Ah...I have always loved how, when lack of an actual argument exists, the bigots and homophobes trot out the term 'disordered' as if there is something disorderly about homosexuality. Of course, the fact that anti-homosexual attitudes are based upon a philosophy that is out of step with the natural world, and is, itself, unnaturally rigid in terms of gender identity, expression, roles, sexuality, and, of course, just about everything else never seems to cross their mind.

 

In fact, the rigid structure of the societal thinking behind the idea that being gay is somehow disordered requires the chopping up of people's identities in order to fit into tiny little boxes that can be left out in the sun for someone like Brad Pitt to find. No wonder the society often resembles the application of the Procrustean bed from mythology.

 

And, of course, there is never an actual 'why' to the argument. This is how society is and we should just lop off your arms and legs so that you fit into the box we assign you so that everything has a place and everyone in theirs.

Yes, Se7en reference! I love that movie. I love anything by David FIncher really.

On a related note, that dude is a bigot and he'll likely be removed by the morning.

I know you're joking, kind of, but that really is what the thing is called.

That doesn't make it any less ridiculous

That doesn't make it any less ridiculous

Indeed - it's not even circular. The closest shape to the Internet would be a 'fractal'.

Indeed - it's not even circular. The closest shape to the Internet would be a 'fractal'.

Or a blood-splatter. Some kind of bodily fluid splatter, anyway.

I actually don't even like the word "blog". The word "Vlog" makes sense, 'cause it's a Video-Log, right? What exactly is a B-Log? Wouldn't P for Personal, I for Internet or C for Captain make more sense?

Sorry, going off-topic now. I blame the fact I'm sick as a dog and can't sleep

I apologize to anyone if I offended them when I went sky high earlier. :(

That wasn't against them. Man, I did come off harsh and I promise I'm not usually like that.

It's more that I was sick of the idea that this is writing/general development time wasted. Just because it's SGRs.

I'm backing off for a day or two. I'll let you guys know what TORWars says tomorrow.

I actually don't even like the word "blog". The word "Vlog" makes sense, 'cause it's a Video-Log, right? What exactly is a B-Log? Wouldn't P for Personal, I for Internet or C for Captain make more sense?

 

Sorry, going off-topic now. I blame the fact I'm sick as a dog and can't sleep

I believe it came from "Web log." Though if it were a "Computer(ized) log" then we'd have the clogosphere clogging up the internet.

Natashina, thank you very much for your reply to my post earlier. You are really on top of this issue, and I greatly respect you, and many other posters in this thread, for your hard work, thorough research, and dedication.

My purpose in making this post, is, and I know this sounds corny, to make you all feel a little better about this issue. I have an additional point that may (or maybe not, but I thought it was worth trying) be helpful in alleviating some of the frustration we're all facing.

Let me make sure I have my facts straight; please correct me if anything in the following paragraph is incorrect or wrong in any way.

All the evidence that we have so far, is that SGRAs are, in fact, being implemented with Makeb. Natashina said in her reply to my post, as well as numerous other times throughout this thread for the past several months, that she personally believes that it is true that SGRAs are being implemented with Makeb. The reason that we all are upset with EA/BW, is the fact that they are refusing to announce SGRAs, and they have been completely silent about the entire issue, presumably due to a company-wide gag order, instituted for unknown reasons. I believe we are all completely justified in being upset with EA/BW for this reason. We have a right to know what we're paying for before we pay for any new content.

But having studied business in college, I may be able to describe some vague generalities/nuances of the business world that might explain (but NOT justify) EAs actions or lack thereof.

I have a highly intelligent and very eloquent cousin, who, after graduating magna *** laude from a prestigious university with a double major in philosophy and psychology (he's also a SWTOR player), summed up this exact problem we're having right now in the most sophisticated sentence he could muster on the subject:

He said, "All big companies are stupid."

