Or you could learn math yourself and learn to argue. I've stated in my last post specific calculations. Try arguing based on those.

No offence but there's no point in thoerising about figures. You've already shown that adding WP to melee adds 422.44 DPS (1721-1298.56: DoubleStrike).

The starting premise of this thought, er, experiment I suppose, is that BW balanced sages melee dmg output by removing WP bonus dmg. The only thing your calculation shows is that DPS will increase if WP is added and again no offence, if you were interested in the wider context of this discussion and not just putting forward your own calculations you'd have accepted that several posts ago!

As to your ideas on force regen and so on, they're ok I suppose. What do you want me to say?

what broader context are you talking about. That is the info to understand sage balance.... Apply it. Those are DPS number, a rate(do you know what a rate is) not hit for hit numbers. That is the average. That is the context... If that number is lower it is balanced. I demonstrated the context already.

And those are not theories. Those are numbers directly from the game!!! The only assumption was the fact I took 85% and 75% from double strike BECAUSE it does that now at my gear lv on my data screen IN THE GAME! It's not going to vary that much.

The only other context you can add to this argument is in practice. Which has to take into account player ability and efficiency which invalidates your argument! That is the game info right there buddy!

what broader context are you talking about.

You obviously can't determine balance by looking at Sage damage in isolation. Balance, damge balance, is the mean DPS output of classes compared to other classes. That's why I said you'd need to know DPS output since beta for all classes, the boundary conditions that BW determined are acceptable for each class, and only THEN start applying calcs to see if DPS is taken into or out of acceptable ranges.

I'll let you know when I get that reply from BW and see if I get query rights to their DB's.

Um no it's not and yes you can. You just have to understand math properly. That is what a rate is(if you don't take everything into account it's not a correct rate hence DPS). It is hard math. It took into account the variables. I already did that. You don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about. Any variables beyond that stats are player ability and not taken into account for balance. Balance it determined by the hard boundaries which are mathematical. AKA the Peak potential of damage. Any other damage besides the peak, except a game error or programming error, is calculating within the boundries of peak and that is susceptible and the domain of player ability only, and is not usable as a balancing factor mathematically aka logically! the variation of skills in this point like hybrids do not matter. they are factored in already with how they designed the skill trees. The trees are designed to take out all of those factors already and DO!! I'm saying this specifically I'm not guessing!

It doesn't matter what any damage was since beta. It matters what it is now within the specific set of parameters of the skills and abilities. the math I demonstrated already took that into account. And this ability never going above main damage cannot raise the potential DPS meaning it cannot be a balance factor. That is the only thing logically in play to make it a balancing factor. I already took into account the logic of how the spell works before turning it into a Rate and giving my argument. There are no parameters that go outside the logic I stated for this example and argument. That is why it is not unbalancing!

BTW I AM A MATHEMATICIAN AND A PROGRAMMER!

Balance it determined by the hard boundaries which are mathematical. AKA the Peak potential of damage.

Personally I'd define that as max damage. You wouldn't?

PEAK DAMAGE OF THE OVERALL ROTATION NOT THE SPECIFIC SPELL. IF IT DOES NOT RAISE THE POTENTIAL MAX DAMAGE OR PEAK ROTATIONS IT IS NOT A BALANCE FACTOR BY LOGIC. IT IS BELOW ALL OTHER SPELLS IN ROTATION AND CANNOT RAISE ANY ROTATION OR TOTAL DAMAGE OUTPUTS CONSIDERED HIGHEST IN THE GAME THAT DOES NOT SACRIFICE DAMAGE PURPOSELESS MEANING IT DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO BECOME A BALANCE FACTOR GIVEN THE PARAMETERS OF THE GAME. YES I'M INCLUDING OTHER FACTORS OF THE GAME WHILE YOU PLAY PRACTICALLY BUT THOSE ARE NOT AFFECTED LOGICALLY IN A WAY THAT IS A BALANCE FACTOR BECAUSE OF THE OTHER ASPECTS OF THIS ARGUMENT AND HOW A SAGE WORKS!

Stop making stupid arguments. You don't even understand what is being stated around you and what you are stating is of no matter to the argument. What you are saying is simple.

