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Let's talk about Strike Fighters

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Let's talk about Strike Fighters
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tommmsunb's Avatar


tommmsunb
05.28.2015 , 06:18 PM | #31
ITT: A lot of people coming out of the woodwork who don't play or don't like GSF or just generally are not good at the class and think that's why they're failing and will not be pleased by any changes made solely to strike fighters. I realize you're short on resources so please for the love of god do not listen to them. Controls are fine the way they are, people are asking for a sim when they want the controls changed and this is never going to be a sim unless you scrap it from the bottom entirely.

The truth of the matter is you have to do exactly what they told you not to do in balance class.

MAKE STRIKE FIGHTERS OVERPOWERED

At the moment every single ship in the meta is overpowered in their own way and the only reason Strike fighters don't fit in is because they just aren't. If nobody could figure out these overpowered builds then strike fighter would be fine. But they did and they will and there's no point in throwing out nerfs. Nerfing update design is boring and not what we need. Now as for options

You've outlined Maneuverablility/Secondary Weapons/Primary Weapons/Defense

Any change to missiles will add to noob discontent, because noobs don't like dying to things that they think they can't avoid. (Despite the fact that they can.)

Any change to maneuverability also won't change noob discontent because noobs won't know what to do with it. The current rhetoric of being unable to dogfight at close range is also a false dilemma because there is really no point in fighting at close range in a strike as it stands, you're a midrange fighter, why would you screw yourself like that? Just boost away, turn around and retro or barrel roll away and turn around to distance people.

So that leaves us with primary weapons and defense.

At the moment with how evasion and armor pen works health pools feel like they're not worth anything. I'd say you need to buff healthpools to the point that they matter next to passive evasion. But whatever number you're thinking of right now, double it, triple it, maybe even put it on par with bombers and then add some. But if you do something like this, don't add any downside to attacking the strike like you have with bombers/gunships (think drones/mines and feedback as downsides to attacking)


Primary weapons, this ones simple, buff heavy lasers DPS/accuracy to be in line with quad lasers and buff the range on ion cannons to be the same as heavy lasers in every way. The concern of course is that that traps strike fighters into only one build, the issue is that if you buff any of its other components you risk buffing everything else too much.


This would make strike fighters overpowered, but it would fit into the meta.




Final note: Please I beg you do NOT nerf any of the other classes to bring strike fighters into line. Gunships/Bombers right now are in a weird spot where they're really good against people who don't know how to deal with them but REALLY REALLY bad against people who do. I really think scouts are balanced right now, maybe running interference/wingman could use a nerf but as far as it's components go, they're all just addtive-ly good together, it's not like any of them are ridiculously overpowered on their own. There is argument towards distortion field being overpowered, but that's again simply people who don't know how to deal with it and think that because they don't know how that there isn't a way, if you nerf distortion fields missile break you will make the top end of gameplay impossible for scouts because of just how many missiles are always coming in at scouts (seeker mines and missile drones are nearly unavoidable for scouts.)

Buff strikes beyond recognition, but do not touch the rest of the game.
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idnewton's Avatar


idnewton
05.28.2015 , 06:20 PM | #32
Scouts must remain more agile in order to retain their individuality. That means Strike Fighters need stronger weapons. Perhaps their guns should simply deal more damage.
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Koichi's Avatar


Koichi
05.28.2015 , 06:25 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
Scouts must remain more agile in order to retain their individuality. That means Strike Fighters need stronger weapons. Perhaps their guns should simply deal more damage.
That won't make up for the weapon power pool drain consumption. All the most lethal primary weapons consume energy like a Humvee guzzling gas. Weapon and Engine Power Pools need a buff, with a decrease in lock-ons on the missiles.
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tommmsunb's Avatar


tommmsunb
05.28.2015 , 06:28 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Koichi View Post
That won't make up for the weapon power pool drain consumption. All the most lethal primary weapons consume energy like a Humvee guzzling gas. Weapon and Engine Power Pools need a buff, with a decrease in lock-ons on the missiles.
I really have no idea what you're talking about, I have never needed more than a weapon power pool on any ship to kill any other ship and I don't see how buffing powerpool would fix any of its current problems.
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Devrius's Avatar


Devrius
05.28.2015 , 06:38 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
Scouts must remain more agile in order to retain their individuality. That means Strike Fighters need stronger weapons. Perhaps their guns should simply deal more damage.
The problem with said "individuality" is that with Evasion being the only viable defense it's makes them tankier, better armed, faster more maneuverable and overall just better then a Strike at anything but long range combat.

MaximilianPower's Avatar


MaximilianPower
05.28.2015 , 06:49 PM | #36
I'm man enough to admit that seeing a new yellow post at the top of this forum actually brought a tear to my eye.

While I have several thousand games under my belt, I have considerably less experience in strikes than anything else (which in a way speaks to their lack of a defined role) and do not consider myself an expert re: what's needed to bring them in line. I know enough to agree with the obvious issues, i.e. the total impotence of RFLs and the problems associated with relying on lock-on missiles/torps as a primary source of burst. Those are areas that clearly need to be addressed.