His larger point was that publicly-traded corporations are not logical or sensible beings the way intelligent humans are. They all operate frequently without rhyme or reason or meaningful direction, mired in a tangled mess of for-profit bureaucracy that stretches from janitorial regulations all the way up to the executive offices on the top floor. It was for this reason that the first management class I took in college single-handedly convinced me to change my major from management to economics. In essence, Dilbert cartoons and the TV sitcom "The Office" are 100% realistic depictions of corporate America - I'm not kidding about that. I have never read a book more nonsensical or idiotic than my first (and only) college Business Management textbook. That book was 300 pages full of text, yet it managed (no pun intended) to say absolutely nothing.

My previous paragraph may explain why EA/Bioware is not behaving rationally about this subject. Some time ago, for whatever reason, somebody on the top floor at EA said "Gag order about SGRAs for SWTOR" and after being covered with red tape, the order never got changed. I believe (though all are welcome to disagree with me) that SGRAs are, in fact, coming with Makeb, and it's gravely unfortunate and UNFAIR that EA/BW isn't saying that, but it pains me to see so many good people (such as all of you) get so upset just about not having advance notice, when we're dealing with an entity that, despite being made up of many very smart people, has the collective intelligence of a tapeworm.

If you've ever worked in the middle of a large, publicly-traded company, you've probably encountered lots of rigid rules and regulations which very quickly become nonsensical when applied to many common situations that the rule-writers weren't paid enough to think of when they were told to sit down and write the rule-books. Large companies eventually reach the point when they have nothing left to guide them but an autonomic nervous system governed by poorly-written rule-books full of ill-conceived rules, with no meaningful feedback making it from the bottom (or middle) to the top of the company. I think EA has been brushing that point for a while, despite it's small size (relative to, say, Exxon-Mobil).

Something else I would like to point out, is that while EA/BWs gag order about SGRAs is both unfortunate and unfair, it's not the only spectacularly stupid thing they've done with SWTOR. For example, patch 1.4 was pushed too early and it wasn't ready for live. The graphics engine got so royally messed up that I couldn't play for a month - it was bad. There are many other examples, you can all probably think of them. So, as you pointed out, Natashina, they are singling us out on the forums when it comes to redirecting all our threads to one or two places, but in a more general sense, they are indiscriminately stupid, making irrational decisions left and right about this and that.

In conclusion, I applaud any attempt to make EA/BW come clean about SGRAs. You're all great people for pursuing this the way you have. But we have ample evidence to lead us to the conclusion that SGRAs are, in fact, coming with Makeb, and while it's not right for them to be silent on the issue, I would hope that my fellow posters take solace in the fact that SGRAs are coming, and that EA is not deliberately trying to wrong us, it's just too stupid to know the difference, presumably compounded by intra-company breakdowns in the chain of communication.

I hope this helps.

Hugs to all!

Thanks for your business input. That was a fascinating read and it strengthened my resolve to continue on this course.

Ample evidence does not = a direct word from a current employee. I'm not taking anything else right now.

I'm not taking circumstantial evidence for SGRs. Even if I do believe it is coming. I very well could be wrong with that. If it is and they are so inclusive, they need to say it. I'm not letting them off of the hook and I can tell no one else already involved is going to either.

What we have at this point is hearsay, retracted information and public statements from ex-employees of the company. So I'm not going to settle for that and I don't think anyone else should either. It's baffling that it is this way.

They need to address the player base first. Not just some sort of surprise move one way or the other. This is cowardly and they will be held accountable for it. It makes no sense for them to double talk everyone. The EA article makes this whole situation make no sense at all.

Do it or don't, if a company is going to even approach this. My patience is completely gone. I'm taking it easy for the holidays, since there has been much madness in the world as of late. Now, they are asking for this group to pay for a story update without answering our question.

Again, why should this group, that's been waiting since at least March for EA/BW to say one word, settle for hearsay? We do have tools are our disposal and a lot of people do care about all of this.

No current employees are allowed to say a word. Not one word and most of us here know this very well. It's not for lack of trying or caring. Someone in a suit, someone in PR/management made this call for silence. So not even writers and developers are allowed to talk publicly about this.