PEAK DAMAGE OF THE OVERALL ROTATION NOT THE SPECIFIC SPELL. IF IT DOES NOT RAISE THE POTENTIAL MAX DAMAGE OR PEAK ROTATIONS IT IS NOT A BALANCE FACTOR BY LOGIC. IT IS BELOW ALL OTHER SPELLS IN ROTATION AND CANNOT RAISE ANY ROTATION OR TOTAL DAMAGE OUTPUTS CONSIDERED HIGHEST IN THE GAME THAT DOES NOT SACRIFICE DAMAGE PURPOSELESS MEANING IT DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO BECOME A BALANCE FACTOR GIVEN THE PARAMETERS OF THE GAME. YES I'M INCLUDING OTHER FACTORS OF THE GAME WHILE YOU PLAY PRACTICALLY BUT THOSE ARE NOT AFFECTED LOGICALLY IN A WAY THAT IS A BALANCE FACTOR BECAUSE OF THE OTHER ASPECTS OF THIS ARGUMENT AND HOW A SAGE WORKS!

 

Stop making stupid arguments. You don't even understand what is being stated around you and what you are stating is of no matter to the argument. What you are saying is simple.

Any ideas why they would have removed WP bonus dmg from sages in melee?

No I don't. but from the current game mechanics there is no reason to leave it out.

Do you? I would love to learn that.

BTW I can see many potential reason why but none of them are applicable. They mostly consist of not finishing their work.

Here's how you argue it the reverse way to start testing that question logically.

What is the reason to put it exactly where it is?

yes it, is usable in lower levels. But what is the point of it not being usable in higher lvs. Especially when it is useful. It would basically be a short range project for emergencies. And the other attack obviously would be useful for different specs for regen. I see no reason it should not be usable at higher lv. they can easily make changes at lower lv if it's too high at lower lvs to make it balanced along the way. In fact it may make it more interesting to play as you lv up and gain more powerful other abilities slower making it more RP like as far as feel. it becomes useless around LV 10 from what I can remember about playing my sage, though I'm very fussy on that one.

No I don't. but from the current game mechanics there is no reason to leave it out.

Thanks. I'll give you some time to mull it all over and we can take this up again tomorrow if you insist.

ycoga one you need to shutup. Two you need to realize that you are lazy and have not put a single ounce or work into this argument. All you have done is ask others to pull their weight asking questions you would not and will not put in the work of answering yourself and then making mocking stupid unproductive comments. So why don't you get to work and make a productive intelligent comment that adds to the overall knowledge of the thread(that does not mean your opinion that mean prove your opinion and demonstrate it in a way others can understand fully how you got it and are correct.) or stop slandering people in the thread!

That definitely goes for you as well. If you can dish it out you should be able to take it too. I haven't shouted at you using caps. The reason I havent bought your argument yet is that it's flawed in two important ways:

1. Where's the evidence that BW uses rotations to determine dps balance, let alone the rotations that you created for this purpose? PLUS that it doesn't take other classes DPS into acct when it does?

2. You stated above that you don't know why they took away WP dmg in the beta.

With the above two in mind I am completely unconvinced that your argument has any merit, because the rotation-based analysis would not provide reason to remove WP from melee, if DblStrikes' max damage was 'always lower than the next highest abilities' min damage' and had no impact on the rotations' DPS output. You said,

IF IT DOES NOT RAISE THE POTENTIAL MAX DAMAGE OR PEAK ROTATIONS IT IS NOT A BALANCE FACTOR BY LOGIC

..Then why would this method provide BW reason to remove WP dmg from melee? Either BW made a mistake and removed it by accident late in the beta, or there's a problem with your logic. I claim the latter.

The result of this is that it invalidates your rotation-based approach to this problem.

I suspect that comparing DPS between classes and your rotation-based approach both have value but I can't get my head around why you're getting so personal and upset about it. The fact that you claim to have 'put more work in' by producing unfounded calculations is... well, I'm ignoring it. As it stands, my belief that BW would compare DPS outputs between classes when balancing makes more sense than analysis of rotations and max damage potential therein. Ultimately they would still have to compare it to other classes at some point.