So I may not be the SF expert, but I have a couple of guys in mind on my server who are extremely knowledgeable and I'll be soliciting their opinions (one in particular is not a sub and thus cannot post). I'll add that info as I receive it. For now, I just want to thank Alex for throwing us a bone, and to make sure he knows to separate the wheat from the chaff in this thread. I mean, sure, stuff like:

Quote: Originally Posted by Exosasa View Post
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...is utterly and obviously useless (seriously dude, go whiz in someone else's cheerios), but some other comments, like those about controls (which are fine, stop asking for joysticks, people) definitely do not speak to the core problems you're trying to rectify. That's probably obvious too, but I just wanted to mention it. Yes, everyone's opinion is worth considering, but the quality nuggets of info are going to come from Ramalina, Nem, tomm, Verain, Drak, nyghtrunner, caederon, tune, etcetera...the guys who have been here since day one and have consistently evangelized GSF, have flown thousands of games representing every possible scenario, and have been theorycrafting (and/or trying every possible component combo) since beta. This is inevitably going to be a huge thread; we GSFers may represent a minority of the player population, but we're verbose and committed. Your answers are going to be in here, I'm sure of it...the difficulty for your team will be pulling out those critical pieces of wisdom.

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tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
05.28.2015 , 06:51 PM | #37
My thoughts on the "overall" what a strike fighter should be vs other classes.



Strike Philosophy. (I understand that likely 0 people will agree with me, I accept all your hate and ridicule upfront, thank you)


Scouts are the fast maneuverable ship, their way to survive is to avoid damage, their way to deal damage is as a knife fighter/ intercepter up close and personal.


Gunships are long range snipers, they dish out their pain from long out of range of most targets, they survive by staying out of the fray and again being hard to hit when they get into the fray.


Bombers are area denial machines, they dish out pain in a small area REGARDLESS of them being in LoS with you or not. Their defenses comes from being able to hurt while out of LoS (avoiding damage) AND monsterous amounts of health that allows them to tank things.



Strikes should be Heavy Fighters. If you want to make them a true "Jack of all trades" they need to actually be that jack depending on their load out. Clusters already provide good anti evasion "High dps" (Quotes are their because truthfully they arent that high on dps when people can dodge them often enough) "Low burst" (again they may do to much burst for "Low burst") but the OTHER option for Anti evasion missiles be it the Futility missiles (Ion and EMP... futility because they are useless... even if you do manage to miraculously hit with one of them) or Conc missiles dont preform their role because of their lock times and reload times mixed against double missile breaks. I see Concs as the "Low dps, High Burst" Anti-evasion weapon. If they could be that it would help. then Torpedoes are the missiles that arent designed for breaking through evasion but breaking through Hard targets.... like bombers this again could add in the futility missiles but again futility is futility. Thermites are actually decent at this.... when you can finish their lock, both Torps have REALLY long lock times even if you are largely targeting just bombers with them, maybe its appropriate, what's not appropriate is how little Proton's do. Thermites set up for the kill with their Debuff, Protons either need to be able to kill a half health bomber outright (that's 1000 damage or better if any one is wondering) or have a debuff of their own. Finally the Strikes defenses as a heavy fighter and jack of all trades should be some where in between the scout and the Bomber, essentially I think strikes should have the best defense against missiles, but be vulnerable to other things. Fast enough to evade Torp's with enough health to eat clusters and Concs.


TL : DR

Strikes are Jacks of all trades, make them that, make a player capable of swapping between anti evasion, and Anti-armor, be it primary or secondary. Make them capable of evading enough and taking enough to put defenses on par with other ships. Make them a Jack of all, not a Master of none.

Adega's Avatar


Adega
05.28.2015 , 06:52 PM | #38
I've done a ton of GSF both sides all ships. One thing that I'm sure most people agree on is that strike fighters are always second choice due to low damage overall or just plane too squishy.

My favorite boat is the Pike/ Quell. They are what i would love to fly all the time, but cant because they just don't have punch (excepting missiles) or stick . If they could take take serious damage (say 30-40% more), strike fighters would be a whole lot more valuable and desirable for special objectives.

A side note... maybe somewhere down the line a fighter might be used to enhance an ops i.e. removing obstacles or giving some tactical advantage to the raid. Sounds odd, but I like the idea.

Drakkolich's Avatar


Drakkolich
05.28.2015 , 07:12 PM | #39
I normally don't like talking balance stuff but I'll make an exception for this thread.

Since we have a close range specialist (Scout) and long range specialist (Gunship) just make Strikes mid ranged specialists. To this end I think Strikes should get a 30-50% increase on all of their weapons ranges.
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Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
05.28.2015 , 07:52 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by tommmsunb View Post

The truth of the matter is you have to do exactly what they told you not to do in balance class.

MAKE STRIKE FIGHTERS OVERPOWERED

At the moment every single ship in the meta is overpowered in their own way and the only reason Strike fighters don't fit in is because they just aren't. If nobody could figure out these overpowered builds then strike fighter would be fine. But they did and they will and there's no point in throwing out nerfs.

<snip>

Buff strikes beyond recognition, but do not touch the rest of the game.
Despite my huge, detailed, rainbow analysis, I think the above is generally true.

I think you could buff and buff and buff and buff Strikes pretty safely. They will never replace Gunships so long as they can't shoot things from 15km.

They will never replace Bombers so long as they can't provide passive area denial.

They may *partially* replace Scouts, and I think we want that to happen. But Scouts will always have a unique role, even if it becomes more about utility and flanking than about straight up jousting and dog fighting.
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