Their ridiculous levels of fear make no sense. Given their history and their track record, the two faces of EA/BW and their pathetic attempts to "shield" or "hide" or otherwise censor the whole mess needs to be shown to everyone. And the word is out and spreading. It's spreading fast.

Yes, I know they have made double talk/backed out of things before. This isn't going to work though. Not this time, not with a story update coming.

Not after 9 months of silence. I'm sorry you think this is fruitless. I know that I would have been probably having fun with speculation right now if they had said something at the Livestream. They didn't, so we're going around them.

Yeah, yeah, standard business practices...

Here's my thing though: It shouldn't have to be that way.

They've talked pretty openly about a lot of things. I am going to do what I can to disallow them from just springing this on the player base. I really don't care if this is supposed business practices.

The one thing we can do as angry customers is to not let this slide. We can point out the multiple fallacies and the PR nonsense to members of the press and our greater communities as a whole. I'm not resting until we get an answer publicly. Customers can still affect business practices, so any sort of "norm" cuts no slack from me at all.

I don't care if that's supposedly, "just the way of business," or "well, that's EA for you." I'm not letting that stop me for a second either. Neither of those excuses should be any reason for the LGBT community to allow this to go on.

Plus, I'm sorry, but again...

There is several different kinds of content that BioWare is happy to talk about involving Makeb (and before then too.)

I wouldn't have kicked this up this hard this quick if they had finally addressed it at the Livestream with much of the other snippets of Makeb story info.

They had more than enough time since September and the little PvP developer comment to be public about this. This might be the story update, but again...I'm not going to take an offhanded comment from a PvP developer is any sort of official word. swtor.com never made it a point to direct the player there. Doesn't count.

Now, if they had come out and said on swtor.com, directly, "...at the end of the video, we do address SGRs! Stay tuned!" well, I would have called that an official word.

So I'm keeping on trucking. I do appreciate your input on all of this.

Try to write a letter. You might surprise yourself.

Oh, my favorite Traveling Wilbury is the king of the baritone, Mr. Ray Orbison. His vocals in, "You're not alone," still give me the chills to this day.

Inside joke.

I just wrote a short blogpost about this issue ( http://www.in-character.de/one-year-in/ ). It isn't very good, not very long, and whoa, my English is rusty, but it is heartfelt. Unfortunately I do not have a lot of readers, soooooo.... we need a lot more blogposts!

EDIT: I just shot off a short message to MMOmeltingPOT ( http://www.mmomeltingpot.com/ ), and informed them about the SWTOR podcast, the LezGetReal blogpost, and my own post. If they do a little post with these links there might be a spike of incomming traffic.

I just wrote a short blogpost about this issue ( http://www.in-character.de/one-year-in/ ). It isn't very good, not very long, and whoa, my English is rusty, but it is heartfelt. Unfortunately I do not have a lot of readers, soooooo.... we need a lot more blogposts!

Heya Joshi, ya able to give this a link from your site?

Just to clarify, when I made my last post, I was not suggesting that any regular poster on this forum or change their course of action in any way. The only entity that needs to change its course of action is EA/BW.

In addition, Natashina, I do not think your efforts are or will be fruitless. You, and everyone else involved, seem to be making significant progress toward getting EA/BW to issue an official word on SGRAs, and you're all awesome for doing so.

One thing I have noticed, is that you all seem very frustrated. Perhaps what I'm picking up on is just productive righteous indignation, but some of you guys seem to be very upset about this, rightly so, and not surprisingly.

My goal with my last post, was not to suggest any alternative course of action of any kind, it was just my (apparently lame) attempt to reduce everyone's overall level of frustration by shedding some light on what's probably going on within EA/BW, and thus make life ever so slightly more pleasant for all of you in the meantime, until your efforts succeed (which I think they will) and EA/BW issues an official word on SGRAs.

I sincerely apologize if I said anything that offended you or in any way appeared to devalue your efforts at getting EA/BW to issue an official statement on SGRAs. That was certainly not my intention. Quite the opposite, in fact.

