skilled players will always excel over lesser skilled players, even in games with lower skill cap

if anything, lower skill cap in SWTOR will ease the barrier of entry to competitive pvp, and make arenas more popular than it was in WoW where top level play was restricted to small community of players

Arenas will not work in SWTOR and therefore should be kept out. There will be too many cookie cutter premade groups.

There isnt enough class balance to allow the so called/self proclaimed "skilled" players to actually prove their worth. Those who are claiming to be skilled are the players using the OP classes anyway.

On Ajunta Pall all the Arena kiddines who came across to prove a point have been demolished in both OPvP and in WZ's. They were so butt hurt they went back to the original servers they came from.

Arenas will not work in SWTOR and therefore should be kept out. There will be too many cookie cutter premade groups.

 

There isnt enough class balance to allow the so called/self proclaimed "skilled" players to actually prove their worth. Those who are claiming to be skilled are the players using the OP classes anyway.

 

On Ajunta Pall all the Arena kiddines who came across to prove a point have been demolished in both OPvP and in WZ's. They were so butt hurt they went back to the original servers they came from.

one of the purpose of arena is so that we can study all the matchups and can precisely pinpoint which classes are overpowered / exactly how much theyre overpowered (what % of time do they win arena?), so that they can be adjusted

itd b much more preferable to have the game balanced around proven win ratios / statistics / numbers, and not around whiners on the forums

once they add arena and start balancing around statistics, you wont be seeing much cookie cutter premade comps in WZ's either

Arenas will not work in SWTOR and therefore should be kept out. There will be too many cookie cutter premade groups.

 

There isnt enough class balance to allow the so called/self proclaimed "skilled" players to actually prove their worth. Those who are claiming to be skilled are the players using the OP classes anyway.

 

On Ajunta Pall all the Arena kiddines who came across to prove a point have been demolished in both OPvP and in WZ's. They were so butt hurt they went back to the original servers they came from.

Wrong. Arenas work fine. My server has a weekly 4s tourney, and it works great. Class balance, in spite of your opinion, is fine for the most part. My team wins frequently enough and we don't bring a "cookie cutter" comp. Hell, we use a Scoundrel Healer, Focus Guardian (uses his Guard), myself (sentinel) and a gunslinger. No one thought we could win with that, but we do great.