I said before, take some time to figure out the more obvious failures in your approach and we'll continue another day - when you're calmer!

P.S. your definition of what's 'useful' in terms of DBLStrike at higher levels is completely subjective.

BW balanced sages melee dmg output by removing WP bonus dmg.

Yooga, they are not balanced it, they bane it.

And I don't see the point why you arguing with Aital? What I can see, that Aital put some effort to show up with real numbers what are absolutely follows the game mechanics logic to substantiate his claim.

And I don't see the point why you arguing with Aital? What I can see, that Aital put some effort to show up with real numbers what are absolutely follows the game mechanics logic to substantiate his claim.

I know, but as I said above, his calcs can't give a reason for BW to remove WP dmg. Just because the calcs are accurate doesn't mean thay're correct.

IF IT DOES NOT RAISE THE POTENTIAL MAX DAMAGE OR PEAK ROTATIONS IT IS NOT A BALANCE FACTOR BY LOGIC

The rotation-based analysis would not provide reason to remove WP from melee, if DblStrikes' max damage was 'always lower than the next highest abilities' min damage' and had no impact on the rotations' DPS output.

The result of this is that it invalidates your rotation-based approach to this problem

I know, but as I said above, his calcs can't give a reason for BW to remove WP dmg. Just because the calcs are accurate doesn't mean thay're correct.

IMO the reason was to make classic mmo class for the public (in an old school style) , so pure caster.

And it was not about balance.

But some of us don't like it this way , ) The question is, do BW listen to us and makes some steps to fix it or this concept of there is set in stone.

By the way, I made a vid, last night about my low lvl Sagehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYlsihsd5yQ&feature=plcp (I have a lvl 50 as well"Chlorianhost", just wanted to roll the quests again , )) Its a one night adventure in Beslasis (footage made by 4 hours game play)

Here you can see, that I use "double strike" in 1:27 but it has no meaning, I did this just for the animation : p

But if you take a look to my fight at 5:13, then it will be clear that when the situation is keen, the melee buff needed even if I wanna use it just for the animation , ) If in that fight (starts at (5:13) I would use just one double strike for fun and lost that 2 sec with it, I fail. So I can't even use it for the animation (RP)

To the OP and the supporters of this idea. Let me get this clear. You are asking for development time to be spend so you can see your lightsaber in use as a sage? Hmmm. I'd rather have development time spent for balancing issues. If you want to see your saber in use then choose one of the other three advanced classes, one of them being a consular option. Just because you hit for first 10 levels with your saber doen't mean you are a master of it. You learn basic attack and bolt deflection. You chose the advanced class that specialises in ranged force attacks. In the end of the day, from an RP point of view, with the exception of Yoda the most powerful of all and still doubt if he could beat Windu in a saber duel, which sage/sorc survived against an assasin or a knight in a 1v1 saber fight in the SW franchise? Qui-Gon vs Maul? Palpatine vs Mace? Dooku vs Annakin? You are still free to use your saber in the game in an ineffective basic way just like these guys did.

But I will accept your complain about wanting to use the saber. So instead of changing mechanics which will probably make the game imbalanced in new unpredicted ways, how about change the animation of some of the sage's skills to come from the saber like sentinels blade storm? Weaken mind, mind crush, tk throw and even healing abilities are a few options.

Bottom line though is that development time is better spent in balancing issues and new content. Also it seems to me that shadow/assassin is the right class for you.

To the OP and the supporters of this idea. Let me get this clear. You are asking for development time to be spend so you can see your lightsaber in use as a sage? Hmmm. I'd rather have development time spent for balancing issues.

"willpower to modifier melee dmg bonus modifier "

it should be a 10 minutes of programming , )

In the end of the day, from an RP point of view, with the exception of Yoda the most powerful of all and still doubt if he could beat Windu in a saber duel,

"willpower to modifier melee dmg bonus modifier "

it should be a 10 minutes of programming , )

Resulting still Ian weak attack. Then you just might go ahead and use it as it is if you want to see the animation. Even if it is 10 mins which I doubt cause in such huge programs and usage you don't take I to consideration all the other phases of a software engineering projects It is still 10 mins wasted.