While I only started posting a few days ago, I've been reading this thread for months and it's hard to see so many good people clearly unhappy with a a clearly bad situation. You all have every right to be unhappy about this issue, but I felt that I might have a decent shot at making your lives a little bit easier in the meantime.

This why I'm backing off some over the next few days. I probably won't even post very much for a bit.

Heart of a Jedi, passions of a Sith. I need to change my sig soon...

Pretty much I am that frustrated. I know everyone is. For the most part, I can keep a lid on it. It helps that I know we're making progress, and I'm channeling it into something healthy.

Or at least trying to.

I mean this to Likomg as well as well as any lurkers and supporters that I may have offended.

Occasionally I come off as shooting the messenger when I'm addressing a sore spot. I assure you that wasn't my intent. You seem like a decent fellow or gal.

I can easily tell that you can understand where we* are coming from and I can fully understand you giving us the possible business side of things.

*edit: Took me hours to realize I had used the wrong word!!!!! Haven't been sleeping well lately.

Thanks again for bearing with me tonight and continuing your support. I was serious about that letter though.

What can I say, I'm a tenacious lady.

I know I came off like too much of a royal ...Sith earlier. Okay, close enough to rhyme with the intended word.

I do apologize.

Again, you ended up accidentally touching a couple of sore spots. There's a few reasons why I can get like this sometimes though.

• The constant justification that is somehow required for even the desire for the knowledge of any update on this topic.
   
   
  
• Being told that writing for SGRs are a waste or that other PvE content comes first is starting to sting.
   
   
  
• The whole nonsense of EA being out as LGBT and yet allowing this kind of communication breakdown happen.
   
   
  
• Everyone chalking that up to, "Oh, it's that wacky EA again? Whatcha gonna do?"
   
   
  
• Being told flat out in an email from the press that "They said a bunch of times SGRs had been scrapped, at a cantina tour or something due to half the staff being gone."
   
  

Yep, I got that answer while I was trying to alert the press.

I persisted, double checked and let them know it wasn't true. That is swtorstrategies.com, who after fact checking, told me last night that they ended up writing an article about the matter. It should be up on their main site within the next few days.

Part of the reason for the defensiveness that has come from other posters. That's also why I'm determined.

We're constantly told either to give up or they won't care. Throw in a good amount of, "only a tiny minority of the players want this so it's not important," and you've got the recipe for me showing the signs of needing a few days away from the thread.

Over the course of about the last 9 1/2 months for me, I've seen a lot of well meaning people come in and reassure us that it's the way of business and the fact that we're LGBT just happens to be the target this time.

It's been more and more difficult to see that as any sort of comfort at all. If anything, I really think it needs to change. I still don't see how circumstantial evidence was a comfort. They've really done their best to bury any outward of this to the public, so it's almost like it's not so much "good evidence," as it starts to seem "what they let slip," after a point.

So again, I promise I'll retreat for now. I was being very sincere, and it was a good reminder that I've been at this for nearly a month straight...

At least I know that momentum is happening and things are cruising right along.

I mean it, I do apologize. That's why I put it that edit. Besides, it was a couple of notions that sent me sky high earlier, not so much you.

Ugh, yeah...not one of my better weeks. Plus, some stuff is going on with me RL so I'm not in the greatest mindset.

For now, for real, I'm going to back off. Except for the TORWars feedback, you won't see me for the next day or so.

I know I have a couple more PMs to write back. I'll be lurking.

Take care guys.

I believe it came from "Web log."

Correct. They started as web logs, then they were called 'blogs. Now, we've dropped the apostrophe.

 

For now, for real, I'm going to back off. Except for the TORWars feedback, you won't see me for the next day or so.

 

I know I have a couple more PMs to write back. I'll be lurking.

 

Take care guys.

Might be better for everyone's collective sanity to kick back and lurk for a few days - in here, at least. We already know most of the CMs are absent, so we're just hounding the 'weekend-crew', more or less. Plus, get some better vibes before Christmas... that's usually hectic enough for me.

Why would you want a poll? BW made a promise, it's up to them to keep it. And I'm not interested in the masses' answers. This is a matter of equality and inclusion, people don't have a vote on that.

I agree. Being a mod on another forum, polls really get people worked up over nothing. Not a good idea imo.

I'm sure you are aware, but I wanted to make it clear that not every straight person out there shares this guy's ideas. He does not speak for me and I'm pretty sure he does not speak for a lot of other people out there with no personal interest, but with an understanding as to why this is important for some people and why it is important to not let bigots win.

Straight as well, and a supporter. Greatly appreciated.

It has been confirmed by dev's that there WILL be more story content in Makeb/ RotHC. And in the guild summit last year, we were told that SGRAs would hopefully be out when more story is added. So I am hopeful we will see it in that expansion. And being an expansion, and a fairly large, after such a long time, I actually have a fairly good feeling it would be. I even wouldn't mind Pay2Gay; as to me it's better then pay2win as it's a fluff and optional thing that does not affect gameplay, much like Guild Wars Micro-transaction. Does anybody else share my feelings or feel like we may see it in there?

We may. My problem at this point really is the gag order that's seemingly installed. I find it childish and insulting.

There are plenty of examples of SGRs in the Star Wars IP. In the games, it began with original Knights of the Old Republic in 2003, with the companion Juhani, who would only romance female Revans.

Let's not forget Juhani and Belaya, regardless of Revan's sex.

And yes, for those straight male allies that want to see two girls kiss, that counts as roleplaying.

What about the straight [biological males] who don't identify as transgender but still connect better with female protagonists in fiction?

And as much as I adore Johnny Yong Bosch... the BH's Torian romance was just uneventful and dull. If they decide to do a same-sex romance arc with him, I sincerely hope they write something that's more interesting than the straight romance arc.

I believe it came from "Web log." Though if it were a "Computer(ized) log" then we'd have the clogosphere clogging up the internet.

That's correct. We blog on our web log(s).

Well, I've started in on the articles:

 

http://lezgetreal.com/2012/12/the-same-gender-romance-debacle-at-star-wars-the-old-republic/

 

Wonder if I should send this to Barryman, Woods and Green...see how they react then since I haven't heard anything form them about SGRA's.

Nicely done !

If I am wrong in my previous statement, then I would hope that they do not waste any resources on creating them. This is not due to any offense at SGRs, but more concern about the limited development resources this game has been left with; I would rather *new* story content (specifically class story content) be developed for *all* players rather than SGR story content for the likely few players (in comparison).

Thing is, there is no content for "all" players in the way you're writing it. Everybody has their likings and dislikings and mehs. I don't have Jedi Consular, so any further extension of its story line is not for me, but I won't say is a waste of resources just because I am not interested in it.

Let's say they have metrics showing that there are more Knights than Consulars, do you think it would be fair they only write and develop more content for the former just because there are "more" of them ?

There are people who only enjoy OGRs, people who only enjoy SGRs, other that enjoy both. Only one of those three groups can play the game how they want. That is not fair.

Yes, Se7en reference! I love that movie. I love anything by David FIncher really.

 

On a related note, that dude is a bigot and he'll likely be removed by the morning.

Yeah, but that's why I didn't quote him

And yes, occasionally I make references to Se7en.

And on a totally different note. I'm in a lot of pain right now, so I do not think that I will be posting again for a bit. I'm probably not going to be totally coherent or at least not sounding curt.

Nicely done !

Thank you very much.

I was thinking if anyone was daring enough to try that in General forums. Start a poll, since it isn't against the forum rules. Make sure that we get screenshots of saying things just like that and before the thread is deleted. Discrimination has finally showed the ugly face we've gotten to see for awhile.

 

 

 

 

 

Hey, don't look at me! Joshi used it first and she is an experienced blogger.

 

She also did a couple of excellent pieces about this whole SGR debacle. They are well worth the gander.

 

Her first one, talking about the thread and our treatment by EA/BW

 

Here's the other one mentioning that we've gone to GLAAD.

 

 

So that's why I used the word Blogosphere. When it comes to this game, there is no thinking about the children. It's a T for Teen game.

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist being a wise guy there.