I like how you select a 1/4 of my sentence and you comment on, but yes I'm sure. Windu is by far the best saberist in the current Jedi order according to the franchise.

Resulting still Ian weak attack. Then you just might go ahead and use it as it is if you want to see the animation. Even if it is 10 mins which I doubt cause in such huge programs and usage you don't take I to consideration all the other phases of a software engineering projects It is still 10 mins wasted.

Weak attack but reasonable. Some of us here who support this (LuciferinDNA and me for exemple), don't expect more of it.

We know Sages aren't supposed to be masters of swordmanship, so we don't ask to have amazing saber skills... but being weaker than a Black Sun's pirate at "sabering" is a bit excessive, you'll admit it(I suppose).

And personally, I hardly doubt that adding a single value (Willpower) in the list of modifiers of two stats (Melee damage & Melee crit chances) is a hard task, and I doubt it would need much precautions with other phases of the software to avoid the game to bug, because it should be an isolated part of the software.

By the way, these 10min could be a wasted time, but your idea about changing animations in order to make the Sage and Sorcerer make use of their lightsaber would require much more developping time (hours - mainly from art and graphics, then sound effects)

Resulting still Ian weak attack. Then you just might go ahead and use it as it is if you want to see the animation. Even if it is 10 mins which I doubt cause in such huge programs and usage you don't take I to consideration all the other phases of a software engineering projects It is still 10 mins wasted.

This is correct, but argues FOR the change not against. EVERY other class boost two attributes with their main stat, except Sages/Sorcerors. Plus these classes only have two lightsaber attacks to begin with. This change is primarily for people who want to once in awhile play a Jedi, even if it's a hit on DPS.

While, you can never know with computer programs, this is not a difficult change. It would take more than 10 minutes just in testing, but it's not a bad idea. Frankly it should have been like this all along. The loading screen tips tell you this is how it should work, but it doesn't. You're certainly entitled to think it's not worth it, but given that this would resolve a common complaint without a huge hit on resources, it suggests that this is a worthwhile suggestion.

This is correct, but argues FOR the change not against. EVERY other class boost two attributes with their main stat, except Sages/Sorcerors. Plus these classes only have two lightsaber attacks to begin with. This change is primarily for people who want to once in awhile play a Jedi, even if it's a hit on DPS.

 

While, you can never know with computer programs, this is not a difficult change. It would take more than 10 minutes just in testing, but it's not a bad idea. Frankly it should have been like this all along. The loading screen tips tell you this is how it should work, but it doesn't. You're certainly entitled to think it's not worth it, but given that this would resolve a common complaint without a huge hit on resources, it suggests that this is a worthwhile suggestion.

Honestly I'd just like to see it generate more force. A sniper runs out of energy, he can spam his basic attack to fill it back up, but he can stay at range, and in cover. A PT gets overheated, he can spam his basic attack and reduce heat, again while staying at range. A sage runs out of force, we have to sacrifice our HP to bring it back up, or charge into melee range to swing our little glowstick that does no real damage. At least make charging into melee range a high risk/reward proposition. Not that managing force is that hard, but we are the one class that can literally go weeks at a time without ever using our basic level 1 attack. The only thing I really ever use my saber strike for, is to interrupt a cap, and only if FiB, FW etc are on CD.

Honestly I'd just like to see it generate more force. A sniper runs out of energy, he can spam his basic attack to fill it back up, but he can stay at range, and in cover. A PT gets overheated, he can spam his basic attack and reduce heat, again while staying at range. A sage runs out of force, we have to sacrifice our HP to bring it back up, or charge into melee range to swing our little glowstick that does no real damage. At least make charging into melee range a high risk/reward proposition. Not that managing force is that hard, but we are the one class that can literally go weeks at a time without ever using our basic level 1 attack. The only thing I really ever use my saber strike for, is to interrupt a cap, and only if FiB, FW etc are on CD.

Really? You do realise that your balance to other classes regenerating force with standard hits is the fact you have an absolutely massive force pool? With proper rotation on a dummy (where you use more force than in a real boss fight if you are doing it right) you take like >4mins to run low. Other classes can run low in under 15seconds...