I am sorry to burst your bubble but the LGBT community not getting their own way about every little demand does NOT equal discrimination. Just because you like to say it does, that does not make it so.

Tell me, do you try to tarnish the reputation of any organisation that does not comply with your demands by involving GLAAD?

If you buy a lottery ticket but don't win the lottery, is that discrimination as well?

Driz

Driz

If a person bought a losing ticket, than they don't receive a prize. If a person bought a wining ticket, than they receive a prize. If said person who bought the winning ticket was denied a prize because they are ____ (White, Black, Hispanic, Asian, Straight or Gay) than that would be considered discrimination. Nope, I fail to realize what you wrote had to do with this situation.

I guess I can try something.

Hammerpoint Interactive promised X amount of content in The War Z. On release players received Y amount of content in game. There was a big difference between what was promised and what was given. Individuals who bought the game were unhappy and began writing and making phone calls. The individuals sought to hold Hammerpoint accountable for what they promised.

Bioware Austin promised X content, they even provided a time frame when the content would be released. Time is about up, if it hasn't already expired; and Bioware Austin has not said a word. Those interested in X content are now worried/upset, more so because Bioware Austin has not said a word. So naturally those individuals are now looking to hold Bioware Austin accountable for what they had promised.

People have contacted GLAAD and other similar groups, but people have also contacted MMORPG.com and other similar sites in regards to this issue.

From this particular perspective, its just a bunch of gamers seeking to hold a company responsible for what they have said/promised.

As much as I am sure there are those who agree with that sentiment, it is not entirely the fault of BioWare for the late coming of such content. It also has to do with the industry itself. The switch to F2P was a huge loss. Combine that with several of their writing staff moving on to work on other projects or leaving the company, greatly affects them even more, and the BioWare team has suffered several other losses to their team due to cutbacks issued by EA.

Because of this, the timeline in which they may have initially predicted as to the release of this content would have changed drastically. Not only do they have to work in a shorter staff, but they still need to further develop the game, fix bugs, and add new content that has already been in the works. The Expansion coming of Spring 2013 is a huge project for them, as well as the introduction of a new playable species; Cathar (though with this timeframe I believe we may see more than just Cathar upon release of the Expansion).

That said, I do look forward towards the SGRA content. And while it has now been a Year since the release of "Star Wars: The Old Republic", and the only word we have as to this contents release is that they are working on it, I do not feel as if BioWare is going back on its word to apply this content. Only that, because of drawbacks within the company and industry itself, it will take them more time to complete them than originally estimated. I'm certain no one in BioWare wants to come out and say "We can't do it now" and suffer a backlash from the community. The only thing I can really for this is; "It'll be done when it's done. And when it's done, it'll have been worth the wait."

One further thing I will say is that we have all seen what happens when content or games are released before they're ready; bugs, graphics issues, systems errors, etc etc. For this type of content, which requires not only further Story writing, but Voice Over work for the characters involved, but also coding the scenes and Motion of the characters in the game. It's a LOT of work. And it's costly. I was actually told by Shinichi Wantanabe (Japanese Anime Director) that making 5min of Animation in Anime, costs around $20,000. Most all animation is done on computers now. And consider how much more it costs to do CGI.

The only thing I can really for this is; "It'll be done when it's done. And when it's done, it'll have been worth the wait."

As long as it's not Hickman saying that.

On a related note:

Hi Tatile!

 

I'm afraid I don't have anything new for you at the moment, and I apologize for the continued wait for more info. We're definitely keeping up with the questions everyone is asking, and I continue to read the thread in Story and Lore (and the one in GD) to keep up with any new questions. I know everyone has waited a long time to hear news about SGR, and as soon as we have anything new to share, we will. Sorry to sound like a broken record so often, but know that the community team is always working to get new info out about this. I hope you have a great holiday!

The record is now worn flat from constant use :|

They're at least allowed to acknowledged the continued existence of this subject, but just not in a capacity that anyone can see. I get the distinct impression that there's some random individual sitting on top of all this information, hyperventilating about the entire thing.